New guns - not steel proofed?

[Old farrier]

7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

So before it was proofed for superior steel it was dangeorus, but afterwards it was perfectly safe and fine... except it was the same gun before and after ... and they did nothing to the gun's construction to make it pass the test...

 

Could have saved a lot of money if you'd just used it as it was... 

nothing except taking out the tighter fixed choke and fitting multi chokes 

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Windswept said:

I'm aware of the arguments about what an owner can put through their gun at their own risk and didn't want to cover that old ground again.

What surprised me was the fact that is still seems not all new guns sold are guaranteed to handle all the steel cartridges in the UK. I suppose I can see why a clay gun doesn't need to handle large shot, I just assumed all new guns would be able to pass the higher proof pressures.

This is the point I’m trying to make, they CAN pass the higher proof pressures. 

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

This is the point I’m trying to make, they CAN pass the higher proof pressures. 

I’m sure they can but it would be interesting to know how many fail 

anyone know if they publish failure figures at the proof houses?

[Scully]

28 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m sure they can but it would be interesting to know how many fail 

anyone know if they publish failure figures at the proof houses?

Why would they fail? Guns submitted for steel shot proofing are made in exactly the same manner as those submitted for nitro aren’t they? Unless those stamped ‘superior’ steel means others are made from ‘inferior’ steel? 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

Why would they fail? Guns submitted for steel shot proofing are made in exactly the same manner as those submitted for nitro aren’t they? Unless those stamped ‘superior’ steel means others are made from ‘inferior’ steel? 🤷‍♂️

Some must fail or they wouldn’t have made the proof rules 

that’ll be proof for lead or steel 

i don’t know what level or standards the foreign guns are made to 

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Some must fail or they wouldn’t have made the proof rules 

that’ll be proof for lead or steel 

i don’t know what level or standards the foreign guns are made to 

Seriously? Foreign guns coming into the UK are made to the same standards of non foreign guns. Think about it.  The vast vast majority of guns owned and used in the UK, are foreign made. 
So the choices are, have your nitro proofed guns proved for HP steel, or don’t, and restrict your shooting within the capabilities of standard steel. I have no idea as to the latters capabilities as I’ve only ever shot HP. 
Or don’t do either of those, which will render your guns obsolete, especially when lead is banned for trap shooting, as logic dictates it must be if it’s as bad for the environment as it’s claimed, then it’s only a matter of time ‘til it’s banned. 
This equally applies to rifles. It has to. 
Or you could just get on with it and shoot HP steel through your nitro proofed guns. As has been proved, they’re capable of  reproofing for steel, so they must be capable of using it. 🤷‍♂️

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

anyone know if they publish failure figures at the proof houses?

Going to take a wild stab in the dark here and suggest that the proof houses, like most testing/quality labs have a commercial confidentiality clause in their T&Cs, so no, you won't get data about failures.  That's between the proof house and their customers (manufacturers and RFDs).

 

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Some must fail or they wouldn’t have made the proof rules 

I'd be very surprised if any new, mass-produced gun failed proof. The design will have been tested to within an inch of its life at the manufacturers in-house facilities before being productionised.

What fails is older guns re-submitted for proof with thin barrels.

I have an old-ish Benelli semi lacking a fleur-de-lys; but I'm just going to crack on and use HP steel if/when I need to.  Its price reflected the lack of HP Steel proof, but there's no doubt in my mind it would be fine, I just don't see the need to spend the money.  I don't plan on selling it.  That said, I wouldn't be buying a new gun without a HP Steel proof.  But other than fixed choke stuff (and how many of those are sold new, truly?), are there really any other examples?  Doubt it.

As for the sticker on the new Miroku, we are sure that isn't a US market thing?

 

[Guest cookoff013]

Yidliz actually states there guns have been subjected to 1550bar proof tests, that vastly superior to the 1370 bar HP steel, this "HP 1370" bar test is to fire HP 1050bar cartridges for the lifetime of the firearm.
i`m not sure if its been fired with steel or lead, but it has been subjected to huge pressure, 

dont forget you can get HP cartridges in lead, steel, treacle. infact HP is High performance where the average pressure is below 1050bar.

i`m sure they are sent to the states as is and they shoot a hell of alot of steel.

HP is pressure rating. 

[8 shot]

Just out of interest has anyone watch Fieldtesters bursting barrels. Not sure what conclusions to make of it 

[Gerry78]

23 hours ago, Scully said:

Fair enough, although I can’t recall saying you need HP steel for birds over 45yds. 

Agree 100 percent Scully I’ve stated before have been using a Aya no3 magnum made 1979 for Wildfowling pigeons odd pheasant driven day for years chokes 1/4 1/2 Using standard steel shot On wildfowl with no problems I also have put high velocity steel on the marsh and in land lough with no problems to the Gun There’s too much bull**** on steel damaging barrels On a side note my friend uses a MK38 trap gun in the duck hide choked 3/4 Full using steel WITH NO PROBLEMS 

[Windswept]

As mentioned a couple of times, I'm not asking if an old gun can handle steel, I have a couple guns that are not steel proofed that I would happily use for HP steel.

I was asking why some new guns aren't steel proofed. If I bought a new shotgun that wasn't steel proofed I'd not put HP steel through it, regardless of whether it would cope with it, whilst it was in warranty.

It does seem that most new guns are proofed for “steel shot” so not something that's likely to be a concern

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

As mentioned a couple of times, I'm not asking if an old gun can handle steel, I have a couple guns that are not steel proofed that I would happily use for HP steel.

