30-6 Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 As I have said many times before I am not an out and out "foxer", and many on here are very experienced compared to me, so am looking for an answer. Seems to be more foxes around this year, and one farmer has asked me to thin them out for him. Had a few, dropping on the spot with the typical engine room shot, but the last one left me questioning my shot placement. An adult dog fox came into the call and was shot at about 80 yds. When hit it jumped in the air and disappeared into a bank of ferns that it was running alongside. Had a look where I expected it to be but could not see it. I left after marking a blood spot coming back with a thumbstick to help move the ferns around and found it a couple of yds from where I had been looking. The large exit wound from a .223 40g v max convinced me it had expired quickly. I had aimed just behind the front leg, but the angle of the shot had the bullet travelling diagonally rearwards, rather than straight through the ribcage. Would it have been a better shot aim point to have come to the front of the front leg ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free range Rob Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 In short, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjaferret Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 Yes at that distance why not a nut shot ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free range Rob Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 6 minutes ago, ninjaferret said: Yes at that distance why not a nut shot ? If he isn’t that experienced or confident as he says I would not be advising nutting them, boiler room may not be bang flop every time but it’s more guaranteed to drop them and build the confidence, that’s what you need to be nutting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted July 26, 2021 Report Share Posted July 26, 2021 I've never shot a fox in my life, so this is a question as much as anything. Why not a high shoulder shot with a centrefire? I've never seen any animal get up from a shoulder shot and there is good margin of error. It takes out one if not two shoulders, one if not two lungs and the spinal cord. I understand shooting behind the front leg on deer for meat preservation, but hopefully this isn't a consideration for foxes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 27, 2021 Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 I shoot foxes with 223 also, but use a 55gr bullet. In short, if you hit anywhere vital on a fox with that bullet and velocity, it is dead. I've hit them at high shoulder, and had the entire front of the fox torn up by the bullet. Low shoulder, similar. Spine, it nearly splits them in two. Towards the back, the round took a leg clean off. I'm not fond of headshots on foxes, it's a bit too small and mobile on the body, and I've no desire to shoot half it's jaw off and leave it to suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted July 27, 2021 Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 Sometimes it takes them a few seconds to realise they're dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjaferret Posted July 27, 2021 Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 10 hours ago, Free range Rob said: If he isn’t that experienced or confident as he says I would not be advising nutting them, boiler room may not be bang flop every time but it’s more guaranteed to drop them and build the confidence, that’s what you need to be nutting them. He's obviously scoped his rifle in to a close group at probably 100yds if he's confident at doing that why not a nut shot at 80 yds ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30-6 Posted July 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 Cheers for replies, I suppose I knew the answer but just wanted other views. Bit more info. Yes zeroed at 100 yes, using 40g as I want to use them up and move on to 55g, both shoot ok in my 1 in 10 twist Sauer. Bought a selection when I got the rifle but intend to use 55g as to choice. Every fox I've had has been bib or ribs, and everyone has just dropped, from 40 yds to 130 yds. My concern was if I had hit shoulder would it have been a kill shot or just stopped it, being a .223 and v max. Edit to add - does a .223 using v max have the capabilities to take on a shoulder shot or would it depend on range and bullet weight ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 27, 2021 Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 5 hours ago, 30-6 said: Every fox I've had has been bib or ribs, and everyone has just dropped, from 40 yds to 130 yds. My concern was if I had hit shoulder would it have been a kill shot or just stopped it, being a .223 and v max. Edit to add - does a .223 using v max have the capabilities to take on a shoulder shot or would it depend on range and bullet weight ? Even if the shoulder bone did stop the bullet (and I just don't see that happening at 223 velocities unless you're getting out to half a mile or so), the hydrostatic shock would be devastating. I reckon that'd be the same whether 40 or 55 gr Vmax My longest fox ever is 290m with the 223. Zero wind, it was sitting face on, bib shot, holdover aim point was between the ears (I do a fair bit of range time, so know my hold at 300m, so had absolute confidence in the holdover point). It dropped on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseplant Posted July 27, 2021 Report Share Posted July 27, 2021 7 hours ago, robbiep said: Even if the shoulder bone did stop the bullet (and I just don't see that happening at 223 velocities unless you're getting out to half a mile or so), the hydrostatic shock would be devastating. I reckon that'd be the same whether 40 or 55 gr Vmax Totally agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted July 28, 2021 Report Share Posted July 28, 2021 Of course a .223 v max will penetrate a fox’s shoulder, at any range you are likely to shoot it. On rib shot runners: calibre doesn’t matter. I have had a fox run with a clean rib shot with a .308 leaving a 4 inch exit hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumble Posted July 29, 2021 Report Share Posted July 29, 2021 On 28/07/2021 at 07:35, London Best said: Of course a .223 v max will penetrate a fox’s shoulder, at any range you are likely to shoot it. On rib shot runners: calibre doesn’t matter. I have had a fox run with a clean rib shot with a .308 leaving a 4 inch exit hole. I’ve had the same; both shoulders taken out with a .308 when stalking, engine room turned to mush and it still somehow made it 20yds into cover. God knows how as it nearly fell apart when I picked it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accuspell Posted January 1, 2022 Report Share Posted January 1, 2022 For your aim point, on anything. Imagine shooting an arrow at the target, the line the arrow would have to take to hit the vitals. Where the arrow enters is where you want the bullet to enter. Shooting up and down angles