Howling at the moon or credible scenario? Mass law-breaking

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'm clearly not making point simple enough; there will be an immediate change in tone for the worse from the officers, if you do not have a means to prove your ID on you.  And, this is not just confined being stopped whilst driving.  Hence my assertion that driving licences are, in the absence of formal ID cards, the de facto ID card in this country.

The 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' argument is such bunkum I won't dignify it with a response, save for saying that I do agree that ensuring you have valid MOT, insurance, valid driving licence and a road-worthy vehicle is about the best protection you can have against the rage of a grumpy traffic officer.

 

 

I can’t say that’s my experience at all. Because of the area in which I live, there is a period in the year when myself and many locals are stopped on a quite regular basis. I don’t carry my driving license with me on principal, never have, yet have never encountered a grumpy traffic cop. Only twice have I ( and I’m going back quite some years now ) been asked to produce documents at a cop shop.
My identity has usually been established within seconds of being stopped. 🤷‍♂️

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

What's your point?  That young people want to have a good time, despite some epic level Orwellian-**** being introduced by a so-called Conservative government, with the official opposition doing their best porn-star impression ("Faster!  Harder!")?

My point is that this country isn't as bad as you would like to think.

While we have been doing as were told, getting vaccinated and now getting on with things, other countries are it seems way behind,  but I did read that areas of Australia are in lockdown despite just a few hundred cases.

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And your point is?  How far one of our Commonwealth partners have fallen too?

My point is Canada closed its border to America,  the USA has been stated many times for not doing this or that, masks , vaccines etc as if we should be doing the same but obviously Canada looked and thought no thanks, despite the number of tourists that must travel each way.

 

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I can’t say that’s my experience at all. Because of the area in which I live, there is a period in the year when myself and many locals are stopped on a quite regular basis. I don’t carry my driving license with me on principal, never have, yet have never encountered a grumpy traffic cop. Only twice have I ( and I’m going back quite some years now ) been asked to produce documents at a cop shop.
My identity has usually been established within seconds of being stopped. 🤷‍♂️

That's my experience,  I haven't been pulled for a long time, but I've been pulled stinking of alcohol,  guns and rabbits in the boot, mates who were incoherent and I've never had any issues, funny that.

[henry d]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You seemingly don't understand the term de-facto.  Even when not driving, if asked by the police for identification, and you don't have any, the mood will quickly change, even if there is no legal obligation for you to carry any.

For this reason, and the fact that a provisional licence costs about the same as a 'prove it' age verification card, even young people who do not intend learning to drive will get a provisional licence.  It's the path of least resistance for them

Good grief, what utter tosh!

1 - The police do not stop people without a reason, you are conflating this to push your belief.

2 - Way back when, for me the late 70's, the provisional license was just that, pubs would ask you your DOB as did the police, and neither really cared unless you couldn't remember a reasonable DOB. So it has existed for some time, again you use that as an attempt to prove your point. 

3 - Try being a human for once and not some sneering 🔔🔚

[Gordon R]

Quote

I'm clearly not making point simple enough; there will be an immediate change in tone for the worse from the officers, if you do not have a means to prove your ID on you.

Your generalised slagging of the Police is plainly wrong. Your arrogant, patronising posts do you no credit. You appear to be a bit out of your depth. 

[udderlyoffroad]

 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

1 - The police do not stop people without a reason, you are conflating this to push your belief.

I never said that they didn't.  Further on I've stated that whether a copper is unreasonable or not, the best defence is to not give them a reason to pull you over in the first place, but of course you've skipped over that.

Further, I have no problem with 'coppers instinct', nor even the occasional application of 'the ways and means act'.

 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Way back when, for me the late 70's, the provisional license was just that, pubs would ask you your DOB as did the police, and neither really cared unless you couldn't remember a reasonable DOB. So it has existed for some time, again you use that as an attempt to prove your point. 

Aahaha the 70s....50 years ago!  Let me assure you that publicans just asking your DOB isn't how it works today.   I was an yoof in the 2000s, when things were different. Despite a  clean nose, not having a provisional driving licence (or other form of ID, all of which had similar costs/hassle involved, as a I've also previously pointed out) would mean a brief chat with the constabulary would end likely differently. 

