National Game Dealers Association statement on lead free ammunition

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, matone said:

Google the video ,its most interesting!!

 

I will try and look later

[8 shot]

Watched Ettiene Vouzelaud video it sound perfect, but still a very very long way form being proven in mass production, but the same problems still exist, quickly degradeable = short selves life 

I guess the question still is, steel in plastic wads or lead shot until there is a REAL solution to degradable plastic. Which is not just a shooting problem it's world wide problem  

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 03/04/2021 at 21:16, 8 shot said:

Conor have you watched "The Big Green Cartridge Test" all of the so called top brands had wad defects after getting wet you don't need to be a genis to work out that our climate is to varied, and having been witness to a barrel burst at a local clay shoot a few years ago though wadding getting stuck up a barrel it makes me shudder to think this could happen when shooting alone, The gentleman was lucky not to lose two fingers. It's safety first, second, and third for me thanks very much, not £££, it's completely irresponsible of any business or organisation to put anybody at risk without many years of testing to prove these products are 110% safe, but i guess you'll come back with using lead is putting people's lives at risk, which has yet to be proven 100%. So we'll beg to differ.

Thanks. You mean this one?

It would be interesting to hear the views of other forum members on their overall view of the tests to compare with your overall view of the tests.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 04/04/2021 at 04:48, Cannon said:

Attitudes are changing because of lies and fear of going against the flow when it comes to anything relating to the environment. These surveys that supposedly highligh the issues caused by lead shot seem to be based on speculation and emotional responses rather than hard evidence. I'd be interested to know Conor just how many members the BASC has lost over the last couple of years? The shooting organisations have previously fought legislative change and anti propaganda, but they have opened a new battlefront with their own members recently.

I don't profess to know a lot about the ins and outs of politics surrounding shooting in this part of the world, but I do know the type of response I would like to see from our shooting organisations when ANY aspect of shooting sports gets threatened. Think Americans defending their second amendment rights kind of response. Burying heads in the sand and waiting to see how things pan out is no use to anyone. 

Thanks. In February last year nine organisations made a statement as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. The shooting community must maintain its place at the forefront of wildlife conservation and protection. Sustainability in our practices is of utmost importance.

Many years ago, wetland restrictions demanded a move away from lead shot and we believe it is necessary to begin a further phased transition. Recently, there have been significant developments in the quality and availability of non-lead shotgun cartridges, and plastic cases can now be recycled. For the first time, biodegradable shot cups for steel shot, with the necessary ballistics to ensure lethality, are available. These welcome advances are continuing at an ever-quickening pace, in response to demand from a changing market. Such advances mean that, over the coming years, a complete transition is achievable.

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.

As regards BASC, to answer your question, there was a small dip in BASC membership following the announcement, and BASC also saw new members who agreed that the voluntary transition would help secure shooting’s future.

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Recently, there have been significant developments in the quality and availability of non-lead shotgun cartridges, and plastic cases can now be recycled. For the first time, biodegradable shot cups for steel shot, with the necessary ballistics to ensure lethality, are available. These welcome advances are continuing at an ever-quickening pace, in response to demand from a changing market. Such advances mean that, over the coming years, a complete transition is achievable.

AH......Sorry i must have listen to the wrong Podcast and misinterpreted the bit in the film were they cut open the unfired cartridges and found wads dissolving, and in there and my opinion unsafe to use, after i believe just 24 hours in water.  My main point from the film being is how will we as shooters experienced or other wise know how wet they have got when shooting all day in heavy torrential rain and how much they have degraded by the next time we get to use them. VERY VERY DANGEROUS in my opinoin.

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC also saw new members who agreed that the voluntary transition would help secure shooting’s future.

as there are no end of highly educated men shooting for a lifetime who more than know their business any new basc member from the above care to explain HOW this rubbish is going to do anything but further damage pray enlighten us 

[udderlyoffroad]

12 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Sorry i must have listen to the wrong Podcast and misinterpreted the bit in the film were they cut open the unfired cartridges and found wads dissolving, and in there and my opinion unsafe to use, after i believe just 24 hours in water

Could you enlighten us where you saw this please?

Would you use normal fibre or plastic carts after they'd spent 24h in water?

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Could you enlighten us where you saw this please?

Would you use normal fibre or plastic carts after they'd spent 24h in water?

