bavarianbrit Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, treetree said: Says the man wandering around with a damp bit of cloth over his face, to protect him from a virus with a 99.7% survival rate (not including the huge numbers who are asympyomatic) when there are no randomised control tests showing these masks work. All to protect from a virus where average age of death from the virus is 82 years old. It is not to protect me wally, they are worn by all to protect all others from your droplets, I am 70 and take it more seriously, than you. I live in Germany with 85 million and 10K dead, you are in a 65 million country with 50K dead so do the math on that, respect others as the Germans do, they call the cops if people will not comply (don"t try the nazi comment route) . If you do not agree then go to learn the facts in a medical university when they will allow you but only if you have the A levels to qualify though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 For those without access to an online encyclopaedia: The 1853 Act required: That every child, whose health permits, shall be vaccinated within three, or in case of orphanage within four months of birth, by the public vaccinator of the district, or by some other medical practitioner. That parents or guardians who, without sufficient reason, after having duly received the registrar's notice of the requirement of Vaccination, either omit to have a child duly vaccinated, or, this being done, omit to have it inspected as to the results of Vaccination, shall be liable to a penalty of £1; and all penalties shall be recoverable under Jervis's Act, and shall be paid toward the local poor-rate. The 1889 Royal Commission issued 6 Reports between 1892 and 1896. Its recommendations, including the abolition of cumulative penalties and the use of safer vaccine were incorporated into the 1898 Vaccination Act. Why this is relevant? We all know that this vaccine was safe and effective as it wiped out smallpox and is estimated to have saved 100s of millions of lives. However people at the time still had concerns about its safety and its efficacy. The initial government response was to force the population to be vaccinated by compulsion, this created a anti-vax movement in the 1860s. The Royal Commission understood that it was the way the vaccine was forced into people that was the issue. Once it was no longer compulsory anti-vax sentiment dropped, vaccination rates went up and the UK then the world was cured of one of the most horrific, and deadly diseases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, bavarianbrit said: It is not to protect me wally, they are worn by all to protect all others from your droplets, I am 70 and take it more seriously, than you. I live in Germany with 85 million and 10K dead, you are in a 65 million country with 50K dead so do the math on that, respect others as the Germans do, they call the cops if people will not comply (don"t try the nazi comment route) . If you do not agree then go to learn the facts in a medical university when they will allow you but only if you have the A levels to qualify though. Please cite the RCT that shows that damp cloth and cheapie blue masks do protect you or anyone else in the way you suggest. You could fit 8000 virus particles side by side in 1mm. Is your mask really doing what you think it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, treetree said: You could fit 8000 virus particles side by side in 1mm. Is your mask really doing what you think it is? The mask reduces the exhaled droplets that carry the virus - not the individual virus organisms. But then you knew that anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 Most masks are not of suitable standard. However if you understand basic fluid dynamics (or test yourself with your bare hand) you will see that the mask itself (excluding valve types) reduce airspeed and this reduces the distance spread of droplets. Even if it only reduces infection rates by 1% is it a huge issue just to wear a mask when compelled to do so? We don’t wear them in the office as the proximity and duration would make them pointless, however you can understand that wearing them to the supermarket does no harm and probably helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: Perhaps because people don’t like having things forced on them 🤣 Ones a blood test , most people have had one at some time. Another is an improperly tested vaccine, injected into the body, for a disease we are still learning about, which allegedly came from a bat, or a pangolin ..maybe , because no ones really sure. But it's all ok because Bill Gates says so , and we all know Windows is a perfect operating system 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: The mask reduces the exhaled droplets that carry the virus - not the individual virus organisms. But then you knew that anyway. RCT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 minute ago, treetree said: RCT... In fact the law to wear one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted November 17, 2020 Report Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, bavarianbrit said: respect others as the Germans do, they call the cops if people will not comply (don"t try the nazi comment route) . Yea because the Germans aren’t rioting over the restrictions are they! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 7 hours ago, AVB said: Yea because the Germans aren’t rioting over the restrictions are they! Not through rose tinted glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 South Australia locking down after 36 cases ... news today. New Zealand widely praised for hard line approach. People temp tested and detained on the spot in China. Sweden? Northern Italian hospitals broken in Spring this year. The point I’m making is that whilst many are unhappy with how Boris is dealing with this .... there’s no consensus on how to do it best. I work with people in many EU countries, and every government faces the same battle with the virus, and behaviour. The biggest single thing we can do to break the transmission chain is to effectively social distance, and whilst crowds of beer fuelled pups can’t do that, it can’t be allowed. Arguments that it’s just the flu are grossly misleading as it’s statistically 2-25 times more fatal depending on location (McKinsey). