Lead ban & BASC

[Dave at kelton]

After 44 pages I do feel it is time to close this thread. We have steel shot, we have copper and zinc plated steel shot we have card cup wads. What we don’t have are commercially available alternatives in any quantity at a price we are prepared to pay. We do have all the ingredients given time to start working something out for ourselves. So let’s stop all of the internal political and, in some cases uninformed, comment and spend our time getting on with the sports we enjoy whilst developing the alternatives needed now the genie is out of the bottle.

I am Leaving the post now and will return to it when I have played about with the components, as I had too many years ago when wildfowling was hit, and have something to say that may help take us forward..

[8 shot]

12 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

After 44 pages I do feel it is time to close this thread. We have steel shot, we have copper and zinc plated steel shot we have card cup wads. What we don’t have are commercially available alternatives in any quantity at a price we are prepared to pay. We do have all the ingredients given time to start working something out for ourselves. So let’s stop all of the internal political and, in some cases uninformed, comment and spend our time getting on with the sports we enjoy whilst developing the alternatives needed now the genie is out of the bottle.

I am Leaving the post now and will return to it when I have played about with the components, as I had too many years ago when wildfowling was hit, and have something to say that may help take us forward..

I think the wildfowlers have seized the opportunity of pushing for mass producing non toxic shot and reducing the price,  as I guess they've being paying over the odds for a "cheap" but inferior product 

[Penelope]

15 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

was it ever anything else??

Succinctly put.

15 hours ago, motty said:

Most wildfowlers offset this when they do their marsh clean ups. You should see the amount of plastic bottles, beer cans, car tyres etc etc etc that we clear up each year. 

Our small amount of plastic pales into insignificance. 

👍

[lancer425]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

So now that is confirmed beyond all reasonable doubt and the 70 percent of game that did end up in the food chain now has no market what do you suggest? We stop shooting for 2, 3, 4, or 5 years while they manufacture enough wads and steel shot to satisfy demand? 

Why do we even need reasonable doubt, for what exactly?  It is just Embarrassingly silly to cling to Lead so much, people are difficult enough to pry away from mcdonalds never mind sell them meat shot with lead.

If there is a doubt there why go there? It is time for Lead to go, i was convinced long ago and more i read more i am against it. We have no need to use lead, the plastic wad thing will have to be a bridge we cross when we get a bridge in place, meanwhile we wade through with what we got now. at least we are crossing the river to non tox seen to be wanting to live on the right side.

.

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, 8 shot said:

I think the wildfowlers have seized the opportunity of pushing for mass producing non toxic shot and reducing the price,  as I guess they've being paying over the odds for a "cheap" but inferior product 

Not inferior just different. And wildfowlers are not pushing for anything, they are fine with bthe way things are right now. I personally am very up beat about the non lead shot available today, lots of options all of them good and offering performance never seen before, a genuine goal post mover for small bores, tell me when in history it was ever possible to shoot a flighting goose in a wind with 1/2 oz of 7s and have a real chance of a clean consistent humane  kill. These heavy weight shots are something else.

[Old farrier]

34 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Not inferior just different. And wildfowlers are not pushing for anything, they are fine with bthe way things are right now. I personally am very up beat about the non lead shot available today, lots of options all of them good and offering performance never seen before, a genuine goal post mover for small bores, tell me when in history it was ever possible to shoot a flighting goose in a wind with 1/2 oz of 7s and have a real chance of a clean consistent humane  kill. These heavy weight shots are something else.

Agree it’s different and as you know the heavy shots are a game changer 

the change and challenges are here and I hope to embrace it and continue shooting game And pigeons for the future 

If we don’t the powers that be will just ban the whole lot 

 

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, McSpredder said:

That report does not mention even a single case of an actual person’s health problem being caused by eating game killed with lead shot.

It does say “There appear to be no published studies in which B-Pb was related to ingestion rates of ammunition-derived lead in children.”   The same authors wrote the same thing in a 2012 paper, which suggests that neither they nor any other scientist thought it worth investigating in the intervening seven years.

Lead is toxic its a know target for all not just antis governments whoever. its time for it to go. move on leave behind slide into history . Its no big loss what is wrong with everybody.

