Lead free shotgun cartridges

[jords]

I have been reading a lot lately on the current political climate surrounding “Phasing out lead shotgun ammunition by 2025” it seems that most of the live quarry Hunting community are outraged by this decision.. I have read multiple angles of argument & it seems to me like it’s just about the money?... there has been rumours that BASC has had talks about signing a multi million pound deal with Waitrose to supply “lead free game meat” I have also watched the field sports channel video on YouTube regarding this matter & in my opinion nobody seems to have a concrete reason with no conspiracy lingering as to why lead shot should be banned all together?.. After all it’s been in practise for centuries.. so why all of a sudden is it too bad for the environment now?.. after research.. circa figures show that nobody has ever suffered lead poisoning from shot game meat.. also I have read that most water supply pipelines are constructed from lead.. along with their extraction methods that contain certain lead elements... 

if this transition takes place.. It appears  most Vintage side by side & O/U shotguns will be phased out completely, as getting the barrels proofed or nitro sleeved to withstand steel shot will outweigh the guns retail value. 

not to mention the choking issues.. 

the price of these “bio cartridges” can allegedly fetch a whopping £3 odd per cartridge.. 
 

justcartridges.com does list/sell steel shot & bio degradable ammo at nearly double the price of lead shot..  

1 box of 25x Eley 12G cartridges on this site (Lead shot) list at around £5 odd per box. 
 

1 box of 25x Eley 12G bio degrading standard steel shot List for just over £10 a box. 
 

not only is this going to depopulate the working class shooting community, but also drive a lot of firearms dealers either out of business or out of ALOT of their stock; being made unworthy to be sold. 
 

in a recent article written by the field sports channel. (Link attached) it states that the “uk’s leading shotgun ammo manufacturers, were not consulted by this decision” and if they were given any kind of notice.. it was after the decision had already been made to phase lead shot out. 
 

“Take it or leave it” attitude Seems to be strongly on the agenda here abusing authority for financial gain. (Sales of new guns etc) 
 

not to mention the ammunition & an entire new list of tricks it gives the anti hunting community. (pardon the pun) 
 

would LOVE to hear your thoughts on this.. I know there is BASC superiors on here.. I suppose I‘d better Duck for cover... 

 

jords. 
 

links: 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.fieldsportschannel.tv/leadban/amp/
 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by jords

[Terry2016]

Hi Jords, 

A couple of points, i hope to help you understand this further... Firstly there is no BAN.... i have commented against your posts below...

"there has been rumours that BASC has had talks about signing a multi million pound deal with Waitrose to supply “lead free game meat”

• BASC are not a game dealer and have no access to game therefore cannot agree any deals with supermarkets to supply game 

"so why all of a sudden is it too bad for the environment now?.

• Because now there are suitable alternatives and there will be more coming on to the market, and if we do not do it we may be pushed and then where would be ?

"figures show that nobody has ever suffered lead poisoning from shot game meat.

• There are many many many documents that show the negative impacts of lead on humans and animals, we are in the uk removing lead pipes from water inlets, paint and fuel

"most Vintage side by side & O/U shotguns will be phased out completely, as getting the barrels proofed or nitro sleeved to withstand steel shot will outweigh the guns retail value. 

• All guns that are nitro proof can shoot steel cartridges, they have even now brought out a biodegradable wad 2.5" cartridge to suit these guns. 

The price of these cartridges will reduce as more come to the market. currently the jocker version for clays is £50 a slab slightly more expensive for game

Regarding the consultation with cartridge manufacturers - people will have their views.. one manufacturer released their knowledge of the transition a week before the statement.... how could they do that if they were unaware..... it isn't worth turning over past history however i understand the gun trade association were at meetings and they also represent the cartridge manufacturers ... 

Interesting enough Gambore said they could not do the transition in 10 years let alone 5 and it would take millions of pounds!!   and yet they have released their new precision steel cartridges with bio wads in less than 6 months..

Have a look at these videos, From these 2 videos there is no issue with steel and in fact only positives... 

For humans, for animals, for perception and for the most important one the continuation of shooting...

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Terry2016

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I have mentioned before at least half the old houses in Wallingford town have water lead service pipes, even pre 1970s may have as well as galvanised which is not an ideal water carrier, 

Edited August 8, 2020 by oldypigeonpopper

[Terry2016]

8 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I have mentioned before at least half the old houses in Wallingford town have water lead service pipes, even pre 1970s may have as well as galvanised which is not an ideal water carrier, 

Agreed, In my previous roles in construction there are huge programmes to remove these... 

