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sam triple

Is it possible?

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Is it possible for a dog to bring another one out of a shy state , reason I’m asking is a mate has a youngish cocker more or less scared of its own shadow , last Saturday I took my young pup along with mate and his cocker to clear wind fallen trees ,last time my mate was doing it by himself as soon as a chain saw started his dog sat in his car and refused to move , this time we had two saws running and a Manatou loader to clear the wood ,both dogs were happily playing together without a care in the world , so is it possible, next time I’ll take my air rifle as it was even scared of one of these being fired 

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Strange, my cocker was gun shy and would hide under the motor when shooting, mate came one day with his golden lab and the pair of them sat in the hide together, they even went out together to get the retrieves.

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You have answered your own question. Yes often used for introduction to water etc. Can also teach each other bad habits so you need to be careful when and why you do it. There is a good reason for generally training dogs on their own.

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I can't understand why your mate would take a nervous dog anywhere near a chainsaw because its a noise that a lot of dog's would have to be introduced to. When you took your dog the next time was the dog's loose as they were playing while the two of you were cutting the tree's,if so its seems like a resipe for disaster. Taking the air rifle aint a good idea either . Introductions to anything should be done gradually and in a controlled way but at the end of the day it's up to you.

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1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

You have answered your own question. Yes often used for introduction to water etc. Can also teach each other bad habits so you need to be careful when and why you do it. There is a good reason for generally training dogs on their own.

Bang on. 

People get it into their heads they their older dog will "teach" their younger dog. Dogs learn things from experience, they don't communicate and school one another, it's far far easier for a dog to learn bad habits off your other dog than it is good ones. 

As Dave says, there's a reason good trainers train them on their own. 

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Posted (edited)

Valid points and taken on board ,which will be a real shame for the cocker to see him work the cover is a joy but as you say I can’t risk him compromising my dog , I should have added my mates dog goes everywhere with him and his quite happy to sit in a tractor cab all day with ,and is well used to farm machinery 

Edited by sam triple

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That's fair enough, never compromise on your training as you will only get one chance to get it right otherwise it's hard work to correct it later, read Lloyd90 post about Ted. 

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I have a lab bitch, 3 1/2 yr old which has always been very nervous. She is now used to farm machinery, has never been gun shy, but still hates traffic. She has done two seasons picking up and peg work and stalks with me with a full bore. No signs of nerves when working, quite the opposite, she is very bold.

This dog runs a mile if I fire an air rifle.

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Had a cocker as a pet scarred stiff of the hover took her out when she was nine years old with the wife and kids to the farm. Never been near any guns before I fired my shotgun and she was well up for it every time the gun came out she was excited  but had not been trained for shooting  so  she missed out 

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Air rifles create a weird crack more than a bang, might be scaring the dog who knows. 
 

To be blunt (but trying not to be rude) as has been said it’s not your problem, If your mate wanted to sort the dog he could have done long before now but appears not to have done so. 

I wouldn’t train my dog with his. I won’t train my dog with anyone who doesn’t have similar standards to me or is a decent worker as it’s just a bother for no gain.  

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42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Air rifles create a weird crack more than a bang, might be scaring the dog who knows. 
 

To be blunt (but trying not to be rude) as has been said it’s not your problem, If your mate wanted to sort the dog he could have done long before now but appears not to have done so. 

I wouldn’t train my dog with his. I won’t train my dog with anyone who doesn’t have similar standards to me or is a decent worker as it’s just a bother for no gain.  

