Howling at the moon or credible scenario? Mass law-breaking

[Pangolin]

1 minute ago, treetree said:

Yes  The Danish study, the largest of its kind and done using randomised control trial, the gold standard in studying causal relationships, showed no statistically significant difference in infection rates between non-mask wearers and mask. wearers.

This whole sorry saga has now become an intelligence test, one that most people are failing.

Even attempting to question it was being suppressed.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, treetree said:

Yes  The Danish study, the largest of its kind and done using randomised control trial, the gold standard in studying causal relationships, showed no statistically significant difference in infection rates between non-mask wearers and mask. wearers.

This whole sorry saga has now become an intelligence test, one that most people are failing.

Wasn’t the UK scientific advice at the beginning, in February/ March of last year, that masks were of little value? Somewhere along the way they became compulsory. 
I’m not sure it’s a matter of intelligence thing, more of a you won’t get in the shop without one thing. 
I’ve been pricing jobs on a daily basis throughout the pandemic, in and out of people’s houses, and have only been asked to wear a mask once while at work, and that was by the wife of a friend who was undergoing cancer treatment. Within an hour of starting at their house he handed me a brew, no mask on.  🤷‍♂️

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, mel b3 said:

People putting on a mask before entering a shop , aren't subservient freaks , they're just normal people going about their necessary business

 

14 hours ago, mel b3 said:

I think you'll find that exaggerated mask fitting,  is mainly in your imagination buddy

14 hours ago, ordnance said:

You have a issue with how people put their masks on and keep their distance, you are easily annoyed. 

I too have seen people making a song-and-dance of putting a mask on outside a shop.  They appear to be enjoying it.

I've also seen people excessively loudly cursing at having to put one on.

Either lacks class, though the latter is more understandable in my opinion.

Regardless, no free society dictates muzzling up for, at best, questionable efficacy.

 

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

But hey, why let science and logic get in the way of some rules eh?

Indeed.  People like simple.  We witness time and again the  over-application of Occam's razor, to all our detriment:

Lockdowns save lives  - case not proven, see ever-increasing number of countries/states not locked down with better metrics than us.

Masks work - look at the literature, not really

Lead is poisonous - yes, but you won't get poisoning from accidently ingesting lead shot

Banning handguns prevent school shootings - where to even begin with this asinine nonsense

 

16 hours ago, Scully said:

there just has to be an inquiry into the absolutely moronic and abysmally emotive, negative scaremongering reporting by our media.

Everything SAGE does is with an eye on the inevitable public inquiry.

Hang the lives lost, ruined and livelihoods, childhoods gone along the way.  Hence Chris Whitty's latest  '30k extra deaths this summer ' backside covering exercise.  And the media just lap it up, unquestioningly.

[ordnance]

Quote

Regardless, no free society dictates muzzling up for, at best, questionable efficacy.

Thy are masks not muzzles theirs a difference, do doctors nurses etc wear muzzles or masks. 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

They are masks not muzzles theirs  there's a difference, do doctors nurses etc wear muzzles or masks. 

As l'm sure you realised, I used the term 'muzzles' for rhetorical effect.  Because government dictating what I wear, feels like a muzzling of my freedom.

As for front line medical staff wearing them (global pandemic or not), how is that relevant?

In any case, they are trained to use them properly.  They will use single-use items of PPE, correctly, once.

There is simply no comparison between the efficacy of a clinician donning them in a medical setting, and making the general population wear them, without training, for doing the shopping.

All the experts were telling us as much a year ago  - can you genuinely not recall that?

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There is simply no comparison between the efficacy of a clinician donning them in a medical setting, and making the general population wear them, without training, for doing the shopping.

All the experts were telling us as much a year ago  - can you genuinely not recall that?

Spot on.
C'mon , whose got a mask in their pocket they use when they need to , thats not been changed in weeks, looks like a bum wipe, or if fabric , has never been washed ? 

Do you really believe that its better to wear a dirty mask, or no mask at all ?

There are people out there who have become so mask compliant, wearing them alone walking , jogging !, or driving alone, I often wonder if they wear they to bed, just in case ? 

[Mice!]

48 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

All the experts were telling us as much a year ago  - can you genuinely not recall that?

I'm sure it was all about not buying up the masks that were available,  like the toilet rolls,  I'm sure you can remember that. 

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do you really believe that its better to wear a dirty mask, or no mask at all ?

A dirty mask will still stop a sneeze or cough for what it's worth though.

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There are people out there who have become so mask compliant, wearing them alone walking , jogging !, or driving alone, I often wonder if they wear they to bed, just in case

I haven't worked out why people out on their own wear masks, but then I haven't worked out why some people think just pulling their t-shirt or jumper over their mouth is good enough once they get to the check out,  it was quite funny watching the woman at the till hand a fella a mask a few weeks ago, trying to sort his shopping,  pay and keep his top held over his mouth.