Nowadays they are not installed. hence you see miles of upvc pipe being laid.

👍

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Terry2016

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 minute ago, Terry2016 said:

Agreed, In my previous roles in construction there are huge programmes to remove these... 

Nowadays they are not installed. hence you see miles of ups pipe being laid.

👍

 

Hello, not forgetting the 1000s of pre war houses in London with lead service pipes, if we ever changed to plastic was good money for scrap lead,

[Terry2016]

Just now, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, not forgetting the 1000s of pre war houses in London with lead service pipes, if we ever changed to plastic was good money for scrap lead,

lol yes this is where we was doing it,,,, the cars were a pain in the A *** though as we would take them right through to the main.... including dining the trenches right through... 

 

oh the fun how i miss it.... not...:-)

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 minute ago, Terry2016 said:

lol yes this is where we was doing it,,,, the cars were a pain in the A *** though as we would take them right through to the main.... including dining the trenches right through... 

 

oh the fun how i miss it.... not...:-)

Hello, I was on TWA in South Oxfordshire, no mini diggers back then, 🙄

 

 

[holloway]

1 hour ago, jords said:

I have been reading a lot lately on the current political climate surrounding “Phasing out lead shotgun ammunition by 2025” it seems that most of the live quarry Hunting community are outraged by this decision.. I have read multiple angles of argument & it seems to me like it’s just about the money?... there has been rumours that BASC has had talks about signing a multi million pound deal with Waitrose to supply “lead free game meat” I have also watched the field sports channel video on YouTube regarding this matter & in my opinion nobody seems to have a concrete reason with no conspiracy lingering as to why lead shot should be banned all together?.. After all it’s been in practise for centuries.. so why all of a sudden is it too bad for the environment now?.. after research.. circa figures show that nobody has ever suffered lead poisoning from shot game meat.. also I have read that most water supply pipelines are constructed from lead.. along with their extraction methods that contain certain lead elements... 

if this transition takes place.. It appears  most Vintage side by side & O/U shotguns will be phased out completely, as getting the barrels proofed or nitro sleeved to withstand steel shot will outweigh the guns retail value. 

not to mention the choking issues.. 

the price of these “bio cartridges” can allegedly fetch a whopping £3 odd per cartridge.. 
 

justcartridges.com does list/sell steel shot & bio degradable ammo at nearly double the price of lead shot..  

1 box of 25x Eley 12G cartridges on this site (Lead shot) list at around £5 odd per box. 
 

1 box of 25x Eley 12G bio degrading standard steel shot List for just over £10 a box. 
 

not only is this going to depopulate the working class shooting community, but also drive a lot of firearms dealers either out of business or out of ALOT of their stock; being made unworthy to be sold. 
 

in a recent article written by the field sports channel. (Link attached) it states that the “uk’s leading shotgun ammo manufacturers, were not consulted by this decision” and if they were given any kind of notice.. it was after the decision had already been made to phase lead shot out. 
 

“Take it or leave it” attitude Seems to be strongly on the agenda here abusing authority for financial gain. (Sales of new guns etc) 
 

not to mention the ammunition & an entire new list of tricks it gives the anti hunting community. (pardon the pun) 
 

would LOVE to hear your thoughts on this.. I know there is BASC superiors on here.. I suppose I‘d better Duck for cover... 

 

jords. 
 

links: 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.fieldsportschannel.tv/leadban/amp/
 

 

 

If you have a look through the forum this has all been disscussed over the last 6 months or so endlessly.

 

[jords]

Thankyou for clearing that up. I am new to this & I was just worried that I wouldn’t beable to purchase a decent used shotgun.. and continue to use it over the course of the next decade.. you know what it’s like out here.. if it’s fun.. and pumps some form of adrenaline.. there’s anti’s somewhere trying to stop it.. I only joined this forum a week ago, so I apologise if I am abit late to the party.. 

To the gentleman that had put a lot of effort into his answers, had cleared it up for me perfectly! Sorry if I am over lapping anyone’s posts.. onwards & upwards then! 
 

glad to be here & will be sure to check through the forum before I begin another topic.. Thankyou for all the replies! 

[Dave at kelton]

5 hours ago, Terry2016 said:

Hi Jords, 

A couple of points, i hope to help you understand this further... Firstly there is no BAN.... i have commented against your posts below...

