Care Home Deaths

[norfolk dumpling]

This is one aspect of the pandemic I suspect will generate a lot of investigation in the near future. We got caught up in this during the early days of lockdown and it was a horrible situation for my wife to handle: her 98yo dad - very poorly with cancer/heart probs - suffered a minor accident and because of his other issues got rushed into A&E late pm. Next day when my wife rang to see how he was she was told ok, done several tests, sending him to an OAP home as he has no care at his house! This is in accordance with Gov legislation - really??!To cut a long story short Wife pointed out he has an extensive care package at home (not the best but lots of agency carers and he is near end of life and wants to die at home) so very reluctantly he was sent home BUT when he arrived back his cannula was  still in, Paramedics didn't like looks of him and got doctor to him - he had severe were infection, thrush infected patch on his belly and severe bed sores! Anyhow Ambulance team got him sorted but no doubt here he would have died in a care home. Very very distressing.

[johnphilip]

There was a guy on the news the other day the owner of a private  care home openly  saying he was taking in old people  with Covid-19 . Seems like money before health to me .

[Dave at kelton]

In September last year The Guardian in relation to another matter on care homes reported that 84% of beds in the U.K. are privately run. It is worth a read as it highlights the issue. It also speaks volumes for those care home operators blaming the government. They are privately run for profit short and simple!

[johnphilip]

1 minute ago, Dave at kelton said:

In September last year The Guardian in relation to another matter on care homes reported that 84% of beds in the U.K. are privately run. It is worth a read as it highlights the issue. It also speaks volumes for those care home operators blaming the government. They are privately run for profit short and simple!

Is the right answer  .

[stagboy]

The care home sector is almost entirely outside the NHS. Decisions about where discharge from hospital are made by NHS doctors, not the government. It may surprise some to learn that the rate of Covid deaths in care homes as a proportion of the UK total is actually lower than comparable rates in most of Europe. The exception is Scotland, which seems to have much higher proportion of Covid care home deaths than England. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by stagboy

[clangerman]

17 minutes ago, stagboy said:

The care home sector is almost entirely outside the NHS. Decisions about where discharge from hospital are made by NHS doctors, not the government. 

bang on the money apart from no doubt the instruction to clear beds came down from the government posting it’s down to the private sector is ridiculous a two year old knows the nhs discharge patients 

[johnphilip]

6 hours ago, clangerman said:

bang on the money apart from no doubt the instruction to clear beds came down from the government posting it’s down to the private sector is ridiculous a two year old knows the nhs discharge patients 

Do you ever read back what you have typed , and thought , I dont have a clue what I am talking about , but I will post it any way .......? Because none of it makes sense  .

[countryman]

My wife has worked in a care home for many years, at present they are having to wear all the protection the same as Hospitals, she has had to nurse patients who have died of the virus. My wife works 48 hours night shift all for just a few pence above the minimum wage, yes it is a very profitable business but the staff are drastically under paid even before all this virus started. 

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Do you ever read back what you have typed , and thought , I dont have a clue what I am talking about , but I will post it any way .......? Because none of it makes sense  .

you could ask which part you don’t get manners cost nothing 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Do you ever read back what you have typed , and thought , I dont have a clue what I am talking about , but I will post it any way .......? Because none of it makes sense  .

This.

[Vince Green]

7 hours ago, clangerman said:

bang on the money apart from no doubt the instruction to clear beds came down from the government

Absolutely no evidence to suggest that's true. Lots of evidence that hospitals did it in breach of their own guidelines

care homes are not hospitals and they should never have been used as a dumping ground for the NHS. They didn't have PPE because there is no reason for them to be caring for highly infectious residents. That's not their role.

Eventually a lot more is going to come out about this 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Vince Green

[Retsdon]

21 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

In September last year The Guardian in relation to another matter on care homes reported that 84% of beds in the U.K. are privately run. It is worth a read as it highlights the issue.

I don't understand what the issue is, sorry. 

[Dave at kelton]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I don't understand what the issue is, sorry. 

The issue in my eyes is that you put profit before care levels and beat staff pay down to minimum levels. Furthermore when you are a private provider you take responsibility for your actions, like providing ppe  and cannot expect others to do it for you, i.e. government. Just my opinion.

[norfolk dumpling]

No doubt there was a panic to clear the decks of oldies but my father-in-law had a minor injury, had care in place, did not have C19 and was returned with cannula in place and the charge nurse lied about the tests. This is Norfolk where C19 rates very low so very very poor how our local hospital behaved. The ambulance guys admitted the ward concerned - a specialist non-C19 area - was very quiet and so better care should have been the case no no care. 