I was asking why some new guns aren't steel proofed. If I bought a new shotgun that wasn't steel proofed I'd not put HP steel through it, regardless of whether it would cope with it, whilst it was in warranty.

It does seem that most new guns are proofed for “steel shot” so not something that's likely to be a concern

My apologies if you thought I was getting at you I’m not Since Steel has been a legal requirement to use on waterfowl here in the UK There has been a lot of rubbish spouted out in the shooting community about steel damage to guns or lack of killing power etc I’ve heard it all from dealers right through to shooting organisations at Game fairs etc If a full lead ban comes to fieldsports which I think it will I will not be worried one bit 

[snow white]

Endfieldspares 

that is dead true how many people eat game in this country I can’t give it away and would they pay for it at supermarkets when a chicken is lot more cheaper it’s a load of bxxxxlks 

[TRINITY]

18 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

My apologies if you thought I was getting at you I’m not Since Steel has been a legal requirement to use on waterfowl here in the UK There has been a lot of rubbish spouted out in the shooting community about steel damage to guns or lack of killing power etc I’ve heard it all from dealers right through to shooting organisations at Game fairs etc If a full lead ban comes to fieldsports which I think it will I will not be worried one bit 

I agree with that point but if I were to buy a new gun I would insist on it being steel proof.  This would be for one simple reason. I strongly suspect if lead gets a ban then any non steel proof gun will rapidly fall in value. I suspect many dealers would use this excuse to offer you sweet FA as trade in value.

[benbobailey]

On 26/05/2021 at 10:37, udderlyoffroad said:

Going to take a wild stab in the dark here and suggest that the proof houses, like most testing/quality labs have a commercial confidentiality clause in their T&Cs, so no, you won't get data about failures.  That's between the proof house and their customers (manufacturers and RFDs).

 

I'd be very surprised if any new, mass-produced gun failed proof. The design will have been tested to within an inch of its life at the manufacturers in-house facilities before being productionised.

What fails is older guns re-submitted for proof with thin barrels.

I have an old-ish Benelli semi lacking a fleur-de-lys; but I'm just going to crack on and use HP steel if/when I need to.  Its price reflected the lack of HP Steel proof, but there's no doubt in my mind it would be fine, I just don't see the need to spend the money.  I don't plan on selling it.  That said, I wouldn't be buying a new gun without a HP Steel proof.  But other than fixed choke stuff (and how many of those are sold new, truly?), are there really any other examples?  Doubt it.

As for the sticker on the new Miroku, we are sure that isn't a US market thing?

 

 100 % UK.The photo of the gun with lead only sticker is for sale at my local gunshop, in the UK. I have personally seen another miroku with the yellow warning sticker, for sale at a different UK gunshop. Regards

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, benbobailey said:

As for the sticker on the new Miroku, we are sure that isn't a US market thing?

The stickers on the “New” Miroku’s are put on fixed choke models ie. MK 60 and some MK38 etc. denoting one or both barrels have a choke tighter than half. I’ve got two. 

[Gerry78]

16 hours ago, TRINITY said:

I agree with that point but if I were to buy a new gun I would insist on it being steel proof.  This would be for one simple reason. I strongly suspect if lead gets a ban then any non steel proof gun will rapidly fall in value. I suspect many dealers would use this excuse to offer you sweet FA as trade in value.

You make a great point but on the flip side which we all suspect that there will be a lead ban You will be able to buy good non steel proof guns for great value As I said I’d be happy using steel in any nitro proofed gun As I don’t think there’s any problem using steel in my old gun 👍👍👍

I do think if lead ban comes in people with Damascus barrels might have a problem with steel But I could be wrong as I have never had a gun with Damascus barrels I’m sure some of the guys on forum could advise 

[Saltings]

On 27/05/2021 at 00:00, Gerry78 said:

My apologies if you thought I was getting at you I’m not Since Steel has been a legal requirement to use on waterfowl here in the UK There has been a lot of rubbish spouted out in the shooting community about steel damage to guns or lack of killing power etc I’ve heard it all from dealers right through to shooting organisations at Game fairs etc If a full lead ban comes to fieldsports which I think it will I will not be worried one bit 

if im correct gun manufacturer's who supplied into the usa from the early to mid seventy's onwards were steel proofed stamped or not     as home grown usa guns were built to handle steel then the chamber lengths went to 3.5"         the uk has a proof house others dont   inc Ireland            i have a berretta extrema 1  chrome lined barrels scored to hell from 32g heavy shot shop bought weld splatter  wrong wads as claybusting wads i have some i will never use or sell  unless i decant and reload in the right wads         another extrema one and two other 3.5"  my kids use perfect bores     home load  only        steel    tungsten matrix   heavy shot    the right wads     early shop bought used clay busting wads  after a few law suits      use thicker wads today      i have been with john wiseman  many many years ago he had no end of english guns   ring  bulges      barrels tore up     forcing cones destroyed    as they were light weight English game guns thinner barrels             historic guns    not suitable   but nice shot  and bismuth  is available   affordable  ????         steel shot slows down at 100fps    lead 60fps    from memory    so  at 40yrds you have to send the same charge in steel faster    for the same lead and hitting power     steel shot argument in food is bull ****       if retained in meat   dentist bill to supplier  hell       i have eaten game all my life   we have water through lead pipes        we have animals graze on shooting grounds   crops grown and harvested  no elevated lead levels        lead comes from the ground     and on that not much lead in shot and a lot of junk metal these days           or do we need lead for all those new electric cars as lead can be recycled without loss endlessly 

[Guest cookoff013]

Proofing costs money.

probably cost saving.

[8 shot]

The proofing I think is cheap, delivery is the expensive bit, providing it doesn’t fail