"there has been rumours that BASC has had talks about signing a multi million pound deal with Waitrose to supply “lead free game meat”

• BASC are not a game dealer and have no access to game therefore cannot agree any deals with supermarkets to supply game 

"so why all of a sudden is it too bad for the environment now?.

• Because now there are suitable alternatives and there will be more coming on to the market, and if we do not do it we may be pushed and then where would be ?

"figures show that nobody has ever suffered lead poisoning from shot game meat.

• There are many many many documents that show the negative impacts of lead on humans and animals, we are in the uk removing lead pipes from water inlets, paint and fuel

"most Vintage side by side & O/U shotguns will be phased out completely, as getting the barrels proofed or nitro sleeved to withstand steel shot will outweigh the guns retail value. 

• All guns that are nitro proof can shoot steel cartridges, they have even now brought out a biodegradable wad 2.5" cartridge to suit these guns. 

The price of these cartridges will reduce as more come to the market. currently the jocker version for clays is £50 a slab slightly more expensive for game

Regarding the consultation with cartridge manufacturers - people will have their views.. one manufacturer released their knowledge of the transition a week before the statement.... how could they do that if they were unaware..... it isn't worth turning over past history however i understand the gun trade association were at meetings and they also represent the cartridge manufacturers ... 

Interesting enough Gambore said they could not do the transition in 10 years let alone 5 and it would take millions of pounds!!   and yet they have released their new precision steel cartridges with bio wads in less than 6 months..

Have a look at these videos, From these 2 videos there is no issue with steel and in fact only positives... 

For humans, for animals, for perception and for the most important one the continuation of shooting...

 

Adding to this post I spent time yesterday with an English gunmaker. He has been involved in testing and patterning the new Eley cartridge in guess what, traditional English guns. The points he made are.

There is no adverse effect on suitably choked barrels as the steel does not touch the walls.

 He has retrieved the eley wads and they show no sign of degradation

They, and the jocker pattern fine

He Has to spend time speaking to nearly every customer explaining that yes you can shoot standard steel through a gun that is not steel proofed as they produce no greater pressures than lead equivalents. You just have to avoid tight chokes.

So it’s not down to the gun. The big question will be do they kill in the field on which the verdict for me is out. Everything else has been done to death on this forum.

 

[harkom]

Jords -  well thought out series of questions. But do not believe many of the "answers".

Turry 2016 -- = IDIOT..

[Old farrier]

32 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Adding to this post I spent time yesterday with an English gunmaker. He has been involved in testing and patterning the new Eley cartridge in guess what, traditional English guns. The points he made are.

There is no adverse effect on suitably choked barrels as the steel does not touch the walls.

 He has retrieved the eley wads and they show no sign of degradation

They, and the jocker pattern fine

He Has to spend time speaking to nearly every customer explaining that yes you can shoot standard steel through a gun that is not steel proofed as they produce no greater pressures than lead equivalents. You just have to avoid tight chokes.

So it’s not down to the gun. The big question will be do they kill in the field on which the verdict for me is out. Everything else has been done to death on this forum.

 

So my live pigeon guns choked full and extra full will be?? 
ok 

obsolete 

rattle my teeth out from the extra speed inherent in steel cartridges 

 

[Terry2016]

1 hour ago, harkom said:

Jords -  well thought out series of questions. But do not believe many of the "answers".

Turry 2016 -- = IDIOT..

lol you are funny, clearly don't like the truth.

3 hours ago, jords said:

Thankyou for clearing that up. I am new to this & I was just worried that I wouldn’t beable to purchase a decent used shotgun.. and continue to use it over the course of the next decade.. you know what it’s like out here.. if it’s fun.. and pumps some form of adrenaline.. there’s anti’s somewhere trying to stop it.. I only joined this forum a week ago, so I apologise if I am abit late to the party.. 

To the gentleman that had put a lot of effort into his answers, had cleared it up for me perfectly! Sorry if I am over lapping anyone’s posts.. onwards & upwards then! 
 

glad to be here & will be sure to check through the forum before I begin another topic.. Thankyou for all the replies! 

Jords, 

not a problem, there are heaps of information out there. most is in-fact opionions of old wives tales with nothing to back it up... 

Look at the comments above from Harkom .. no justification nothing to add or dispute what i explained to you. 

Likewise the videos i posted explain the very same as i did but from a gunsmith... 

welcome to the forum. 

it is a good place to learn more if you have any more questions please feel free to shout. 

Best 

Terry 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Terry2016

[Dave at kelton]

28 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

So my live pigeon guns choked full and extra full will be?? 
ok 

obsolete 

rattle my teeth out from the extra speed inherent in steel cartridges 

 

No and that is not what I said!