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: The point I’m making is that whilst many are unhappy with how Boris is dealing with this .... there’s no consensus on how to do it best. I've picked one line to link to, but it's a good post throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: The point I’m making is that whilst many are unhappy with how Boris is dealing with this .... there’s no consensus on how to do it best. Not quite true... https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/prepared-for-the-worst-how-south-korea-fought-off-covid-19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said: Not quite true... S Korea did well - but just taking a few quotes from the article to which you have provided the link here, "The Korean people are also very obedient and very responsible towards their fellow humans" True - whereas the UK population has a large number who don't behave like this. "‘It was described as a “big snowy day”, an extended one, obviously. On such days, Korean people just stay at home.’ " Another thing the people here would not do unless locked down. "South Korea also made use of a track-and-trace system which filtered huge volumes of personal data from citizens’ cell phones, credit cards, and CCTV footage to pinpoint their movements." That would never get approval in the UK. "Prof Park has weighed the pros and cons of intrusion into her privacy against the UK’s experience with her ex-pat friends. ‘We are all agreeing that maybe a little bit of privacy intrusion and telling you what to do and what not to do might have been better than having 45,000 people die.’" Again - many here would not accept the 'intrusion into privacy' applied by Korea. I pick a few examples. Korea did well - very well, but would the methods used be welcomed here? Many would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Just now, JohnfromUK said: S Korea did well - but just taking a few quotes from the article to which you have provided the link here, "The Korean people are also very obedient and very responsible towards their fellow humans" True - whereas the UK population has a large number who don't behave like this. "‘It was described as a “big snowy day”, an extended one, obviously. On such days, Korean people just stay at home.’ " Another thing the people here would not do unless locked down. "South Korea also made use of a track-and-trace system which filtered huge volumes of personal data from citizens’ cell phones, credit cards, and CCTV footage to pinpoint their movements." That would never get approval in the UK. "Prof Park has weighed the pros and cons of intrusion into her privacy against the UK’s experience with her ex-pat friends. ‘We are all agreeing that maybe a little bit of privacy intrusion and telling you what to do and what not to do might have been better than having 45,000 people die.’" Again - many here would not accept the 'intrusion into privacy' applied by Korea. I pick a few examples. Korea did well - very well, but would the methods used be welcomed here? Many would not. I agree with you. We are an unruly mob to be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Just now, WalkedUp said: I agree with you. We are an unruly mob to be fair. I am fairly 'accepting' in respect of the idea of much better tracking to control this outbreak - but even I would be uncomfortable with the level of 'Big Brother is watching you' that applies in Korea. It's not that it wouldn't help - but that once introduced - it would never be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 A former colleague who's moved to Portugal noted the stark cultural differences between the two populations when he visited over summer..... "In Portugal ... everyone just does what they're told .. over here everyone bitching and moaning ...." I suppose people will be on here soon saying how that shows 'we've got minds of our own' and 'how spineless our European cousins are' .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: That shows 'we've got minds of our own' and 'how spineless our European cousins are' .... Damn right 👍 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, WalkedUp said: Not quite true... https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/prepared-for-the-worst-how-south-korea-fought-off-covid-19 The consensus I was looking for was amongst the PW experts ... thanks for sharing it anyway 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 19 hours ago, Rewulf said: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-top-tory-alok-sharma-23001000 It definitely will ! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-lockdown-matt-hancock-boris-johnson-b1723605.html It might not ! https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/lockdown-end-december-tiers-review-robert-jenrick-b72154.html It will, but it wont The government also has a duty of care , and seeing as they wont trust us to use common sense, they are forcing upon us, measures that are not only mentally and emotionally cruel, but economically destructive. Not one member of government or SAGE will suffer financially over the covid response, their jobs ,salaries and pensions are well protected from the fallout. Perhaps they should think about it in 'a different light' ? When alls said and done, we are going to have a hard time getting back to normal, but it is achievable, with Xmas being a large part of that , I fully reject this notion that 'things will never be the same again' this line of thinking is designed to scare people into doing as they are told. Its the tactics of the bully, and even the staunchest supporter of measure are absolutely sick of being spoken to like a child. Stories and videos of huge numbers of police officers being sent to forcibly close businesses , while homes are being burgled, people robbed and raped ? People eyeing up non mask wearers with suspicion and anger, neighbours reporting each other because they suspect someone has come round their house who shouldnt ? What kind of country are we becoming ? Where are projections that put us into lockdowns 1 and 2 ? How were