Air travel - so unrealistic

[Gordon R]

Quote

It does, just not being used in this country,  South Korea were all over it, Germany were on it early doors,  no idea what's being used here??

They have had some success, but it isn't perfect and would not work in the UK.

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is hard to see how what is for many an effective track and trace - is not "excessive state intrusion" for others.

In my case because i am entirely uncomfortable with the concept of willingly allowing the government to use a vast range of disparate systems to track any and every movement as a norm.

The history of policing in the UK is littered with abuse of privilege and access.  Despite the exceptional circumstance of this pandemic ceding fundamental liberties and freedoms, i.e. the right to go about ones normal and lawful business without being systemically tracked, is a far greater principle to stand behind.

 

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

And long may we rebel against excessive state intrusion too.

Oh come on! you really do need to get a life. State intrusion?? people are are dying ***

[Vince Green]

50 minutes ago, grrclark said:

In my case because i am entirely uncomfortable with the concept of willingly allowing the government to use a vast range of disparate systems to track any and every movement as a norm.

The history of policing in the UK is littered with abuse of privilege and access.  Despite the exceptional circumstance of this pandemic ceding fundamental liberties and freedoms, i.e. the right to go about ones normal and lawful business without being systemically tracked, is a far greater principle to stand behind.

 

I know it is a documented fact that the Scots have a lower IQ than the rest of Britain but really. do you actually believe what you are saying here? 

and just in case you doubt my comments about the Scottish IQ. Looks pretty convincing to me 

 https://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-lags-europe-iq-league-2470181

Edited July 27, 2020 by Vince Green

[grrclark]

Vince, is that the best that you have?

From some people I might consider that a slight, but from a man who peddles the same conceited ignorance and garbage time and again on these forums I will dismiss your comment for what it is worth, precisely heehaw.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion and debate relative to my post then try and behave like an educated grown up and not just another angry bigoted old man venting his ire at the world.

[mel b3]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I know it is a documented fact that the Scots have a lower IQ than the rest of Britain but really. do you actually believe what you are saying here? 

and just in case you doubt my comments about the Scottish IQ. Looks pretty convincing to me 

 https://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-lags-europe-iq-league-2470181

 

4 hours ago, grrclark said:

Vince, is that the best that you have?

From some people I might consider that a slight, but from a man who peddles the same conceited ignorance and garbage time and again on these forums I will dismiss your comment for what it is worth, precisely heehaw.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion and debate relative to my post then try and behave like an educated grown up and not just another angry bigoted old man venting his ire at the world.

Yeah , I always had you down as a bit thick as well jock 😅😅😅😅😅😅.

Vince . Graham is one of the most intelligent ( whilst still having common sense and decency) people that you will ever come across in your life mate , and whilst you might not agree with his opinion (it would be a very boring world if we all agreed on everything ) , you're pretty wide of the Mark to tag him as thick 👍.

[das]

For the few who won,t or can,t (for whatever reasons) isolate on return from the fleshpots of the Rivieras,  there is a small
situation called anarchy. On your return from Benidorm or somewhere similar, if you choose to ignore self isolation, you may
be visited or contacted by phone and relieved of a £1000 fine for your troubles if caught out.

the fine could, of course, provided you with a nice set of camping gear which you could use for a week or so wild camping in Torridon or Skye
where there will be one or two remote pubs where the chances of getting a dose of COVID are very remote.

[JohnfromUK]

59 minutes ago, das said:

For the few who won,t or can,t (for whatever reasons) isolate on return from the fleshpots of the Rivieras,  there is a small
situation called anarchy. On your return from Benidorm or somewhere similar, if you choose to ignore self isolation, you may
be visited or contacted by phone and relieved of a £1000 fine for your troubles if caught out.

The chances of being caught?  You would probably be more likely to win the lottery, or have your premium bond come up!

Realistically, some employers will be 'sensible' and staff returning from holidays (where the employer/colleagues are likely to know) ...... will probably arrange some work from home or similar where possible. (No business wants an outbreak in their works/offices).  Otherwise it is near enough down to conscience.

What is annoying is that the Govt. were VERY clear when travel was allowed without quarantine that it was dependant on risks not increasing too much - and if risks did increase - they would not hesitate to re-introduce restrictions.  People knew the risks were there when they went on holiday.

We also are told that much of the initial peak in March/April was widely spread by people returning from Spain, France and Italy https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406917/More-THREE-QUARTERS-Covid-19-cases-Britain-originated-Spain-France-Italy.html

That is why taking precautions like quarantine makes sense, especially as we have a track and trace that only finds limited contacts - and many are reluctant to use on 'liberties" grounds, or don't use due possibly to language difficulties.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Seem to be plenty of returning tourists expecting their employers to give them time off to quarantine on the news shows.

