toontastic Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, SpringDon said: It’ll be fine, just furlough everybody until there’s a vaccine. No body should have to work in this apocalypse (except health, utilities, online shops and supermarkets). WHO are now saying covid 19 and deaths from it could be here to stay. Some scientists believe it's possible a vaccine may never be found. At what stage do we say enough is enough. More and more people seem happy to be furloughed forever, but it's just not sustainable. We need to have a cut off point, but people say one death from covid 19 is one too many to risk. So do we also now start lockdown every flu season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 32 minutes ago, SpringDon said: It’ll be fine, just furlough everybody until there’s a vaccine. No body should have to work in this apocalypse (except health, utilities, online shops and supermarkets). Its not going away and people will die, that’s not very nice and it seems a lot of people can’t accept that developed countries can be humbled in this way. The new antibody test will hopefully answer the question about how many have had it with mild symptoms. Perhaps the mortality will prove to be a lot lower than currently believed. Sounds lovely but a massive departure from the economic reality of how the world spins. History has shown us that you can’t make money or wealth by just printing more money. Indeed, if 90% of the population are doing nothing but drawing off the state, then where is that money coming from? 43 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Another road leading back to Dr Fergusons "Gold Standard" model which it turns out is a steaming pile of manure (at best). Badly written software has crashed a few things over the years but the global economy is a new one as far as I'm aware.... Bang on. If the government hadn’t been spooked by the nonsense modelling we’d still have the same amount of inevitable deaths (you just can’t stop it from knocking off sick 80+ year olds) but we would at least have an economy left. The options are all dreadful but some are less dreadful than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Mungler said: Bang on. If the government hadn’t been spooked by the nonsense modelling we’d still have the same amount of inevitable deaths (you just can’t stop it from knocking off sick 80+ year olds) but we would at least have an economy left. The options are all dreadful but some are less dreadful than others. Not so. If the modelling had not been done and we didn't do the lockdown the deaths would be more like 250,000 to 500,000 (or more) and the NHS would have been totally overwhelmed. Workers would not be happily carrying on with their jobs because most of them would be in mourning or too terrified to go to work. Bodies would be piled up in every park in every city. We have this high number of deaths despite the modelling and lockdown and the NHS has coped. (Just). The world has changed and we just better all get used to that fact. Edited May 14, 2020 by Grandalf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 40 minutes ago, toontastic said: WHO are now saying covid 19 and deaths from it could be here to stay. Some scientists believe it's possible a vaccine may never be found. At what stage do we say enough is enough. More and more people seem happy to be furloughed forever, but it's just not sustainable. We need to have a cut off point, but people say one death from covid 19 is one too many to risk. So do we also now start lockdown every flu season. Something just came to me while making a brew, they are now saying that people in lower paid manual jobs are more at risk, they keep saying about how its unfair and how security guards and bus drivers have died, I haven't seen any mention of supermarket staff? Has there been anything said about them? Have I just missed it, they are obviously being exposed to the general public day in day out. While a lot of people are getting paid more for sitting at home, and in some cases don't look like going back anytime soon?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Grandalf said: Not so. If the modelling had not been done and we didn't do the lockdown the deaths would be more like 250,000 to 500,000 (or more) and the NHS would have been totally overwhelmed. Workers would not be happily carrying on with their jobs because most of them would be in mourning or too terrified to go to work. Bodies would be piled up in every park in every city. We have this high number of deaths despite the modelling and lockdown and the NHS has coped. (Just). The world has changed and we just better all get used to that fact. Hang on. The problem here is that decisions were made based on a very flawed model and it's the same model that projected the 250,000 to 500,00 deaths if we'd continued to follow the herd immunity path. We changed our plan based on the model, Sweden saw the model for what it is and ignored it. I am told there are numerous other models out there which have much better correlation to the trends across various countries. The number of deaths has nothing to do with the model and on the basis that the model is pants, we have no real measure of knowing how different things would have been without the lockdown in place. I'd suggest however that Sweden provides a useful data point around this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 I accidentally watched the BBC news the other day. It focused on the case of a 95 year old woman who had died from (with?) Corona. The report was full of anguished relatives, poignant look backs over the lady's life and mood music. She was 95! Had she gone to bed one evening, and not woken, there would have been sorrow but no surprise at her passing. As large as the failings are in not protecting care homes, many of these are people for whom a forthcoming death would not be unexpected ( speaking from recent personal experience) I guess my point is that it was more playing up the the 'deadly virus' by the BBC, when the poor lady would more than likely have passed from any number of causes a younger person would fend off. That said, the gov failed in not protecting them better. No flippancy / callousness intended in these comments in what must be distressing times for the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 3 hours ago, SpringDon said: It’ll be fine, just furlough everybody until there’s a vaccine. No body should have to work in this apocalypse (except health, utilities, online shops and supermarkets). Its not going away and people will die, that’s not very nice and it seems a lot of people can’t accept that developed countries can be humbled in this way. The new antibody test will hopefully answer the question about how many have had it with mild symptoms. Perhaps the mortality will prove to be a lot lower than currently believed. Unbelievable. No appreciation at all of basic economics. In your little dream world where