Not necessarily his fault he was given the dog by a game keeper who was moving onto a new job ,was told he was trained and good to go ,think he meant house trained though 😂

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18 minutes ago, sam triple said:

Not necessarily his fault he was given the dog by a game keeper who was moving onto a new job ,was told he was trained and good to go ,think he meant house trained though 😂

Poor dog, wonder what the keeper did to "train it" that's made it like that :hmm: 

People often say "keeper bred" about dogs as if that's something good ... but some of the "training" I have heard of them doing is insane ... one lad let his young cocker run into the electric fence around a pen so it supposedly wouldn't chase birds... the dog never hunted again 😞 

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monkey see monkey do    easier to train a pup alongside another dog        but like kids they learn the bad habits and swear words faster than the good stuff      play builds confidence and is a distraction to strange things and sounds  👍

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On 27/05/2020 at 20:57, Lloyd90 said:

Poor dog, wonder what the keeper did to "train it" that's made it like that  

People often say "keeper bred" about dogs as if that's something good ... but some of the "training" I have heard of them doing is insane ... one lad let his young cocker run into the electric fence around a pen so it supposedly wouldn't chase birds... the dog never hunted again 😞 

I’ve heard of that too

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Well after a few more sessions in the woods with chains saws etc , the last one with just my mates dog ,the noise of the saw no longer bothers him ,quite happy to sit or wander about , so we thought we’d try him with mates air rifle and silencer atached dog was fine with the gun in my mates hand but as soon as it went to his shoulder even without firing the dog was a mess again , so I guess he’s just destined to be a pet which is a real shame ,because to see him work the cover is a real treat 

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4 hours ago, sam triple said:

Well after a few more sessions in the woods with chains saws etc , the last one with just my mates dog ,the noise of the saw no longer bothers him ,quite happy to sit or wander about , so we thought we’d try him with mates air rifle and silencer atached dog was fine with the gun in my mates hand but as soon as it went to his shoulder even without firing the dog was a mess again , so I guess he’s just destined to be a pet which is a real shame ,because to see him work the cover is a real treat 

If the dogs working cover he’s not going to shoot anything flushed with the air rifle 

a bit of time and effort and a different gun sound and he maybe just get over the problem 

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I have a nervous Labrador bitch. Not gun shy with shotguns. Stalks with me with a .308 as well. She will not go near an air gun! Go figure?

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5 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have a nervous Labrador bitch. Not gun shy with shotguns. Stalks with me with a .308 as well. She will not go near an air gun! Go figure?

I’ve had a few really good bold gun dogs not a problem 

until a thunderstorm petrified 

fireworks cowering under the sofa 

still good gun dogs 

you have to accept them for what they are 👍

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1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

I’ve had a few really good bold gun dogs not a problem 

until a thunderstorm petrified 

fireworks cowering under the sofa 

still good gun dogs 

you have to accept them for what they are 👍

Yeah, mine is really bold when working too.

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Posted (edited)

It all depends on every dog and the other dog too, as mostsay better to train 1 1 but in some cases letting a dog run with other dogs can help massively.

I know now I routinely use letting my young dogs run with older 1s, things like recall let all my dogs run together the split second pup catches up to them blow recall so other dogs turn and come back, pup gets used to hearing recall blow turning round and bombing back to u.

Same with water get pups to chase play with older dogs send them in a shallow warn water on a nice sunny day.

But again it's more just putting foundations in than actual training.

And ur right they will learn bad habits faster almost instantly, but bad habits are always more fun wether dog or human😀

 

I'd say very far from over for dog try telling ur mate to read up on ways to intro to gun shot loads off different ways.

Does it mate clap hands drop feed bowls etc when near the dog.

Does his dog retrieve?

Plenty of good advice how to intro a dog to gun shot but it needs to be getting a benefit from it, ie retrieve or something with a nervous dog or young dog the normal advice was always get a mate to help with a starter and dummy, so he can stand at distance and as soon as it heard a bang it's marks dummy and u send it.

Must admit nowadays I just let my young dogs free run with older 1s ( usually wait till 8 or 9 months old) let dogs get 30-50m away and fire starter pistol. The old dogs automatically stop and look for the game falling and young dogs never seem to bat an eye.

 

I still have a mate who takes it out on a shoot day and shoots walked up over it, crazy to me. But he says done it for years never had a problem, but in my opinion terrible advice he's just been very lucky. Just the old fashioned way

And if ur unlucky u will probably have ruined it and very hard to fix.

 

Training really needs to be done solo but I'm sure his dog could be conditioned while running/playing with other dogs.