[grrclark]

58 minutes ago, das said:

For the few who won,t or can,t (for whatever reasons) isolate on return from the fleshpots of the Rivieras,  there is a small
situation called anarchy. On your return from Benidorm or somewhere similar, if you choose to ignore self isolation, you may
be visited or contacted by phone and relieved of a £1000 fine for your troubles if caught out.

the fine could, of course, provided you with a nice set of camping gear which you could use for a week or so wild camping in Torridon or Skye
where there will be one or two remote pubs where the chances of getting a dose of COVID are very remote.

And of course the more people who decide to visit Skye or Torridon, or any other remote place, increases the risk of covid transmission there.

Consider your comment from the perspective of a resident on Skye.  If you think people returning from a holiday to Spain are selfish and putting you at risk, then by choosing to holiday in  remote place are you being selfish and putting them at risk?

To put into context, at the time the ‘air bridges’ were first established England had a higher rate of infection per capita than Spain did.  At that time deciding to go to Spain on holiday was statistically less risky than staying in England.

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Seem to be plenty of returning tourists expecting their employers to give them time off to quarantine on the news shows.

I have some sympathy with their position.

The guidance was that Spain was considered sufficiently safe to travel to, at the time of the initial announcement the rolling two week average for infection rates showed Spain as having less infections per capita than England.

For those already in Spain prior to the guidance changing and who are now returning they are without blame, they are unfortunate to be caught up in this situation.  I hope that employers are reasonable towards them.

[Vince Green]

In the Telegraph this morning, the isolation period was reimposed after ten people were identified as having returned to the UK from Spain with symptoms and subsequently tested positive.

This was much higher than expected, and they were from the first wave of returning tourists, the fear was it would be just the tip of the iceberg. Many more would not yet showing symptoms or would be asymptomatic. 

The Government has concluded that infection levels in Spain were higher than were being officially reported. That is now being confirmed by other data.

Other countries are under investigation, France, Germany, Croatia have been mentioned 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Vince Green

[das]

56 minutes ago, grrclark said:

And of course the more people who decide to visit Skye or Torridon, or any other remote place, increases the risk of covid transmission there.

Consider your comment from the perspective of a resident on Skye.  If you think people returning from a holiday to Spain are selfish and putting you at risk, then by choosing to holiday in  remote place are you being selfish and putting them at risk?

To put into context, at the time the ‘air bridges’ were first established England had a higher rate of infection per capita than Spain did.  At that time deciding to go to Spain on holiday was statistically less risky than staying in England.

Having been to both places, Skye and further NW,  camping at Glenbrittle and spending the days in the Cuillins, it would have been difficult
to pass on COVID to a seal or a deer. People who totally afraid to catch or pass on the bug, should stay at home reading holiday brochures (you might still find some), 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

For those already in Spain prior to the guidance changing and who are now returning they are without blame, they are unfortunate to be caught up in this situation.

That is certainly true - but they were fully warned of the risks.  If you cannot get insurance (or it is very expensive) - it is because the risks are seen as either too high, or too uncertain.  When the 'air bridges' were set up - it was made very clear that they would be under review constantly - and would change with little or no notice (you cannot give notice because you are reacting to daily changing figures).

It is indeed very unfortunate - and I feel very sorry for those caught up, but they took a gamble and lost. 

If you look worldwide - there are LOTS of places the virus infections are increasing dramatically - and some places with strong control systems and good records of rapid control (i.e. parts of Australia) are suffering some quite severe increases now.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Other countries are under investigation, France, Germany, Croatia have been mentioned 

If you look at the graph - it is clear why Spain was a priority

especially as people returning are apparently testing positive.

[grrclark]

John, I agree that those who travelled did take a risk.

We all do to a lesser or greater extent every day.

I have sympathy for them, but i dont think they deserve to be described as being stupid or selfish as others have called them.

Just unlucky is all.

[discobob]

13 hours ago, wascal said:

not really I've done it loads of times

Flashback - although we had all green!!!

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

And of course the more people who decide to visit Skye or Torridon, or any other remote place, increases the risk of covid transmission there.

Consider your comment from the perspective of a resident on Skye.  If you think people returning from a holiday to Spain are selfish and putting you at risk, then by choosing to holiday in  remote place are you being selfish and putting them at risk?

To put into context, at the time the ‘air bridges’ were first established England had a higher rate of infection per capita than Spain did.  At that time deciding to go to Spain on holiday was statistically less risky than staying in England.

This is the problem they have in Cornwall, they don't want the tourists and their germs and litter at present but the entire Cornish economy is built on the tourist pound. Some people are putting signs up on the bridges saying go home. Others are desperate to full their empty holiday lets with paying guests.

The question is now emerging did the Spanish disclose the full facts and carry out proper risk assessments before they opened up for business or was it desperate times require desperate measures? 