[Yellow Bear]

Perhaps the anti maskers who keep quoting the Danish study would like to read this article from nature and follow the further reading.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

 

I also cannot understand why people on  their own outside wear them unless they know they are infectious and are going against guidance to isolate.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Yellow Bear

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

As l'm sure you realised, I used the term 'muzzles' for rhetorical effect.  Because government dictating what I wear, feels like a muzzling of my freedom.

As for front line medical staff wearing them (global pandemic or not), how is that relevant?

In any case, they are trained to use them properly.  They will use single-use items of PPE, correctly, once.

There is simply no comparison between the efficacy of a clinician donning them in a medical setting, and making the general population wear them, without training, for doing the shopping.

All the experts were telling us as much a year ago  - can you genuinely not recall that?

I can do without the patronising smart - *** spell check, thanks all the same. 

[udderlyoffroad]

27 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I'm sure it was all about not buying up the masks that were available

No.

It was for clinical efficacy/lack of training of the great unwashed reasons mentioned above.

The government also didn't advise us to stop wiping our bums, or use only three sheets (one up, one down, one to polish) because of a toilet paper shortage, did they?

Granted the supply situation wasn't ideal, but that should have no bearing on the official government advice of whether to wear one or not, which, once again, at the time was "No, don't wear one, in the round they cause more problems than they solve, if you're not trained how to use them properly"

Once more, has that completely slipped your mind, or does that just not fit with your world view?

44 minutes ago, Mice! said:

A dirty mask will still stop a sneeze or cough for what it's worth though.

 A dirty mask may cause issues for the wearer, which could be a greater risk, than those around him being exposed to his droplets.

A bacteria soaked rag, held close to the face of someone who is immuno-compromised, for instance, might very well cause problems.

Think of it this way, It's the difference between micro and macro scale:

On a micro scale, masks prevent the spread of droplets - assuming you ignore all other factors, including human failure and lack of training. 

Once you scale that up to the macro - i.e. impose that requirement on the general population, including recalcitrant, stupid or just untrained humans - then the case is far less clear cut.  You have factor in people who may get seriously sick *as a result* of having to wear masks onto your rather grim spreadsheet.

Public health is the art and science of balancing these risks. 

Masks are such an egregious imposition, not only because of the freedom implications, but because overnight the official government advice did a complete 180.  What suddenly changed?

Spoiler...I'd bet good money that the public inquiry will reveal that it was Boris being subject to endless "Won't somebody please think of the children?!" questions from the media, rather than sound clinical reasons...

 

[udderlyoffroad]

22 minutes ago, ordnance said:

I can do without the patronising smart - *** spell check, thanks all the same. 

You made two spelling and one grammatical mistake in one sentence.  I would've let that slide, but for the fact you were taking me to task on my use of a phrase.

Dish it out, but can't take it, springs to mind.

[ordnance]

11 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You made two spelling and one grammatical mistake in one sentence.  I would've let that slide, but for the fact you were taking me to task on my use of a phrase.

Dish it out, but can't take it, springs to mind.

 The muzzle is a deliberate emotive term, we are talking about masks. My grammar and spelling is not your concern, but i know all forums have a patronising spell checker, its just a fact of life. 

[ordnance]

Quote

As for masks i will go with the real experts, rather than the internet and forum experts that seem to be springing up everywhere

 

FactCheck: Yes, masks, including cloth masks, can help ...

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Spot on.
C'mon , whose got a mask in their pocket they use when they need to , thats not been changed in weeks, looks like a bum wipe, or if fabric , has never been washed ? 

 

😂Guilty! My OH says I’m an embarrassment to be seen with ! 

[udderlyoffroad]

49 minutes ago, ordnance said:

As for masks i will go with the real experts, rather than the internet and forum experts that seem to be springing up everywhere

The "real experts" you seek solice in, changed their advice overnight, from urging us all to do one thing, to requiring us to do the complete opposite.

You...you don't find that strange at all?

Remember the hooha about medical advice suddenly changing as whether to lie babies on their back or front to prevent SID?  That, very literally flipped overnight.  Cue outcry.  No such outcry for mask advice changing at a similar pace.

The Irish factcheck article you linked to contains no reference to UK government advice - what we're discussing here - and repeatedly cites posts on Facebook and Twitter as the source of claims.

Also, its use of referencing is appalling and would earn you no marks in any undergrad level assignment.

Not to say they aren't quoting proper research, but my god do they make it hard. These fact check articles are essentially literature reviews.

Dumbening down to the point of uselessness.

 

[clangerman]

watching panorama now on the supply of ppe is interesting if you can bear the stench of making 17 million from the sick and dying 

[Jim Neal]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

C'mon , whose got a mask in their pocket they use when they need to , thats not been changed in weeks, looks like a bum wipe, or if fabric , has never been washed ? 