 

3 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

I think if BASC want to fly the "eco" flag … then this would be sensible and broadly achievable for game and pigeon shooting (BASC don't influence clays so I'll not go there).

The next bit is a bit of 'devil v deep blue sea' … as fowlers are #winning by not using lead, but polluting by using steel in the only widely available and suitable wadding material which is plastic.

This conundrum is at the heart of the issue we face … easy to win on one, but not both.

In a way to try and achieve both puts us under the gun, but if we do nthis in steps . Which we can its not law. Just move off lead straight to steel. NOW!.

Plaswads or not at least any meat going into dealers will be no tox shot.

WHEN! non plas wad alternatives emerge start using them.   I am sure ammo firms will utilise any, and i feel gamebore will probably have something out pre season with these fibre wads they use already. Put it this way they would be fools if they dont. Gamebore are greedy they will want this money. 

Meanwhile this puts us Wildfowlers in a situation where we are moving on too, the plaswad issue will need addressing and Many of those that reload are already on this right now. As for ME!  I will comply when i practically can, but when my stock of plaswads have gone"not many" i will be done with Plaswads fir live quarry anyway.

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Agree it’s different and as you know the heavy shots are a game changer 

the change and challenges are here and I hope to embrace it and continue shooting game And pigeons for the future 

If we don’t the powers that be will just ban the whole lot 

 

It is the  oft quoted phrase "adapt or die" .

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Not inferior just different. And wildfowlers are not pushing for anything, they are fine with bthe way things are right now. I personally am very up beat about the non lead shot available today, lots of options all of them good and offering performance never seen before, a genuine goal post mover for small bores, tell me when in history it was ever possible to shoot a flighting goose in a wind with 1/2 oz of 7s and have a real chance of a clean consistent humane  kill. These heavy weight shots are something else.

As you rarely, if ever, post without at least one in it, here's a couple for you. Have you possibly shot yourself in the foot and put your (other) foot in your mouth? I've always said that our 'fowlers have done us proud with the way that they've got to grips with the NTS when they had to. Are you now saying that they would have done so willingly had they not been forced into it and if tomorrow it was decided that this had all been in error and lead is once again good to go that they wouldn't change back in a instant. I think you've left yourself without a leg to stand on.

Talk about a contradiction in terms. In one breath you're talking about our 'fowlers wanting for nothing and being fine as they are, but then you suggest that what they really want to do is pay a fortune for the opportunity to shoot the odd goose in a houlie. Which is it? As I see it the loaders are not going to produce a couple of hundred rounds per year to satisfy the occasional whim of a fowler who had one for Christmas when the guys who would use them by the tens or more in any one day and with the exception of an odd Croesus or two, can't afford them and they'll just stay stacked on the shelves. Remember, moving the goal posts more often than not is a retrograde step.

[Smokersmith]

42 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

In a way to try and achieve both puts us under the gun, but if we do nthis in steps . Which we can its not law. Just move off lead straight to steel. NOW!.

Thanks for the advice, but I’ll keep using non-tox  on the coast, and lead with fibre on game.

[lancer425]

45 minutes ago, wymberley said:

As you rarely, if ever, post without at least one in it, here's a couple for you. Have you possibly shot yourself in the foot and put your (other) foot in your mouth? I've always said that our 'fowlers have done us proud with the way that they've got to grips with the NTS when they had to. Are you now saying that they would have done so willingly had they not been forced into it and if tomorrow it was decided that this had all been in error and lead is once again good to go that they wouldn't change back in a instant. I think you've left yourself without a leg to stand on.

Talk about a contradiction in terms. In one breath you're talking about our 'fowlers wanting for nothing and being fine as they are, but then you suggest that what they really want to do is pay a fortune for the opportunity to shoot the odd goose in a houlie. Which is it? As I see it the loaders are not going to produce a couple of hundred rounds per year to satisfy the occasional whim of a fowler who had one for Christmas when the guys who would use them by the tens or more in any one day and with the exception of an odd Croesus or two, can't afford them and they'll just stay stacked on the shelves. Remember, moving the goal posts more often than not is a retrograde step.

No mistake. Sorry lets look at MY POST!.

Not inferior just different. And wildfowlers are not pushing for anything, they are fine with bthe way things are right now.