Being keen to get on the road as soon as reasonably practicable when turning 17, I had the licence application in the post the next day.  It was my mates who didn't who encountered more problems.  But of course, my lived experience doesn't count, whereas yours does?

 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

3 - Try being a human for once and not some sneering 🔔🔚

I see the forum rule of playing the man not the ball continues to pass you by.  You might try leading by example.

 

19 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Your generalised slagging of the Police is plainly wrong. Your arrogant, patronising posts do you no credit. You appear to be a bit out of your depth. 

When have I slagged (sic) the police? 

My point was that through a classic British fudge we have come into a situation where we are not required to carry ID, but sort of are.  Those that appear to be denying this, are, let's be kind for the most part retired, and most of their interactions with the police were apparently in the 70s.  Which somehow invalidates my experience in the early 2000s?

Incidentally, I suspect not one word I've said would be denied (on the QT) by 3 mates who are currently serving coppers, they would probably admit that  No ID = probably a wrong'un.  Who am I to deny their coppering instincts?

Speaking of which, I also grew up in a country where there is definitely a requirement to carry ID, but perversely because I was a teenager growing up in such a small village, nobody ever saw a policeman, much less got told "Ausweisen!"

 

 

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

but I've been pulled stinking of alcohol,  guns and rabbits in the boot, mates who were incoherent and I've never had any issues, funny that.

Possibly because none of the above is illegal?  Though I assume the reeking of booze didn't extend to your breath otherwise you'd have been blowing into a tube before being sent on your way?

At no point have I said that having a lousy attitude towards the police will endear you to them either.  In fact, that is likely worse than not carrying ID.  I've never advocated for giving them lip.

Note, this idea that we still expect fair treatment from the police (keeping the queen's peace, policing by consent and all that) is not universal and doesn't extend outside the UK...

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

While we have been doing as were told, getting vaccinated and now getting on with things, other countries are it seems way behind

Which (western) country do you think is 'way behind'?  We have utterly squandered whatever early lead we had in the vaccine arms race.

The empty shelves in my local supermarket yesterday didn't scream 'getting on with things' to me, neither does furlough going on til September.  

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

but I did read that areas of Australia are in lockdown despite just a few hundred cases.

Australia, its zero COVID strategy, and especially the State of Victoria's brutal lockdown will pass into the annals of history as amongst the worst peacetime excesses of a nation that calls itself a democracy.

 

[Mice!]

15 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

see the forum rule of playing the man not the ball continues to pass you by.  You might try leading by example.

This is actually why I stopped replying to things you post, anyone who has a different opinion or experience effectively gets shouted down.

16 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Possibly because none of the above is illegal?  Though I assume the reeking of booze didn't extend to your breath otherwise you'd have been blowing into a tube before being sent on your way?

At no point have I said that having a lousy attitude towards the police will endear you to them either.  In fact, that is likely worse than not carrying ID.  I've never advocated for giving them lip.

Note, this idea that we still expect fair treatment from the police (keeping the queen's peace, policing by consent and all that) is not universal and doesn't extend outside the UK

I was blowing into the breathalyser two or three weeks on the run because I stank of booze, from working at a pub, no issues at all, blow please sir, the first time he likely thought got ya, after a few weeks I'd get pulled but waved on.

I had no issues with the above,  drink driver's are only going to get caught this way.

I don't live outside the UK and anytime I'm abroad try my best to avoid the police, although I don't think I've ever spoken to a copper abroad. 

21 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Which (western) country do you think is 'way behind'?  We have utterly squandered whatever early lead we had in the vaccine arms race.

The empty shelves in my local supermarket yesterday didn't scream 'getting on with things' to me, neither does furlough going on til September.  

We are ahead of practically everyone with the vaccine,  we aren't rioting (not yet 😅) and I say most of the country are happily getting on with it, its summer and restrictions have been lifted.

I can't comment on empty shelves because I haven't seen any,  its probably just a logistics issue. 