the same idea holds true because shooting up your exit will be high, so you need to HIT a little low, the reverse is true. The framentation of a Vmax will carve massive trauma beyond the bullet path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 Most of my foxes are .22 lr head shots , and within 50 yards , and off a bipod ( wherever possible) . I tend to shoot most of them when out rabbiting in the early morning. One fox that sticks in my mind , was during an early morning stalk(hoping for a muntie) a few years ago . I was mooching along with my .243 howa , when a fox burst through the hedge at around 80 yards . It was having a mad tussle with a squirrel and hadn't even noticed me standing there , I took a standing boiler room shot , and had a clean miss(I thought) , the fox still hadn't noticed me or reacted in any way , so I dropped to one knee , and took another boiler room shot . It was another clean miss(I thought) , so I empty the gun and start giving myself a hard time , as I think that I must have been clumsy and given the scope a knock and not realised . I carried on watching the fox and squirrel for another few seconds , when the fox looked directly at me , then bolted into the open field . I watched the totally unscathed fox run for around 100 yards or so , then it just piled into the ground without a twitch . I walked over to the fox , and when I looked it over , it had an exit wound that I could fit my fist into , and it's heart and lungs were gone , it was just filled with soup. Had the fox jumped into the hedge , or made it over the brow of the field , I wouldn't have even bothered looking for it , as I was sure that I'd had two complete misses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mel b3 said: Most of my foxes are .22 lr head shots , and within 50 yards , and off a bipod ( wherever possible) . I tend to shoot most of them when out rabbiting in the early morning. One fox that sticks in my mind , was during an early morning stalk(hoping for a muntie) a few years ago . I was mooching along with my .243 howa , when a fox burst through the hedge at around 80 yards . It was having a mad tussle with a squirrel and hadn't even noticed me standing there , I took a standing boiler room shot , and had a clean miss(I thought) , the fox still hadn't noticed me or reacted in any way , so I dropped to one knee , and took another boiler room shot . It was another clean miss(I thought) , so I empty the gun and start giving myself a hard time , as I think that I must have been clumsy and given the scope a knock and not realised . I carried on watching the fox and squirrel for another few seconds , when the fox looked directly at me , then bolted into the open field . I watched the totally unscathed fox run for around 100 yards or so , then it just piled into the ground without a twitch . I walked over to the fox , and when I looked it over , it had an exit wound that I could fit my fist into , and it's heart and lungs were gone , it was just filled with soup. Had the fox jumped into the hedge , or made it over the brow of the field , I wouldn't have even bothered looking for it , as I was sure that I'd had two complete misses. Amazing! I think there’s quite a bit of truth in what Walshie said, sometimes it takes them a while to realise they’re dead. I can’t ever recall a fox not dropping stone dead following a shot from my .243, and only ever took body mass shots. I was never more than 100 yds away and more often than not much closer. Adrenalin via shock must play a part, but it’s not something I know much about. 🤷♂️ I have sometimes needed a second shot when using a shotgun on foxes however. To the OP, I once had a chart which showed animals ( in my case it was a Canada Moose! ) through 360 degrees, and where you needed to place that shot to get to the heart from any angle. I’ve no idea where it is now, but I’m sure you could find one on a hunting site online. Edited January 5, 2022 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Scully said: Amazing! I think there’s quite a bit of truth in what Walshie said, sometimes it takes them a while to realise they’re dead. I can’t ever recall a fox not dropping stone dead following a shot from my .243, and only ever took body mass shots. I was never more than 100 yds away and more often than not much closer. Adrenalin via shock must play a part, but it’s not something I know much about. 🤷♂️ To the OP, I once had a chart which showed animals ( in my case it was a Canada Moose! ) through 360 degrees, and where you needed to place that shot to get to the heart from any angle. I’ve no idea where it is now, but I’m sure you could find one on a hunting site online. I can only assume that the fox was running on adrenaline due to its scrap with the squirrel . It didn't even react to the sound of the gun. I saw a similar chart many many ago . And time permitting, I still visualise the internal organs of any animal before I take a shot . It's allowed me to take quite a few awkward shots over the years , from fallow deer from a highseat , to feral pigeons high up in a barn/factory roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, mel b3 said: I can only assume that the fox was running on adrenaline due to its scrap with the squirrel . It didn't even react to the sound of the gun. I saw a similar chart many many ago . And time permitting, I still visualise the internal organs of any animal before I take a shot . It's allowed me to take quite a few awkward shots over the years , from fallow deer from a highseat , to feral pigeons high up in a barn/factory roof. Yes. That’s what I used the chart for also, just to visualise a straight line through any part of the animal to get to its heart, missing bone enroute of course. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 52 minutes ago, Scully said: Yes. That’s what I used the chart for also, just to visualise a straight line through any part of the animal to get to its heart, missing bone enroute of course. 👍 I think that basic knowledge has helped me quite a bit over the years , probably most of all with feral pigeon clearance jobs (when you really want a pile of bodies) , as I really don't do pigeon head shots (that'll upset a few). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, mel b3 said: I think that basic knowledge has helped me quite a bit over the years , probably most of all with feral pigeon clearance jobs (when you really want a pile of bodies) , as I really don't do pigeon head shots (that'll upset a few). No, I’m not one for pigeon head shots either; body mass all the way, and you need to know where to aim as all those feathers make it a much bigger target than it actually is! Each to their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30-6 Posted January 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2022 Yes I've googled similar charts, I was a little surprised how low the fox heart actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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