We really are if you reload the world is your oyster, lots of options lots of choices, you can go cheap you can go expensive. how deep are your pockets.

If funds are tight this year go cheap on your load. Big steel works well big guns help its all about what you want to do. If you want small bore then it is an option now be that at a price. BUT we do not have any shortage of options and cost as ever is down to your circumstances.

Yes i would like TSS to be £5 a lkilo. Bismuth to be £3 a kilo Steel to Be£1a kilo and A steel and SSB150 "5 a pound. but it is not and never will be. so if you want denser shot dig deep or do not bother. Steel works . We really do not need LEAD. It has gone we have moved on we honestly have.

Comercial ammo shooters. What can i say again steel its not letting us down, it could be better but its doing the job. Mamoths rhino in tens a mityad of other option RC atomic NSIs sagas RC hypr stl. All work, even with just a 3 inch Sporter the job gets done no issues. Yes as a whole wildfowlers are content, and many of us never saw lead so do not know or care. they go wildfowling thats the point getting hung up on shot type is not a concern for us we just compare performance not hanker after the past. Then is then Now is now.

I personally am very up beat about the non lead shot available today, lots of options all of them good and offering performance never seen before, a genuine goal post mover for small bores, tell me when in history it was ever possible to shoot a flighting goose in a wind with 1/2 oz of 7s and have a real chance of a clean consistent humane  kill. These heavy weight shots are something else.

I am upbeat SORRY if that bursts your bubble but , i see good things.

I am very pleased with my steel homeloads, i have the guns i use in line with what i use and have developed loads to work well i am as happy now as i have ever been in my wildfowling in nearly 50 years. I just do not remember being so in awe of lead  i would have ever given up the sport if it went. No way. was i upset when lead went YES so was everybody else i know.  But now NO. Trust us in this its not that bad just different. You all things being equal should be pleasantly surprised.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by lancer425

[8 shot]

I've just looked at Just Cartridges Non Toxic range. 

21 options from various manufacturers 

6 in 16,20,28 & 10 gauges 

15 in 12 gauge 6 or 7 not suitable for nitro proof Guns  and nothing for your 2 1/2" sxs and 2 in "eco wad" discounting bismuth. And no paper cases, which I can understand. So there are options for fibre wads and go non plastic-wads  if  Wildfowlers really want to. And that's it in 20+ years of development not much really if you think they've/ we've known this was coming. 

 

[BinaryB]

40 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I've just looked at Just Cartridges Non Toxic range. 

21 options from various manufacturers 

6 in 16,20,28 & 10 gauges 

15 in 12 gauge 6 or 7 not suitable for nitro proof Guns  and nothing for your 2 1/2" sxs and 2 in "eco wad" discounting bismuth. And no paper cases, which I can understand. So there are options for fibre wads and go non plastic-wads  if  Wildfowlers really want to. And that's it in 20+ years of development not much really if you think they've/ we've known this was coming. 

 

And I'll wager not a lot will change in the next 15 plus years either. Yes a few extra options coming on but nothing like the wholesale variety and supply in order for the UK shooting community to transition from lead. Mark my words. The genie is out of the bottle maybe, but it will be out of the bottle for a long long time before we see any significant impact.

Edited March 4, 2020 by BinaryB

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Why do we even need reasonable doubt, for what exactly?  It is just Embarrassingly silly to cling to Lead so much, people are difficult enough to pry away from mcdonalds never mind sell them meat shot with lead.

If there is a doubt there why go there? It is time for Lead to go, i was convinced long ago and more i read more i am against it. We have no need to use lead, the plastic wad thing will have to be a bridge we cross when we get a bridge in place, meanwhile we wade through with what we got now. at least we are crossing the river to non tox seen to be wanting to live on the right side.

.