But u really want the other dogs to be obedient so it will learn manners/good habits from them but dogs will certainly get confidence from the other dogs not being scared of water/gunshot etc

 

 

Ps As has been said having any dog free near a chainsaw is just a recipe for disaster. Falling branches, rolling trunks and moving chain.

Just takes the dog to come in for attention as u turn with chain still moving.

If ur mate is a farmer chances are his chain will be hanging off saw anyway still keep going after stopping and most can't work the chain brake

Edited by scotslad

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My bitch is 3 1/2 now and still runs under the table if you clatter a feed bowl but not gun shy at all, worked two seasons and had thousands of head shot near her. I began with a starting pistol 100 yards away, then a fourten gradually getting closer.

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7 hours ago, Old farrier said:

If the dogs working cover he’s not going to shoot anything flushed with the air rifle 

a bit of time and effort and a different gun sound and he maybe just get over the problem 

No we tried him on our diy shoot worked the cover like a demon until first shotgun went off and he was gone , we were trying the air rifle out to see if he minded it and did , so a pet he will be

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5 hours ago, scotslad said:

It all depends on every dog and the other dog too, as mostsay better to train 1 1 but in some cases letting a dog run with other dogs can help massively.

I know now I routinely use letting my young dogs run with older 1s, things like recall let all my dogs run together the split second pup catches up to them blow recall so other dogs turn and come back, pup gets used to hearing recall blow turning round and bombing back to u.

Same with water get pups to chase play with older dogs send them in a shallow warn water on a nice sunny day.

But again it's more just putting foundations in than actual training.

And ur right they will learn bad habits faster almost instantly, but bad habits are always more fun wether dog or human😀

 

I'd say very far from over for dog try telling ur mate to read up on ways to intro to gun shot loads off different ways.

Does it mate clap hands drop feed bowls etc when near the dog.

Does his dog retrieve?

Plenty of good advice how to intro a dog to gun shot but it needs to be getting a benefit from it, ie retrieve or something with a nervous dog or young dog the normal advice was always get a mate to help with a starter and dummy, so he can stand at distance and as soon as it heard a bang it's marks dummy and u send it.

Must admit nowadays I just let my young dogs free run with older 1s ( usually wait till 8 or 9 months old) let dogs get 30-50m away and fire starter pistol. The old dogs automatically stop and look for the game falling and young dogs never seem to bat an eye.

 

I still have a mate who takes it out on a shoot day and shoots walked up over it, crazy to me. But he says done it for years never had a problem, but in my opinion terrible advice he's just been very lucky. Just the old fashioned way

And if ur unlucky u will probably have ruined it and very hard to fix.

 

Training really needs to be done solo but I'm sure his dog could be conditioned while running/playing with other dogs.

But u really want the other dogs to be obedient so it will learn manners/good habits from them but dogs will certainly get confidence from the other dogs not being scared of water/gunshot etc

 

 

Ps As has been said having any dog free near a chainsaw is just a recipe for disaster. Falling branches, rolling trunks and moving chain.

Just takes the dog to come in for attention as u turn with chain still moving.

If ur mate is a farmer chances are his chain will be hanging off saw anyway still keep going after stopping and most can't work the chain brake

No said previously he got the dog from the old keeper next door to where he works told he was good to go ! He was about 18 months old when got him , obedience is good gets in the tractors sit on the back of the fork lift when mates using it ,but just hates guns , used to run from chain saw etc until I took my dog up there one day they played we worked and it’ seemed to cure him of that , But still hates guns ,mates only a farm hand all chains etc he bought him self and maintains to a high standard 

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So why don't you try letting it play with your dog and slowly over  a couple of weeks introduce it to gun fire the correct way.

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1 hour ago, sam triple said:

No we tried him on our diy shoot worked the cover like a demon until first shotgun went off and he was gone , we were trying the air rifle out to see if he minded it and did , so a pet he will be

That’s fine it was just a thought no good putting the time in to a sinking ship 👍👍👍

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