26 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

My point was that through a classic British fudge we have come into a situation where we are not required to carry ID, but sort of are.  Those that appear to be denying this, are, let's be kind for the most part retired, and most of their interactions with the police were apparently in the 70s.  Which somehow invalidates my experience in the early 2000s?

Well I'm 44, not carrying ID has caused me zero issues what so ever in my life.

But I do find it amusing that people who have been checked for shotgun and fire arms licences are concerned about having to produce ID, my mates wife got asked for proof of age last week, at 34 she was quite thrilled.

32 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Australia, its zero COVID strategy, and especially the State of Victoria's brutal lockdown will pass into the annals of history as amongst the worst peacetime excesses of a nation that calls itself a democracy.

On this I can agree, the article I read said it was all about the Indian variant,  but to shut a state for a few hundred cases seems ridiculous. 

[discobob]

On 21/07/2021 at 14:12, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Come on, someone mention Adolf!        

Why does Mr Engler have to come into this??https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Engler

On 21/07/2021 at 17:15, 12gauge82 said:

By straight forward I suppose I meant honest and by honest I mean he absolutely will use subterfuge to achieve his purpose, but will usually be the purpose of a greater good that can't be passed in a straight way, due to woke agendas, but it will be what the average Joe on the street wants. I think it it partly this that has allowed the cons to take traditional labour seats. 

But whose greater good??? and I say that as being a previously life long Conservative voter who voted Conservative in the last election because there just wasn't a viable alternative - not on our ticket anyway

On 23/07/2021 at 18:44, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Where she went wrong was allowing Council Houses to be bought at massive discounts and not build the same amount or ideally more!

The mistake was there was no enforcement on the Councils who actually received the money to then have to use it to build more housing stock.... In other words they used the money for whatever they want

16 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I will let you off as you aren't old enough to remember - but correct a factual inaccuracy in the above. 

It did not do the above.  In fact one of the major complaints is that it didn't take into account your ability to pay.  It was (actually called "The Community Charge" and was a single flat rate tax on every adult set by the local authority.

Instead of one tax being levied on a household (irrespective of the number of persons in that household) based on the property value (much as we have now), the idea was that the tax would apply to all adults.  So;

• A household with one single person living alone in a larger property paid one 'community charge'.  In today's value that would probably have been say about £200.
• A household with say 2 parents, two adult children living at home, and one child's adult partner living at home was 5 adults - and so paid 5 'community charges'.  In today's value that would probably have been say about £1000.

The idea was to charge every 'income bringer' equally.  Crucially, it was flat rate and didn't take into account 'ability to pay', although the usual assistances/benefits/rebates were available to disabled etc. and I think full time students may have been exempted.

I was a full time student at the time (RAF training) and had to pay Community Charge....

When I was in Cyprus I had to pay UK council tax on the Hiring (non-quarters) apartment in Limassol - docked straight from my pay

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, discobob said:

I was a full time student at the time (RAF training) and had to pay Community Charge....

I stand corrected.

[Gordon R]

Quote

When have I slagged (sic) the police? 

Quote

if asked by the police for identification, and you don't have any, the mood will quickly change

I trust it was just a slip in your memory, suggesting the Police are unprofessional. Of course, your version would be backed up, but not publicly, by your three mates.

Laughable would be too kind.

[udderlyoffroad]

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

Well I'm 44, not carrying ID has caused me zero issues what so ever in my life.

But I do find it amusing that people who have been checked for shotgun and fire arms licences are concerned about having to produce ID, my mates wife got asked for proof of age last week, at 34 she was quite thrilled.

There's a difference between being asked to prove your age and being asked for ID.  As others have pointed out 'in their day' - proving your age was done by the landlord asking them their DoB.  Now it's done by whipping out your official/unofficial state ID, the driving licence.  I merely pointed out that it had become some de facto form of ID, as a side point.  Que howls of protest from those of a certain age, regaling us with tails from a time when men were men, and coppers were required to have big moustaches.

Not sure how being 'checked' for SGCs/FACs is relevant.  I certainly don't suggest producing it as a form of ID.