So we wade through and carry on as before and get to the end of this seasons game shooting to find 70% of the millions of game birds cannot be sold  as nobody wants to eat game shot with lead. What are we going to do with them? and how do we then justify repeating the whole thing again the following year, no market = no shooting simple.
You can bang on about how we should  have moved to steel years ago but in practice it has not happened in anything but a very small niche way and it is very unlikely the situation will magically changed over the next few years given it has taken twenty years to get to where we are today. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by rbrowning2

[8 shot]

I'm largely distrusting of some of the evidence printed on a lot of thing, you can swing it any way you want it. It wasn't long ago if my memory serves me correctly that micro bead plastic was found in fish caught for human consumption but we carry on eating fish n chips, today apparently silicone dust on building sites is the next asbestos. People will still buy and sell all houses built with it in. I choose not to use plastic wads for various reasons.Give and take and choices  makes the world go round. Banning everything won't save the world but bring it to an end quicker, those before made there choices, I make mine. Those after us can make there's.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

So we wade through and carry on as before and get to the end of this seasons game shooting to find 70% of the millions of game birds cannot be sold  as nobody wants to eat game shot with lead. What are we going to do with them? and how do we then justify repeating the whole thing again the following year, no market = no shooting simple.
You can bang on about how we should  have moved to steel years ago but in practice it has not happened in anything but a very small niche way and it is very unlikely the situation will magically changed over the next few years given it has taken twenty years to get to where we are today. 

As i said agree or not, I PERSONALLY think we can only realistically do what we can do.  If by the time the season gets here, we have fibre wad steel available . fine use it. BUT! if not USE steel as is with plaswads , OR if Plaswads banned on your shoots, USE Lead fibre loads. Or If you can aford it Bismuth fibre loads.

At least a percentage of the game will be marketable. Its far from ideal but i can not see an alternative.   Any other  ideas Please share.

By the way i do not recollect me ever banging on about we should have moved to steel years ago. If you show me where i said it will put my hand up to it, or explain it in more detail. If you were using the term YOU, as in not me but People generally forgive my misinterpretation, i am just a hairy Harrised wildfowler not a scholarly gent.

Edited March 4, 2020 by lancer425

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, 8 shot said:

I've just looked at Just Cartridges Non Toxic range. 

21 options from various manufacturers 

6 in 16,20,28 & 10 gauges 

15 in 12 gauge 6 or 7 not suitable for nitro proof Guns  and nothing for your 2 1/2" sxs and 2 in "eco wad" discounting bismuth. And no paper cases, which I can understand. So there are options for fibre wads and go non plastic-wads  if  Wildfowlers really want to. And that's it in 20+ years of development not much really if you think they've/ we've known this was coming. 

 

I think it was not mainstream  thinking "plaswads in Wildfowling". Not until about 10years ago.The card cups were there as an option, but mostly were used in big bores.  The plaswad issue as been bubbling under the surface for some time, the was bio degradable plastic, but think it was still plastic an uv degradable.

Around 6/ 7  years ago it got mentioned on the PIT BLIND in the states and a few here started getting interested in it. It got discussed on here around 2 years ago, but it kind of got left that it was not illegal yet . and though some were not perusing it with vigour. i think a lot of wildfowlers given the option would love to lose plaswads if other options were there.

I know what makes us tick, and i know a lot right now are looking seriously at solving this problem looking for options that work.

[motty]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

As you rarely, if ever, post without at least one in it, here's a couple for you. Have you possibly shot yourself in the foot and put your (other) foot in your mouth? I've always said that our 'fowlers have done us proud with the way that they've got to grips with the NTS when they had to. Are you now saying that they would have done so willingly had they not been forced into it and if tomorrow it was decided that this had all been in error and lead is once again good to go that they wouldn't change back in a instant. I think you've left yourself without a leg to stand on.

Talk about a contradiction in terms. In one breath you're talking about our 'fowlers wanting for nothing and being fine as they are, but then you suggest that what they really want to do is pay a fortune for the opportunity to shoot the odd goose in a houlie. Which is it? As I see it the loaders are not going to produce a couple of hundred rounds per year to satisfy the occasional whim of a fowler who had one for Christmas when the guys who would use them by the tens or more in any one day and with the exception of an odd Croesus or two, can't afford them and they'll just stay stacked on the shelves. Remember, moving the goal posts more often than not is a retrograde step.

Tss etc is not available here in cartridge form - just loose shot. You may be surprised at how many fowlers are prepared to pay for this shot. I use both steel and heavy tungsten-based loads for my goose shooting. I spend far more on diesel getting to the marsh than I do on shot/cartridges. 