[grrclark]

7 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

This is the problem they have in Cornwall, they don't want the tourists and their germs and litter at present but the entire Cornish economy is built on the tourist pound. Some people are putting signs up on the bridges saying go home. Others are desperate to full their empty holiday lets with paying guests.

The question is now emerging did the Spanish disclose the full facts and carry out proper risk assessments before they opened up for business or was it desperate times require desperate measures? 

It is a very real challenge.  The tourism sector is huge contributer to the economy, but more importantly at an individual level for many it is entirely what they rely on and I have huge sympathy for those folks.

I suspect that the folk that you describe in Cornwall will be mirrored all across the country, I know there have been many comments from some in the Scottish island communities that they don't want that influx of tourists again, but the folk saying that are not the ones who need to rely on the income from the tourists.

As for the Spanish disclosing the full facts or otherwise, I honestly don't know if the Spanish government have been sandbagging or not although i understand why some might be asking that question.

One thing is for sure, it is desperate times for very many people and we are going to have to get a lot more sophisticated in our answers rather than just a blunt lockdown. 

[AVB]

4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

It is a very real challenge.  The tourism sector is huge contributer to the economy, but more importantly at an individual level for many it is entirely what they rely on and I have huge sympathy for those folks.

I suspect that the folk that you describe in Cornwall will be mirrored all across the country, I know there have been many comments from some in the Scottish island communities that they don't want that influx of tourists again, but the folk saying that are not the ones who need to rely on the income from the tourists.

As for the Spanish disclosing the full facts or otherwise, I honestly don't know if the Spanish government have been sandbagging or not although i understand why some might be asking that question.

One thing is for sure, it is desperate times for very many people and we are going to have to get a lot more sophisticated in our answers rather than just a blunt lockdown. 

Like many countries the Spanish numbers are suspect. They went from many deaths/day to none pretty much overnight and then, miraculously, the total number of dead decreased! 

Edited July 28, 2020 by AVB
Spelling

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, AVB said:

Like many countries the Spanish numbers are suspect. They went from many deaths/day to none pretty much overnight and then, miraculously, the total number of dead decreased! 

I would go further and suggest that for the absolute vast majority of countries the numbers will be suspect, whether it is a deliberate misrepresentation or an inability to get it right.  We don't need to look beyond our own shores to see that.  Decapitated in a car crash in July = covid death because someone had a cough in March.

[Vince Green]

16 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I would go further and suggest that for the absolute vast majority of countries the numbers will be suspect, whether it is a deliberate misrepresentation or an inability to get it right.  We don't need to look beyond our own shores to see that.  Decapitated in a car crash in July = covid death because someone had a cough in March.

American figures are more suspect, Approx 30% of all Americans have no access to any sort of healthcare and can't afford to see a doctor no matter whats wrong with them. They will go unrecorded and undiagnosed.

Its not unusual to hear of people in America suffering from serious illness decline treatment because it would bankrupt the family 

Spain has lost more than a million jobs in the tourist industry, the pressure to get things back up and running must have been immense

Edited July 28, 2020 by Vince Green

[Dave-G]

18 minutes ago, AVB said:

Like many countries the Spanish numbers are suspect. They went from many deaths/day to none pretty much overnight and then, miraculously, the total number of dead decreased! 

And maybe spiked again because some recently infected Brits about to show symptoms felt their holiday was much more important than their health - so splurged what could have otherwise paid their mortgage for two weeks quarantine on some sunshine instead.

[grrclark]

12 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

American figures are more suspect, Approx 30% of all Americans have no access to any sort of healthcare and can't afford to see a doctor no matter whats wrong with them. They will go unrecorded and undiagnosed.

Its not unusual to hear of people in America suffering from serious illness decline treatment because it would bankrupt the family 

Spain has lost more than a million jobs in the tourist industry, the pressure to get things back up and running must have been immense

It was estimated that at the middle of our lockdown period around 2.5m tourism based jobs in the UK were on furlough. The pressure here to get things back up and running is immense.

The situation in the US is a very real concern and sadly being massively politicised by both sides as the election is coming up.  There are some economic timebombs just waiting to go off there too, let alone the healthcare ones.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

As for the Spanish disclosing the full facts or otherwise, I honestly don't know if the Spanish government have been sandbagging or not although i understand why some might be asking that question.

One thing is for sure, it is desperate times for very many people and we are going to have to get a lot more sophisticated in our answers rather than just a blunt lockdown. 

I don't for a minute think that a government that relies on tourism for a large part of its income.e would lie about its figures?? I mean what would they have to gain??

As for lockdown,  they might need to get more sophisticated but people shouldn't have been flying to Spain, why would you put your family at risk for a couple of weeks of sun.