YES watch the above Youtube clip 34:00 onwards. I would say the wads are past being in there original state, but you wouldn't know that from looking at the unfired cartridge

And I don't use plastic, exclusively fibre for everything but I would and have used wet cartridges but in the knowledge that by there design they have not changed dramatically. I won't use a fibre wadded cartridge if it's swelled and won't comfortably drop in the chamber. As I've said before I witnessed a barrel burst. Quite frightening. I must say the barrels burst just above the forend and people with alot more knowledge than me assumed a obstruction.

 

[scarecrow243]

the whole lot is rubbish its only one thing that concerns them is making money money money who on earth wants to buy a £2000 gun and have too replace your barrels in 5 years time at what cost most likely have of the price of the gun  no one has ever proofed that lead poisons any bird they even tried feeding mallard corn with lead pellets so see if they got lead poisoned it did not work as i said its nothing but money grabbers

[Cannon]

On 05/04/2021 at 19:28, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks. In February last year nine organisations made a statement as follows:

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. The shooting community must maintain its place at the forefront of wildlife conservation and protection. Sustainability in our practices is of utmost 

 

On 05/04/2021 at 19:28, Conor O'Gorman said:

As regards BASC, to answer your question, there was a small dip in BASC membership following the announcement, and BASC also saw new members who agreed that the voluntary transition would help secure shooting’s future.

As a shooter I consider the clean and humane dispatch of all pest species to be my top priority. Lead has proven to be exceptional when it comes to stopping power, so if it isn't broke why try to change it? The notion that it kills thousands of birds annually due to ingestion is absolutely ludicrous. If there was proper evidence to support these claims I would happily consider my position when it comes to using lead, but the fact remains that there isn't any hard evidence. It's all emotionally driven drivel based on worst case scenarios and assumptions. I also have no part to play in providing game to the 'market'. Everything I shoot is done out of necessity to protect crops, lambs and cattle, so why should I have to discontinue the use of lead because of what are clearly commercial reasons?

I can fully get behind the issue of dealing with plastic wads and cartridge cases. This is because we know for a fact that plastic can and does harm the environment. I only use fibre wads on farmland for obvious reasons, and never leave empty cartridge cases behind. They always come away with me. The problem we have Conor is that plastic and lead seem to be getting paired together as if they are equal in terms of their detrimental affect on the environment. This quite simply isn't the case. You can link as many biased reports on the negative effects of lead as you want, but we simply aren't buying the rhetoric propagated by those whose hidden agendas contradict their mission statements.

These new members who for some reason seem to think that the BASC's  (and other organisations) actions will secure shooting for the future clearly haven't looked into the subject in very much detail. It's textbook capitulation by the shooting orgs. What percentage of members left after the announcement Conor? I'm going to hazard a guess and say that a lot of these former members were also quite intelligent individuals capable of reasoned thought, but it's obvious their objections were never going to be given any consideration. The agenda clearly matters more than the members, and that's why it doesn't wash with us.

[matone]

1 hour ago, Cannon said:

 

As a shooter I consider the clean and humane dispatch of all pest species to be my top priority. Lead has proven to be exceptional when it comes to stopping power, so if it isn't broke why try to change it? The notion that it kills thousands of birds annually due to ingestion is absolutely ludicrous. If there was proper evidence to support these claims I would happily consider my position when it comes to using lead, but the fact remains that there isn't any hard evidence. It's all emotionally driven drivel based on worst case scenarios and assumptions. I also have no part to play in providing game to the 'market'. Everything I shoot is done out of necessity to protect crops, lambs and cattle, so why should I have to discontinue the use of lead because of what are clearly commercial reasons?

I can fully get behind the issue of dealing with plastic wads and cartridge cases. This is because we know for a fact that plastic can and does harm the environment. I only use fibre wads on farmland for obvious reasons, and never leave empty cartridge cases behind. They always come away with me. The problem we have Conor is that plastic and lead seem to be getting paired together as if they are equal in terms of their detrimental affect on the environment. This quite simply isn't the case. You can link as many biased reports on the negative effects of lead as you want, but we simply aren't buying the rhetoric propagated by those whose hidden agendas contradict their mission statements.

These new members who for some reason seem to think that the BASC's  (and other organisations) actions will secure shooting for the future clearly haven't looked into the subject in very much detail. It's textbook capitulation by the shooting orgs. What percentage of members left after the announcement Conor? I'm going to hazard a guess and say that a lot of these former members were also quite intelligent individuals capable of reasoned thought, but it's obvious their objections were never going to be given any consideration. The agenda clearly matters more than the members, and that's why it doesn't wash with us.