What, of course, they wouldn't have known was other matters which were putting my wife under huge pressure which I must say pushed us very close to talking to lawyers. Even now this has left a scar - my wife was an NHS manager and former nurse and was horrified by the dreadful treatment. 

[7daysinaweek]

@norfolk dumpling

Have you contacted the Patient Advice and Liason service (PALS) to escalate a complaint ? I would assume your wife being an Nhs manager and with her nursing background she would be familiar with these as first point of contact for highlighting your concerns. The trust has a legal duty to respond to your concerns under the 'Duty of Candour process' in relation to your concerns. This process would hopefully provide your father in law, your wife and yourself with answers regarding his care, what decisions were made and why and to highlight areas of of poor care and accountability and how all involved may move forward. This would be the process from a legal standing.

 

Regarding your ?? in your first post under the Covid 19 .gov document hospital discharges policy changes came into play on in Mid March, please see .gov link. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/873927/19.03.2020_NHSE-I__HMG_Letter_-_Hospital_Discharge_Guidance_V3.pdf

atb

7diaw

[Lloyd90]

On 06/06/2020 at 17:20, countryman said:

My wife has worked in a care home for many years, at present they are having to wear all the protection the same as Hospitals, she has had to nurse patients who have died of the virus. My wife works 48 hours night shift all for just a few pence above the minimum wage, yes it is a very profitable business but the staff are drastically under paid even before all this virus started. 

 

The issue is, it takes incredible amounts of investment to open and run a Care home. A building alone costs many millions of ££, lots went out of business when they said the old B&B’s were no longer up to fire regs and had to close down. 
 

The government and local authorities either don’t have the money or don’t want to spend the many tens of millions building, maintaining and running their own care homes, so have put it out to the private sector. 
 

Investors then put in the many millions needed to build and run these homes. They obviously want a return on their money. If they didn’t get the returns then they wouldn’t invest in them to begin with and we wouldn’t have any. 
 

I currently have my savings sat in an ISA, it’s relatively low risk and before all this Covid nonsense I was getting 10-15% on the stocks that I picked ... so a Care home which is covered in regulation, government  burden and problems, considered high risk, is going to want returns on their investment of 15%+ ... I know companies that have opened homes and that’s what they have to pay back on their loans. On top of this their insurance alone is astronomical. 
 

 

 

You will find that many care homes have accrued considerable expense during this Covid-19 pandemic ... yes they have a lot of income but it’s also high risk and a lot of expense. Just last week a group of 30+ care homes up North showed they either needed their funding increased to cover everything or they’d have to go into administration. 
 

It’s a volatile industry, but it really bugs me when people complain about them making profits. 
 

Friends of mine looked into opening one, but when they looked at their returns and the massive amount of work and red tape involved, they instead just invested their money with a firm who invests it for them. Now they spend their entire year at leisure, travelling around etc, and don’t have any bother, whilst clearing a very safe 10-15% income off their money. 
 

 

 

 

On 07/06/2020 at 09:35, Dave at kelton said:

The issue in my eyes is that you put profit before care levels and beat staff pay down to minimum levels. Furthermore when you are a private provider you take responsibility for your actions, like providing ppe  and cannot expect others to do it for you, i.e. government. Just my opinion.

That’s fine. The Care home are responsible for their own actions. 
 

That’s why they refused to accept people from hospital when trying to save the lives of their residents and keep them free from infection. 
 

The hospitals went absolutely mad when the care homes started refusing to take people... it was all over the news. The hospitals rushed people out and also refused to admit people into hospital instead saying they weren’t worth saving... they left them all to die in the care homes expecting some flood at the hospitals that simply never came. 

[norfolk dumpling]

Whilst our hospital were hopeless here, which was no surprise, the stars were the ambulance team who, when they brought f-i-l home, realise he still needed medical attention (and sorted this locally) and arranged for him to have a hospital-style bed and other kit. This they did in conjunction with Social Services (who should have already arranged!!) plus they recommended extra nursing care which with a GP visit significantly improved his life, his wife's burden and of course reduced pressure on my wife. We are currently 'shielding' our disabled lad who also is a long-term cancer sufferer so there was a few days where the pressure on our family was huge - all because of a foolish understanding of an instruction to 'clear the decks' before the C19 wave hits us locally.