If you want to use those chokes IF lead is banned you can do what I do with my full choked 8 bore fowling gun and use tungsten matrix or bismuth. It is not obsolete unless you choose to make it so.

[Old farrier]

23 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

No and that is not what I said!

If you want to use those chokes IF lead is banned you can do what I do with my full choked 8 bore fowling gun and use tungsten matrix or bismuth. It is not obsolete unless you choose to make it so.

I’m well aware of the properties of tungsten matrix and bismuth however we are discussing steel cartridges and bio wads 

steel being the affordable option which is not suitable for all guns 

[Dave at kelton]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m well aware of the properties of tungsten matrix and bismuth however we are discussing steel cartridges and bio wads 

steel being the affordable option which is not suitable for all guns 

I appreciate you and I are aware of the properties of the alternatives and my post does not suggest steel or the eley load is suitable in all guns. It is though suitable in a hell of a lot.

There are substantial numbers of people who believe their guns have been rendered obsolete and that just isn’t the case.

I am no more happy about this development than anyone else but there are people who simply do not have the facts right or are peddling incorrect information, and I am not suggesting you are. All I am trying to do is put the facts out in answer to the original questions raised.

“if this transition takes place.. It appears  most Vintage side by side & O/U shotguns will be phased out completely, as getting the barrels proofed or nitro sleeved to withstand steel shot will outweigh the guns retail value“ I emphasise the word, most.

I have a lovely Charles Lancaster duck gun with Damascus barrels which will not be seeing steel cartridges but it is not “obsolete” and it will not be nitro sleeved. Nor will the other dozen or so English guns I use from time to time be sleeved but some may be used with steel as they have chokes of half or less. I will see how things develop on the ground.

[motty]

I hear the same old bull being spouted as fact. It annoys me.

Steel can be used in most guns and can be used with chokes tighter than half, in most instances. Far too much misinformation and scaremongering regarding steel.

[Lloyd90]

43 minutes ago, motty said:

I hear the same old bull being spouted as fact. It annoys me.

Steel can be used in most guns and can be used with chokes tighter than half, in most instances. Far too much misinformation and scaremongering regarding steel.

The info is very inconsistent. 
 

I have a 2 3/4” chamber Spanish Master Side by Side. It’s choked 1/2 and FULL. 
 

I have a slab of GB super steel 32g 3’s. 
 

Some 2 3/4” carts with size 3 shot can apparently be used through non steel proof guns but these ones for some reason count as HP steel.
 

If I had picked up the same cartridge in size 4 apparently they would have been fine. 

Another brand in the same size and weight, 32g 3’s are ok? Or not ok? 
 

It’s quite confusing, to the point I have bought a HP steel proof Browning Maxus with 3 1/2 chamber. 

 

[McSpredder]

Can shotguns be insured against the risk of damage caused by using steel shot?  

Is that risk covered by insurance policies provided through any of the UK shooting organisations?

[Cannon]

The GB steel cartridges I have come with two warnings on the box. The first is about the increased chance of ricochets, and the second states that the cartridge must not be used to shoot game past 35 yards. Not exactly a suitable alternative as Terry would have us believe. There's a long way to go to reassure shooters of the suitability of lead alternatives. Maybe there should have been a consultation with the very people who use cartridges for hunting instead of committing to a 5 year transition period with absolutely no idea how it was going to pan out.

[jords]

The info here is quite comforting.. so a massive Thankyou to you all that have taken your time to reply to me.. I’ll be abit more specific.. I have been looking at a used AYA no.2 side by side.. I can pick up a good one for around £550-£1100 depending on the year and condition.. I’ve looked at others and got my heart set on an AYA. I’ve just heard so much about this steel shot & the now known “scaremongering” behind it.. as I mentioned I am relatively new to to the side by side world.. I have always wanted one. But got used to a U/O first For a  while which carries the nitro proof stamp & clearly states on the barrels “steel shot”.. again there is so much information out there regarding this awesome sport.. so it’s quite hard to establish the ******** & the facts with so many opinions voiced on the internet. With the kind of AYA in my budget range I just presumed it would be too old to have been catered for the nitro proofing of steel shot.. it p****** me off abit more than it should, which is why I had to ask on here.. just sat there & thought to myself “perfect timing” .. I want a side by side & now will be rendered obsolete! GREAAAT!!! You get my point I’m sure.. 

the wealth of knowledge on here is fantastic so a massive Thankyou to you all for your inputs! Really put me in the picture! I will continue to take it all on board & hopefully lead shot won’t be banned.. (for at least a decade anyway) I’ve also read from outraged shooters that the ballistic properties of steel is still an on going problem in terms of achieving a clean kill & also a shortage of shot range compared to lead shot.. 