An excellent resume!!!  I too wonder how many have and shall leave BASC.

[8 shot]

I did actually renew at the start of last season in the hope the BASC would give there members a say/vote on the way forward. Clearly this isn't happening, even when there is clear evidence the cartridge manufactures are struggling with this and given a very straight honest reason why. I'm switching next time round, I'd rather get stafted for £45 than £82 and urge all other unhappy members to do the same, money in your pocket not there. 

[Terry2016]

On 05/04/2021 at 21:51, 8 shot said:

AH......Sorry i must have listen to the wrong Podcast and misinterpreted the bit in the film were they cut open the unfired cartridges and found wads dissolving, and in there and my opinion unsafe to use, after i believe just 24 hours in water.  My main point from the film being is how will we as shooters experienced or other wise know how wet they have got when shooting all day in heavy torrential rain and how much they have degraded by the next time we get to use them. VERY VERY DANGEROUS in my opinoin.

you wouldn't shoot any cartridge that was submerged for 24 hours,... Rain will not get into the cartridges they are plaswelded .. no issue. even in the test they were far better than they thought they would be.. 

looks like you will be using bismuth ... 

[8 shot]

The only way you would know they were not wet is if it hadn't rained...... As for Plaswelding, clearly don't work as they were wet inside nearly all of them😆 and i guess if you dry them out they grow back to how they were befordhand......NOW there an idea.....  And yep remorgage the house to buy my bismuth, might use a £50 note for a wad.

[scarecrow243]

wet steel rusts so if the shot gets wet and you don't use them for a while the shot can be rusted together now that is very dangerous are the makers going to admit liability are they heck

[Gas seal]

Hi Connor , to sell game including woodpigeon to game dealers for human consumption a license is required. The market will only accept game shot with non toxic or non lead pellets ,or ammunition. It makes sense to issue a new licence with new regulations and any one selling game will understand the situation. This is a commercial decision like it or not. Regarding the test on non lead shotgun ammunition twenty years ago wildflowers stopped using lead and the commercial cartridges were (not very good) . We loaded  none lead cartridges to kill geese and got on with it.we had the die hards or we called them lead heads, but we sat down and got on with it . A lot of the lead heads now load very good (non lead) cartridges. I have tested commercial steel cartridges in 20gauge with plastic wads and bio wads and my own reloaded steel cartridges. When Bioammo produce 20gauge steel cartridges later in the year I will use them, we didn’t have much choice 20 years ago. As for dropping cartridges in a bucket of water for a day to see what happens to them we should look to USA ( myth busters) way ahead of us in anything to do with firearms. Lead and plastic wads are toxic to wildlife and the environment any school kids can tell us this ,again look to the USA  for data .if shooters don’t want to use non lead cartridges it’s up to them but they have a lot more choice of non lead cartridges that we had.  As for the lethality of steel cartridges look to the USA Tom Roster shotgun cartridge expert .As for blaming BASC well I suppose some one has to be blamed . It’s always someone else’s fault.

[clangerman]

10 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

.As for blaming BASC well I suppose some one has to be blamed . It’s always someone else’s fault.

did basc and co call for a lead ban? YES! when its your fault you claim YOUR shame! 

[8 shot]

27 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Connor , to sell game including woodpigeon to game dealers for human consumption a license is required. The market will only accept game shot with non toxic or non lead pellets ,or ammunition. It makes sense to issue a new licence with new regulations and any one selling game will understand the situation. This is a commercial decision like it or not. Regarding the test on non lead shotgun ammunition twenty years ago wildflowers stopped using lead and the commercial cartridges were (not very good) . We loaded  none lead cartridges to kill geese and got on with it.we had the die hards or we called them lead heads, but we sat down and got on with it . A lot of the lead heads now load very good (non lead) cartridges. I have tested commercial steel cartridges in 20gauge with plastic wads and bio wads and my own reloaded steel cartridges. When Bioammo produce 20gauge steel cartridges later in the year I will use them, we didn’t have much choice 20 years ago. As for dropping cartridges in a bucket of water for a day to see what happens to them we should look to USA ( myth busters) way ahead of us in anything to do with firearms. Lead and plastic wads are toxic to wildlife and the environment any school kids can tell us this ,again look to the USA  for data .if shooters don’t want to use non lead cartridges it’s up to them but they have a lot more choice of non lead cartridges that we had.  As for the lethality of steel cartridges look to the USA Tom Roster shotgun cartridge expert .As for blaming BASC well I suppose some one has to be blamed . It’s always someone else’s fault.