I'm the proud owner of a disposable mask that's been in the glove box of my car since last June!  It's a fetching shade of pale blue-brown 😁  Buy hey it makes me "legal" in a shop.

The debate whether or not masks are effective goes back and forth and will do perpetually; everyone can find an article online to back up their opinion, whichever side of the fence they're on.  But one thing I don't think anyone's touched on yet is the more likely explanation: masks have simply been prescribed to the population as a placebo.  For many people, the ones who have been peeping out from behind the sofa, wearing their mask gives them an implied feeling of security and safeness.  I think mask wearing has been introduced mainly to lessen the worry in people's heads as they run the perilous gauntlet of going to the shops for some food.

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

It was for clinical efficacy/lack of training of the great unwashed reasons mentioned above.

 

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Granted the supply situation wasn't ideal, but that should have no bearing on the official government advice of whether to wear one or not, which, once again, at the time was "No, don't wear one, in the round they cause more problems than they solve, if you're not trained how to use them properly"

I'm quite sure with the demand from nhs and care homes the government didn't want people panic buying the masks, which they would have.

Then once the demand was met they said to wear masks in order to minimise the spread, pretty simple really,  massive difference from being in Tesco (other shops are available) to dealing with covid patients face to face all day long, so a simple disposable mask along with good hygiene should be good enough. 

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

A dirty mask may cause issues for the wearer, which could be a greater risk, than those around him being exposed to his droplets.

A bacteria soaked rag, held close to the face of someone who is immuno-compromised, for instance, might very well cause problems.

It's so very easy though to change your masks every week, most of mine get worn a few times, put in coat pockets and if I think they look tatty or dirty I bin them for new ones, seems to me a few on here think having a really dirty mask is a way of sticking two fingers up, all its doing is showing they couldn't care less. 

 

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Spoiler...I'd bet good money that the public inquiry will reveal that it was Boris being subject to endless "Won't somebody please think of the children?!" questions from the media, rather than sound clinical reasons...

I've been of the impression it's about thinking of the old people or those who would end up in hospital if they caught covid, but I doubt there is a funny Simpsons clip about that.

[Jim Neal]

31 minutes ago, Mice! said:

all its doing is showing they couldn't care less.

...or that they know it makes no difference

[Rewulf]

51 minutes ago, Mice! said:

so very easy though to change your masks every week, most of mine get worn a few times, put in coat pockets and if I think they look tatty or dirty I bin them for new ones,

Sounds very scientific 😂

Well at least you change it 'slightly' more often than us selfish OAP killers. 

[Mice!]

It's not hard though wearing a mask to shop is it, not when you compare it to wearing one all day working in a hospital. 

And yet people seem to think it's the end of the world. I'd hate to see how we'd get on with real restrictions.

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Sounds very scientific

With maybe 5 masks on the go it's working for me.

[Jim Neal]

[das]

On 13/03/2021 at 12:41, spurs 14 said:

We’ve all stuck together and it’s hopefully nearing an end with the vaccinations and warmer weather coming ,it’s at last going the right way ,

 yes I’m desperate to get out, need a haircut , want to see family etc but let’s all stick it out for a bit longer and finish this 

One of the more sensible comments in this forum.

[Vince Green]

Whats the big deal with wearing a mask? Its not a big deal.

Just put it on and stop behaving like my mate who refuses to wear one "on principle". And his principle? he doesn't like being told what to do. So he lies and says he's exempt.

I remember the same sort of idiots going on about seat belts and crash helmets

Edited March 18, 2021 by Vince Green

[udderlyoffroad]

On 15/03/2021 at 20:25, Jim Neal said:

But one thing I don't think anyone's touched on yet is the more likely explanation: masks have simply been prescribed to the population as a placebo.

Nail.  Head.

On 15/03/2021 at 22:36, Mice! said:

And yet people seem to think it's the end of the world. I'd hate to see how we'd get on with real restrictions.

I dread to think what your idea of 'real restrictions' are, but I was born in a free country.  I haven't seen my family in over a year.  That's is real restrictions.

On 15/03/2021 at 21:29, Mice! said:

I've been of the impression it's about thinking of the old people or those who would end up in hospital if they caught covid, but I doubt there is a funny Simpsons clip about that.

I'm sure there probably is, but I'll go with Star Wars instead: The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

You can't even acknowledge that the advice was different before. But now you follow it, only you don't, with your rather laissez-faire interpretation of how disposable masks work ("I've got 5 on the go") could quite literally be killing granny.  Probably.

My point is, you espouse on public forum that masks work, that they are no trouble at all to wear, why isn't everyone doing so, then immediately proceed to tell us that you're not following the rules, as you perceive what you do to be 'good enough'??  Moral equivalence much?

Back to the original point of this thread:  So now the vaccine supplies are being delayed by a month.  Still think all the restrictions will be gone by July?  Dream on. 

Does anybody on here, seriously, if they're honest with themselves, believe restrictions will be lifted?