My my main point was the path government has gone down - despite repeatedly assuring us it wouldn't go down this path - is frankly pretty frightening.

Some are seemingly happy to live a state where showing your papers just to get life's essentials is de rig....actually let's avoid the latin...considered the norm.   I'm not, this is not the UK or any other developed democracy.

Come to think of it, we should probably avoid the term 'showing your papers' - checking in with a QR code is probably more accurate.  I'll be damned if I'm doing that just to get into Lidl.  It was a gross infringement of personal liberties to have to do it in a pub.

10 hours ago, Mice! said:

We are ahead of practically everyone with the vaccine,  we aren't rioting (not yet 😅) and I say most of the country are happily getting on with it, its summer and restrictions have been lifted.

Do you get your news from the BBC?   😂 Plenty of protests happening, but the media seems to only report on the loony fringes, the Piers Corbyns of this world who are convinced 5G will kill us all.

It's worth stating the the Venn Diagram of people who are anti vax and the people who are against vac passports, has considerable overlap, but they are not one and the same thing.  Plenty of the latter who have the vaccine.

10 hours ago, Mice! said:

can't comment on empty shelves because I haven't seen any,  its probably just a logistics issue. 

Right, and COVID is probably just a respiratory issue.  Admittedly there is a perfect storm of the 'pingdemic', Brexit-Border-shambles, and the UK government's continued slavish following of EU legislation to make becoming an HGV driver as difficult as possible, but can you see how they could easily remove one of these elements?

Supermarket truck drivers especially do not (have to) tip their own loads, there is zero reason for them to self-isolate, they can do so in their cabs!

[udderlyoffroad]

25 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I trust it was just a slip in your memory, suggesting the Police are unprofessional. Of course, your version would be backed up, but not publicly, by your three mates.

Laughable would be too kind.

You...seem angry that I've apparently suggested the police could be unprofessional?  I didn't by the way.  I take it you've never once allowed your professional standards to slip?

Really I don't know why you're so riled by suggestion that we've ended up in a state where there is sort-of a requirement to carry ID.

It may not be your lived experience, and it certainly isn't my recent experience, but I'd suggest if you're below the age 30 in 2021 (not the 70s), your lived experience might be different.

You can either agree with me or not, it was frankly just a side point from my main point.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I've apparently suggested the police could be unprofessional?  I didn't by the way.

You need to read your post before pressing enter. I am not angry in the slightest. I merely thought that your comment about the Police was inaccurate - which it was.

You didn't say the Police let their professional standards slip just once, you implied that they let their standards fall on every occsaion that someone had no ID.

You are entitled to your view, which I cannot subscribe to, but you seem to be a very odd individual.

[udderlyoffroad]

30 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

You are entitled to your view, which I cannot subscribe to, but you seem to be a very odd individual.

So far, according to you, I've been 'out of my depth', 'slagged the police' (sic), and seemingly missed something about why ID cards never made it passed the embryonic stage during the New Labour years.  And now I'm odd.

And why do you ascribe "implied that they let their standards fall on every occasion that someone had no ID." - It is an expectation of the constabulary these days that you have ID on you.  Possibly not for us old farts, but certainly for the youth.  It's a massive leap to then say their professional standards will fall - I said the conversation will likely end differently. 

You are taking what I said and running away with it.

 

[mel b3]

Udderlyoffroad. 

Please don't be offended by my question,  but is English your first language ?.

[Gordon R]

Quote

And why do you ascribe "implied that they let their standards fall on every occasion that someone had no ID." - It is an expectation of the constabulary these days that you have ID on you.  Possibly not for us old farts, but certainly for the youth.  It's a massive leap to then say their professional standards will fall - I said the conversation will likely end differently. 

I'm with mel b3 on this - I genuinely do wonder if you understand what you write. 

[discobob]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I stand corrected.

I wasn't correcting you - just putting my experience - Higher Education/6th form/college may have been different - I was being paid as a LAC when in training

[TIGHTCHOKE]

What a very interesting thread!  

[udderlyoffroad]

33 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I'm with mel b3 on this - I genuinely do wonder if you understand what you write. 