You turn up shooting pigeon on our farm or any other around us and leave plastic wads lying around you'd been shown the gate pretty sharpish. We and our neighbouring farmer grow high quality hay and haylage for racehorse feed and can not risk plastic wads in the fodder. Simple !

[Gas seal]

Hi Connor I tested Eley 20gauge bio steel cartridges. I found them good enough for me to use, l also made cardboard wads for my 28gauge to use with steel and TSS shot. I have fired over two hundred shots with steel 15grams to test them  ,15grams of steel is the same as I would load up with a plastic wad. They patterned and killed pigeons just the same. I will enclose a photo of one containing 15grams of steel 2.6mm and one containing 18grams of TSS. The photos are before l split the wads. As this topic is about the market place would you know if an amended licence to sell to game dealers is required.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Connor I tested Eley 20gauge bio steel cartridges. I found them good enough for me to use, l also made cardboard wads for my 28gauge to use with steel and TSS shot. I have fired over two hundred shots with steel 15grams to test them  ,15grams of steel is the same as I would load up with a plastic wad. They patterned and killed pigeons just the same. I will enclose a photo of one containing 15grams of steel 2.6mm and one containing 18grams of TSS. The photos are before l split the wads. As this topic is about the market place would you know if an amended licence to sell to game dealers is required.

Interesting. Was this through ordinary nitro proofed guns or just steel shot proofed guns? 

[Gas seal]

Hi 8shot as a farmer you know a hay crop is expensive and often overlooked as just a grass field. I never shoot pigeons over growing hay crops as they do no damage. If I did in my area l would be put in the back of a police car at the gate. I understand plastic and hay don’t mix. If you use lead pellets on your farm no one can stop you but if you shoot game you wouldn’t be allowed to sell it to a game dealer. I use steel pellets and my pigeons go to animal feed. I now use bio wads in commercial cartridges or my own loaded cartridges. 

[Gas seal]

Hi Scully the guns are not steel proof. I use steel proof chokes, improved modified for steel with plastic wads and cylinder chokes for steel with cardboard wads. I use cylinder chokes for TSS with cardboard wads. The TSS shot needs a lot of packing. 

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Scully the guns are not steel proof. I use steel proof chokes, improved modified for steel with plastic wads and cylinder chokes for steel with cardboard wads. I use cylinder chokes for TSS with cardboard wads. The TSS shot needs a lot of packing. 

Thanks. 👍

[8 shot]

Hi Gas seal, yes hay is at the mercy of many thing weather etc. so adding something that is avoidable doesn't make alot of sense, your right we don't shoot pigeons over the grass the risk is when the grass is in the arable rotation. The main problem is we have a small friends and family shoot amalgamating 3 farms shooting anything from 20 to very rarely 100 birds may be three or four times a season and has being running for 35+ years. No gamebirds sold all used for the shoot dinners and taken home by guns, beaters and friends. As you have noticed, my angst with all this nonsense is this will have to stop because of this nonsence. We do have, as mentioned before large numbers of Buzzards, Red Kites, various Owls and English Partridge (not released and shot) and many many small birds on the shoot.Two of the three farms plant wild bird cover and game cover and leave over wintered stubble (not subsidised by the way all our own expense), all for our shoot. The shoot will stop when no suitable alternative is found to fibre wads. Yes i hear all this you can shoot steel through full choke etc. but this is not in line with the various experts Iv'e spoken to personally. The real shame is the BASC etc. have probably put the wildbird covers etc.on many many shoot like ours at risk because of there blanket lead ban. Some small fun shoots will just not bother shooting. It seems to be commercial shoot driven, which I do go on by the way. Personally I think the conservation side of shooting will suffer massively iline with this ban with the likes of our shoot going and you can forget the subsided wildbird crops they are just not viable at present as a stand alone option. There are, I think many ways of doing the human consumption thing which I do think Is a pretty lame excuse. As we manage the risk of plastic in the hay, grown ups surely can manage the risk of what's in there game. Options seems the way forward for me. But possibly now to late. The BASC etc. don't seem capable discussion until it's to late.

[harkom]

If non-toxic( ie non lead) shot is so effective  etc, etc ...can someone please explain to me why Norway, and some other have rescinded the lead shot/bullet ban?