they reached ? Why is this information not available for peer review ? (Did they literally just think of a number ?) Even the respected Worldometer site has (quietly) revised its projections RIGHT DOWN to make this winters 'covid' deaths far lower than Springs. (Its original graph had it at between twice and 4x as bad, with an average of 4000 deaths a day by Xmas) Its about time the UK and many other governments put their hands up , and recognised that, rightly or wrongly , they may have over estimated the impact of covid. The trouble is , no one has the balls to admit they got it wrong and wrecked the economy. Spot on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 17 hours ago, Gordon R said: The Country hasn't got a fool-proof computer system and all those introduced in the last twenty years have been staggering failures. I helped delivered a successful one for the MOD I also worked on NPfIT as well to my shame 😞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Smokersmith said: The consensus I was looking for was amongst the PW experts I dont believe there are any self proclaimed experts here, but a bit of critical thinking is not always a bad thing. Especially when the actual experts seem to get it so consistently wrong (Ferguson ?) If the spread of the virus, originally touted as a 3-6 % mortality rate , with NO evidence to support that figure, was mapped out , and strategies planned from the end of February for Europe, why did it work so poorly ? Even when the actual figure averages around 0.2 % mortality ? For the second 'wave' that was predicted back in lockdown 1 , why send the kids back to school , why reopen hospitality ? If they really believed in the 4000 deaths a day scenario, why would you do that ? It seems the UK relies far too much on the fear factor to keep people in line, but old and young alike , simply arent buying it this time around, we were promised bodies piled up in the street ! Our ridiculous method of counting deaths within 28 days of a positive test (down from 60 days) guarantees our death figures remain inflated beyond any kind of real figure. The fact that literally no one officially recovers in this country is another peculiarity , for what reason ? There still seems to be a concerted effort to put any and all deaths down to 'covid related' I personally know of 3 people who died 'with covid' , 1 died of multiple organ failure due to chronic alcoholism, 1 with terminal cancer, and one a diabetic who needed urgent dialysis (but couldnt get it) and died of kidney failure. Not one of them had a test BEFORE they died, and in 2 cases the relatives had to take action to have covid removed from the death certificate...WHY ? Like I said before, how long has this disease been around, if you look at the graphs , it peaked in April ? So how does this work ? The history of the pandemic could be reshaped after more findings suggest coronavirus has been circulating in Italy since last summer. Tests on nearly 1,000 people’s blood samples from September 2019 onwards showed Covid-19 antibodies were present in 11 percent of participants. The samples were from people who had taken part in a lung cancer screening trial running from September 2019 to the following March, and all were asymptomatic at the time of their blood test. The study was conducted by scientists at Milan’s National Institute of Cancer and the University of Siena, and published by the Tumori Journal. The data has been praised as particularly valuable for its basis on blood samples, compared to another study by Italian scientists, which showed traces of coronavirus in sewage water from December 2019. These new findings bring the entire timeline of the pandemic into question, as the outbreak was originally believed to have started in Wuhan in December 2019. It also supports research from other European countries that found traces of Covid-19 were present before the outbreak was confirmed this year. The study’s conclusions also seem to be consistent with reports of severe respiratory symptoms and “atypical flu” rampant among Italy’s elderly late in 2019. Similar findings have been made by scientists from other countries as well. Spanish researchers have claimed they’ve traced coronavirus in sewage samples taken as early as March 2019. Analysis of hospital records from late 2019 in the US has also suggested the unusual amount of ‘flu’ patients, many of whom experienced heavy “coughing” and other severe respiratory symptoms. Globally, the number of registered Covid-19 cases has gone past the 54-million mark, while more than 1.3 million people have perished, the latest figures by the Johns Hopkins University show. With the mounting evidence that the outbreak began well before its ‘official’ start, it’s becoming more likely the true extent of the pandemic will one day be revised. Edited November 18, 2020 by Rewulf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Quote I helped delivered a successful one for the MOD That rather depends on how you judge success. Most have been a disaster and I would need to see full facts for any system claiming success. Results depend mainly on who is writing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Gordon R said: That rather depends on how you judge success. Most have been a disaster and I would need to see full facts for any system claiming success. Results depend mainly on who is writing them. It went in - and was actually used as a totem for an MP in parliament when bashing government on how bad their projects are (I suppose it was one step removed from Government) as to how projects can be delivered successfully, on time and on budget. It delivered all over its contracted lifespan (10 years) and I was invited back to it's retirement party last year up the BT Tower. It was nice as well that my work was called out as to the success of the project during the presentation. I am exceedingly proud of that - and besides my children is one of my greatest achievements - oh I forgot - I once made the wife smile !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 discobob- well done. I believe yours was the exception to the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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