[Lloyd90]

23 hours ago, norfolk dumpling said:

Whilst our hospital were hopeless here, which was no surprise, the stars were the ambulance team who, when they brought f-i-l home, realise he still needed medical attention (and sorted this locally) and arranged for him to have a hospital-style bed and other kit. This they did in conjunction with Social Services (who should have already arranged!!) plus they recommended extra nursing care which with a GP visit significantly improved his life, his wife's burden and of course reduced pressure on my wife. We are currently 'shielding' our disabled lad who also is a long-term cancer sufferer so there was a few days where the pressure on our family was huge - all because of a foolish understanding of an instruction to 'clear the decks' before the C19 wave hits us locally.

It’s the hospital discharge who are responsible for making sure the person has hospital bed etc etc etc before they go home, and they have referred to social services for care if needed. 
 

If they sent him home with none of that in place that again is a failure of hospital discharge and nothing to do with social services. 

[norfolk dumpling]

24 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

It’s the hospital discharge who are responsible for making sure the person has hospital bed etc etc etc before they go home, and they have referred to social services for care if needed. 
 

If they sent him home with none of that in place that again is a failure of hospital discharge and nothing to do with social services. 

I think you are missing the point - he had extensive care in place but hospital tried to ride rough shod over this and family's wishes and put him in a home. Ambulance paramedics realised he needed both more treatment and care and arranged for this.

[Lloyd90]

5 hours ago, norfolk dumpling said:

I think you are missing the point - he had extensive care in place but hospital tried to ride rough shod over this and family's wishes and put him in a home. Ambulance paramedics realised he needed both more treatment and care and arranged for this.

Yes, brilliant support from the ambulance folk fair play. 
 

Point was you can’t blame social services for something they didn’t do, or weren’t involved in. 
 

 

It was the hospital / health board / local CCG that tried a dodgy discharge. It’s absolutely rife at the moment. Family’s with POA not even being involved in decision making before people are out of hospital. People being sent to care homes when they could go home. 
 

They have thrown us (Social services) out of the hospital and since then we are having terrible discharges of people who are either not supposed to have left hospital as still really unwell, or completely messed it all up and didn’t follow the legal process in anyway. 

[oowee]

On 08/06/2020 at 15:10, Lloyd90 said:

I currently have my savings sat in an ISA, it’s relatively low risk and before all this Covid nonsense I was getting 10-15% on the stocks that I picked ... so a Care home which is covered in regulation, government  burden and problems, considered high risk, is going to want returns on their investment of 15%+ ... I know companies that have opened homes and that’s what they have to pay back on their loans. On top of this their insurance alone is astronomical. 

10-15% on the stocks that I picked . an you give me some tips 🙂 

I dont't reckon there is much money in the care home sector. I also know a few that have gone bust. Are the rates set by the LA's for the places? 

[Lloyd90]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

10-15% on the stocks that I picked . an you give me some tips 🙂 

I dont't reckon there is much money in the care home sector. I also know a few that have gone bust. Are the rates set by the LA's for the places? 

The ones you picked me are currently up 30% + ... probably a bit more. 

The LA try to set rates... the care homes refuse to take it as there’s no money in it for them... then they are desperate for places and pay the going rate in the end. 

 

Some councils up North set a fixed rate that was extremely low. They ended up with lots of homes going bust and have huge shortages. 
 

Now in those areas it’s not uncommon if your relative needs a Care home for them to be placed in a care home between 2-5 hours away from you. Imagine that. 

[norfolk dumpling]

18 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Yes, brilliant support from the ambulance folk fair play. 
 

Point was you can’t blame social services for something they didn’t do, or weren’t involved in. 
 

 

It was the hospital / health board / local CCG that tried a dodgy discharge. It’s absolutely rife at the moment. Family’s with POA not even being involved in decision making before people are out of hospital. People being sent to care homes when they could go home. 
 

They have thrown us (Social services) out of the hospital and since then we are having terrible discharges of people who are either not supposed to have left hospital as still really unwell, or completely messed it all up and didn’t follow the legal process in anyway. 

No blame on Social Services - it was dreadful treatment by our local hospital ie returning the old fellow home with cannula in his arm, claiming they had carried out various tests and he was ok (he was oh so far from OK) and missing infected boils. This when for 10yrs an extensive care package had been put in place to ensure their wish to die at home could be met.  Thank god for the guys in the ambulance!