Do I not English good enough for you - It's really hard being a Russian Bot you know, especially since the money dried up after Biden won 🤣

All I said was we have ended up by accident with ID cards for the younger people today -  Entirely tangential to my main point about the worrying direction of travel with respect to vax passports.

Moving on to VPs - We don't know what VP will entail yet; will there be some kind of challenge system?  Viz, will you present your smartphone's QR code for scanning at a terminal at the entrance to wherever you wish to access, similar to an entry barrier for the Tube or at airports prior to going through security? 

According this BBC article ( I know, but was the first google result), the NHS 'COVID Pass' issues you a QR code, valid for 28days. 

So the expectation will be on the venues to implement some kind of barrier system/terminal at the point of entry?  It's August next week, and they want this to be up and running for nightclubs by September.  What could possibly go wrong? 😁

Even if you think the nightclubs deadline could be flexible, what about for Unis?  Students come back mid-way through September.  I've worked for a Uni IT department (admittedly only p/t as an IT support bod) - do we really think they'll be able to roll this out by then?  And where should the 'challenge point' be?  Before lectures?  Before being allowed to take up residence in halls?  Before entry to the SU bar?  Does this happen every time, multiple times per day, or only once before you're allowed onto campus?  Because campuses don't exactly have rings of steel around them, you can pretty much come and go as you please....

Then we've got the issue of all the sensitive data being sent backwards and forwards, presumably encrypted to some central government data-centre.  Just to get sufficient terminals to enough points at the average city university campus to be meaningful, and provide them with a link to the internet is a hell of an IT project.  And who pays for it, and who is responsible for its operation?

One thing is for sure, putting theses terminals outside the village shop or even your local Aldi is going to be challenging enough.  How will Ms Goggins, in her 80s cope with pulling out her phone everytime she wants to get some milk?

 

 

[Gordon R]

Burnley Dave was clearly an angrier person, but his posts made for easier reading. You could follow what he was saying, he didn't waste words and he never back tracked.

Issues he had, but he was consistent. He didn't post umpteen scenarios, posing endless questions. 

He is sorely missed.

[udderlyoffroad]

I never got experience Burnley Dave.  So I'm not sure if the comparison is flattering or not.

And yes, the last 3 paragraphs of my previous post do appear to be a bit of a stream of consciousness.  Apologies.

But do you know how VPs will operate in practice?  Can you not see there a holes (in what little we do know) in the system, that could drive a coach and horses through?  Or is it just easier to insult me and not think about it?

[udderlyoffroad]

16 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Your arrogant, patronising posts do you no credit. You appear to be a bit out of your depth. 

 

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

but you seem to be a very odd individual.

 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I genuinely do wonder if you understand what you write. 

On second thoughts, don't bother, I've had enough of your insults, you clearly can't make your argument without getting personal.  To the block list with you.

 

[Gordon R]

I see you dish it out, but can't take it. Enough said.

VPs won't work. A bit like Track and Trace - sounds okay to a halfwit, but not to anyone with a brain cell.

[udderlyoffroad]

11 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I see you dish it out, but can't take it. Enough said

I appear to have 'taken it' from you in pretty much every post over this last 24 hours.

Do feel free to show me where I have lowered myself to your level, by getting personal and insulting, afore I click that confirm button....I'll wait. 

11 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

VPs won't work. A bit like Track and Trace - sounds okay to a halfwit, but not to anyone with a brain cell.

See, if you could stop insulting me for 5 mins, you'd realise that (on this) we agree. 

My concern is the collateral damage, especially to our civil liberties, along the way.

Edited July 28, 2021 by udderlyoffroad

[JDog]

Udderlyoffroad

 

I haven’t been fighting with you on any thread. I could never see the point in getting into a discussion or argument with someone so conceited and self opinionated.

[udderlyoffroad]

57 minutes ago, JDog said:

I could never see the point in getting into a discussion or argument with someone so conceited and self opinionated

If you genuinely think that way, why even mention it?   After all, a wise man once said, "Don't ever argue with an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."