 

im all ears if anybody wishes to correct what I have read if it’s wrong! 
 

thanks again guys 

 

jords 

[Lloyd90]

25 minutes ago, jords said:

The info here is quite comforting.. so a massive Thankyou to you all that have taken your time to reply to me.. I’ll be abit more specific.. I have been looking at a used AYA no.2 side by side.. I can pick up a good one for around £550-£1100 depending on the year and condition.. I’ve looked at others and got my heart set on an AYA. I’ve just heard so much about this steel shot & the now known “scaremongering” behind it.. as I mentioned I am relatively new to to the side by side world.. I have always wanted one. But got used to a U/O first For a  while which carries the nitro proof stamp & clearly states on the barrels “steel shot”.. again there is so much information out there regarding this awesome sport.. so it’s quite hard to establish the ******** & the facts with so many opinions voiced on the internet. With the kind of AYA in my budget range I just presumed it would be too old to have been catered for the nitro proofing of steel shot.. it p****** me off abit more than it should, which is why I had to ask on here.. just sat there & thought to myself “perfect timing” .. I want a side by side & now will be rendered obsolete! GREAAAT!!! You get my point I’m sure.. 

the wealth of knowledge on here is fantastic so a massive Thankyou to you all for your inputs! Really put me in the picture! I will continue to take it all on board & hopefully lead shot won’t be banned.. (for at least a decade anyway) I’ve also read from outraged shooters that the ballistic properties of steel is still an on going problem in terms of achieving a clean kill & also a shortage of shot range compared to lead shot.. 

 

im all ears if anybody wishes to correct what I have read if it’s wrong! 
 

thanks again guys 

 

jords 

Got an AYA 117 sidelock ejector 👍🏻 Let me know if interested. 

[enfieldspares]

BASC and the British Game Alliance:

"How is the BGA financed?

• The BGA has three lines of primary income:
  • Membership fees from shoots
  • Voluntary 50p donation paid by guns
  • A number of commercial partnerships from within the shooting industry"

BASC's own website says:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-backs-british-game-alliance-bga-with-support-package/

"BASC has announced today it has provided a substantial support package to the BGA which includes financial backing, access to BASC staff expertise and a BASC council member to sit on the BGA board."

"Tom Adams, managing director of the BGA, said: “The BGA is grateful for BASC’s support. Working together, we can focus on delivering our shared objectives of a sustainable game market and credible self-regulation."" 

And on the UK GOV web pages:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11173337/filing-history

- "01 Mar 2019 - Registration of Charge - VIEW PDF" 

"Details of the Charge - Persons Entitled BASC"

"29 Oct 2019 - Total Exemption Full Accounts - DOWNLOAD IXBRL" 

The Accounts are however mute as to the provider of the long term loan. 

8.

CREDITORS: AMOUNTS FALLING DUE AFTER MORE THAN ONE YEAR

£

Long term loan

92,500

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by enfieldspares

[enfieldspares]

So...if this is true...and game can be scanned for lead shot AND THE LEAD SHOT REMOVED then what's the issue?
 

British Game Alliance FAQ's | British Game Alliance

BGA FAQs and Audit FAQs BGA’s FAQs What is the British Game Alliance? The British Game Alliance (BGA) is a not-for-profit organisation which exists to provide credible self regulation through a third party auditing scheme and promote game across all sectors as a national marketing board. The...

 www.britishgamealliance.co.uk

How are you addressing the issue of lead in game?

• Leading game processors are able to scan game meat for lead shot and subsequently remove it.

 

[rbrowning2]

8 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Can shotguns be insured against the risk of damage caused by using steel shot?  

Is that risk covered by insurance policies provided through any of the UK shooting organisations?

Yes you can insure a shotgun against damage, the six million dollar question is would they pay out for damage caused by using a shot type that the gun was never designed for or proofed for?  

all these comments that, so and so says not a problem just use steel shot, will they pay if you gun gets damaged by steel shoot, we have been shooting lead shot through thousands of different types of shotguns over hundreds of years, the same cannot be said with steel shot and even with the, now not to be used thick non-biodegradable plastic wads, guns get damaged by steel as a quick search of the web will show.