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

i think a lot of wildfowlers given the option would love to lose plaswads if other options were there.

There is another option, a fibre wad option.............. BISMUTH

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, motty said:

Tss etc is not available here in cartridge form - just loose shot. You may be surprised at how many fowlers are prepared to pay for this shot. I use both steel and heavy tungsten-based loads for my goose shooting. I spend far more on diesel getting to the marsh than I do on shot/cartridges. 

No actually. I know full well what a dedicated bunch they are. I was forced to knock it on the head many years ago while up at Findhorn. The state of my body renders me a liability on the marsh and I will not put others at risk. Howver, this whole topic as strange as it may seem when you consider just how many posts refer to it is not just about 'fowlers. Thinking back at what you used to display, could you afford tungsten when shooting the number of pigeon that you did - factory loads at that, not everyone reloads?

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

There is another option, a fibre wad option.............. BISMUTH

Yes and i drop bismuth myself its cheap, be fine for pigeons and game. Big stuff we need in fowling. its mould or buy to drop it is just about impossible on typical droppers. Buying the shot or worse still loaded ammo will be proportionately more money.

[lancer425]

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

No actually. I know full well what a dedicated bunch they are. I was forced to knock it on the head many years ago while up at Findhorn. The state of my body renders me a liability on the marsh and I will not put others at risk. Howver, this whole topic as strange as it may seem when you consider just how many posts refer to it is not just about 'fowlers. Thinking back at what you used to display, could you afford tungsten when shooting the number of pigeon that you did - factory loads at that, not everyone reloads?

I do not think many if any fowlers will just use Toungsten HWs for all they do, its not necessary for one thing, it would be silly money for another, & in the other Often overkill "if such a thing exists". Most like moty will run a mixture of most types of shot in different guns. Like me in Ten i use mostly steel Because i like how BBB steel 4.83Mm works in my Guns and particularly through a .720 terror choke. I am quite happy with Ts too in that combination, but F i needed .705 to do what i wanted. So i stuck with the .720 , that liked BB bismuth too and smaller steel and Other shot in my perticular gun. My mates Gold camo 30 inch ten likes the .705, its often this fussy when working things up as i am sure you are well aware. 

The TSS and HWs are an awesome shot type and the advantages they can bring to the conundrum is considerable to say the least. its not all about extending range not at all, but can mean these smaller bored guns like 20s 28s and .410s up to a pint can be surprising performers.  Its down to money really. But as moty says DIESEL thats the biggie, i said this other day on the WF forum.

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I do not think many if any fowlers will just use Toungsten HWs for all they do, its not necessary for one thing, it would be silly money for another, & in the other Often overkill "if such a thing exists". Most like moty will run a mixture of most types of shot in different guns. Like me in Ten i use mostly steel Because i like how BBB steel 4.83Mm works in my Guns and particularly through a .720 terror choke. I am quite happy with Ts too in that combination, but F i needed .705 to do what i wanted. So i stuck with the .720 , that liked BB bismuth too and smaller steel and Other shot in my perticular gun. My mates Gold camo 30 inch ten likes the .705, its often this fussy when working things up as i am sure you are well aware. 

The TSS and HWs are an awesome shot type and the advantages they can bring to the conundrum is considerable to say the least. its not all about extending range not at all, but can mean these smaller bored guns like 20s 28s and .410s up to a pint can be surprising performers.  Its down to money really. But as moty says DIESEL thats the biggie, i said this other day on the WF forum.

I wouldn't have a clue but funnily enough I was talking to Motty who indicated that as many are prepared to pay for it, I assumed that was because they intended to use it.

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I wouldn't have a clue but funnily enough I was talking to Motty who indicated that as many are prepared to pay for it, I assumed that was because they intended to use it.

 

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I wouldn't have a clue but funnily enough I was talking to Motty who indicated that as many are prepared to pay for it, I assumed that was because they intended to use it.

OH!........ OH! Dear, if ever there was a furtive glacé accompanied with a scowl in text this is it. My sincere apologies .

[AULD YIN]

• I thought  zealots where confined to wild justice packham greens etc but  one definitely stands out on here 

Edited March 4, 2020 by AULD YIN