is the money coming from to pay for this never ending furlough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 the way this is going couple of weeks we will be pretending it’s not happening you will be left to get on with dying mother nature needs to remove us from the planet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, AVB said: Unbelievable. No appreciation at all of basic economics. In your little dream world where is the money coming from to pay for this never ending furlough. It comes from the same place that they bailed out the bankers from, it is a never ending source of Socialism (you and my money) bailing out Capitalism every ten years or so and they have the audacity to say Capitalism works ! You just print money and put it to the back of your mind, what countries such as the US (23 trillion debt), Japan and the UK owe already is utterly and completely beyond pay back anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, clangerman said: the way this is going couple of weeks we will be pretending it’s not happening you will be left to get on with dying mother nature needs to remove us from the planet Ok then say there's no vaccine available for 5 years and people still dying at 100 a day. How many years do we stay in lockdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, toontastic said: Ok then say there's no vaccine available for 5 years and people still dying at 100 a day. How many years do we stay in lockdown. we don’t it’s pointless now it needs to end and suck it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 27 minutes ago, AVB said: Unbelievable. No appreciation at all of basic economics. In your little dream world where is the money coming from to pay for this never ending furlough. I think he's said it tongue in cheek, or that's how I read it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, toontastic said: Ok then say there's no vaccine available for 5 years and people still dying at 100 a day. How many years do we stay in lockdown. A hundred a day , that’s less than 7% of our normal daily mortality toll, but people have only focused on this one cause of death. 33000 deaths but more than 68000 births in the same period!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 11 minutes ago, Jaymo said: A hundred a day , that’s less than 7% of our normal daily mortality toll, but people have only focused on this one cause of death. 33000 deaths but more than 68000 births in the same period!!!! 33,000 deaths attributed to the virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mice! said: I think he's said it tongue in cheek, or that's how I read it? Me too, but an emoji at the end might have helped removed doubt 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 31 minutes ago, Mice! said: I think he's said it tongue in cheek, or that's how I read it? I thought that too 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Grandalf said: 33,000 deaths attributed to the virus. Even at the ultra conservative end of the scale (£300B bill), that's £9.09M cost to UK PLC per death, now that's what you call going out with a bang... No wonder the government are happy to field questions on testing targets and PPE shortages, a beautiful distraction from the real elephant in the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Even at the ultra conservative end of the scale (£300B bill), that's £9.09M cost to UK PLC per death, now that's what you call going out with a bang... No wonder the government are happy to field questions on testing targets and PPE shortages, a beautiful distraction from the real elephant in the room. But Jeremy Corbyn's brother Piers says there is no pandemic its all just a plot. You can't both be right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 talking of the cost with the governments endless message we are all in it together why don’t the likes of branson and co foot the bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Vince Green said: But Jeremy Corbyn's brother Piers says there is no pandemic its all just a plot. You can't both be right Well, I'd hate to put you on the spot and ask you to choose which one is "less wrong than the other" 😛 I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's his view on what the plot is? Actually, no need to answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, clangerman said: talking of the cost with the governments endless message we are all in it together why don’t the likes of branson and co foot the bill Just because he is a bit richer than you and I? Why don’t we all foot the bill- maybe strip all pensioners of private pensions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, clangerman said: talking of the cost with the governments endless message we are all in it together why don’t the likes of branson and co foot the bill why should they, are they responsible in some way? People are always banging on about fairness - let's all have a flat rate bill - all in it together all pay the same amount - fair as fair can be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Jaymo said: Just because he is a bit richer than you and I? Why don’t we all foot the bill- maybe strip all pensioners of private pensions speaking as one of the greedy who used to pay a bag of crumbs while keeping the cake for myself there is nothing wrong with earning a few quid but you get to the point where it’s pure GREED and that’s WRONG! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Hamster said: It comes from the same place that they bailed out the bankers from, it is a never ending source of Socialism (you and my money) bailing out Capitalism every ten years or so and they have the audacity to say Capitalism works ! You just print money and put it to the back of your mind, what countries such as the US (23 trillion debt), Japan and the UK owe already is utterly and completely beyond pay back anyway. I think you will find that capitalism bails out socialism every 10 years. Whether a country can actually pay back its debt is somewhat irrelevant. What is important is that that there is a belief that they can and will and hence fiscal discipline to keep it under control. Which is where socialism falls down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted May 14, 2020 Report Share Posted May 14, 2020 1 minute ago, clangerman said: speaking as one of the greedy who used to pay a bag of crumbs while keeping the cake for myself there is nothing wrong with earning a few quid but you get to the point where it’s pure GREED and that’s WRONG! I've profiled you and this is what I've come up with. It's ok for people to go shooting because YOU want to go shooting. YOU don't fish or play golf so relaxing restrictions to allow people to participate is irresponsible and is putting lives at risk. It's ok for YOU to make money, but anyone making more us just greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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