Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

Deffo not false flag - he loved that bridge 😆

It’s looking like a very modern missile strike but being covered as bomb on the fuel section of the cargo train or something launched from a boat drone. 

My 2p, NATO gave the Ukranians the latest kit to publicly wallop Putin’s favourite bridge on his birthday, to weaken him in Russia. If you’re the hard man and winning you get forgiven for anything in Russia, and Putin’s image of master tactician and in charge of the hardest army, well….. he’s going to need a new PR agency 

Fair enough , but the video I saw , shows what appears to be a truck exploding , and a huge amount of shrapnel hitting the train tankers, it needed a huge blast force to drop the road bridge.

The aspect of NATO giving Ukraine a missile capable of doing that kind of damage, would be a serious escalation, missiles can be tracked, and leave evidence, Im discounting that one .

As far as PR , this plays straight into Putins hands ,'they' are attacking Russia directly, and need 'punishing' is how it will be spun.

[12gauge82]

25 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

OK , perhaps a poor choice of words, but what I said after that gives it context.
Does Ukraine want Russia to use a nuke , or two ?
Then further measures could be taken against them ?

If Ukraine DOESNT want nukes used on itself, why would it attack a piece of infrastructure that might provoke this ?

Ill clarify , Putin has said all options are on the table, especially if Russian infrastructure is attacked, then all of a sudden , 2 pieces of important Russian infrastructure are attacked.
Can you see what Im saying ?
Or, is it the Russians hitting their own stuff , so they can somehow justify using nukes?
And if this is the case , why would bods at the Ukrainian defence ministry start gloating over it , insinuating that theyve done it ?

I get what your saying and your probably right, Ukraine can kill two birds with one stone, cut off Russian supply lines and possibly pull nato into the conflict if Russia carries out their threat. 

In the scheme of things, can anyone blame Ukraine for doing so? 

[Yellow Bear]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

As far as PR , this plays straight into Putins hands ,'they' are attacking Russia directly, and need 'punishing' is how it will be spun.

As good a reason as I can think of for Russia to have doe it themselves.

[Mungler]

Putin needs that bridge to supply troops (now cut off) and it’s a favourite thing of his. If they were going to false flag we’d get the full on baby food factory treatment. 

Be interesting to see how Russian media deal with this; either ‘how embarrassing, how did that happen and who do we blame?’ [ie criticism of Putin posed as questions] or ‘let’s get nuking’. 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

In the scheme of things, can anyone blame Ukraine for doing so? 

I would imagine Ukraine would be most eager to involve as many countries as possible in the conflict, on their side.
But this is the crux of the matter.
What level of involvement, and whats in it for them ?
When I talk about what level , arms sales/gifts are an integral part of trade, alls fair ect, but if you are deliberately trying to damage or topple the other parties enemy , is that not a type of proxy war?
The west have been very careful what weapons they let Ukraine have , the ability to strike Russian soil using western gear , has so far been off the table.
Russia has vast reserves of oil and gas , and (was) a major arms exporter, this put it in direct conflict with US domination of those markets. THIS conflict aids the US interests massively, this is whats in it for them.
Europe ? Well apart from some arms sales , we have seen energy costs spiral out of control, and the promise of power cuts this winter, a column of refugees , recession , and plenty more heartache to come.
Defence budgets increased, despite the fact the Russian army has been proved to be a lame duck.
Not quite the windfall the US has got is it ?
Yet here we are, with a possible nuclear attack looking very likely once Russia decides to start pointing fingers.

So in conclusion, no I dont blame Ukraine for fighting back any way it can.
But I question the wisdom and level of our involvement , knowing full well there is absolutely nothing in it for us except fuel price misery and debt to a country that has no means to pay it back, probably ever.
Tack on the threat of WW3 , or at the very least a destabilised  world security situation ,and its looking like a pretty poor investment.
 

2 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

As good a reason as I can think of for Russia to have doe it themselves.

Exactly , hence my quandary.

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Putin needs that bridge to supply troops (now cut off) and it’s a favourite thing of his. If they were going to false flag we’d get the full on baby food factory treatment. 

Be interesting to see how Russian media deal with this; either ‘how embarrassing, how did that happen and who do we blame?’ [ie criticism of Putin posed as questions] or ‘let’s get nuking’. 

They still have a land corridor through Ukraine, so the way its touted as the only way to supply the troops in Kherson, is somewhat innacurate, plus I see the bridge is still serviceable anyway.
The attack is largely symbolic really , an affront to Russia ?

Russian media from what I can see, are playing it as a Ukrainian terrorist attack, the sort of language that gets Russkies all antagonistic , and spoiling for revenge.
Like I say , if Ukraines done it , it wasnt a great idea IMHO.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Putin needs that bridge to supply troops (now cut off) and it’s a favourite thing of his. If they were going to false flag we’d get the full on baby food factory treatment. 

Be interesting to see how Russian media deal with this; either ‘how embarrassing, how did that happen and who do we blame?’ [ie criticism of Putin posed as questions] or ‘let’s get nuking’. 

How would you know , Russia news is censored in the West.

If the Russians smash every bridge across the dniper then that cuts the country in half. Will certainly slow down the repair off the tanks in Poland.

[Mungler]

59 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

How would you know , Russia news is censored in the West.

If the Russians smash every bridge across the dniper then that cuts the country in half. Will certainly slow down the repair off the tanks in Poland.

No idea what you’re on about.

[oowee]

Explosion starts from below the bridge. 

[welsh1]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

OK , perhaps a poor choice of words, but what I said after that gives it context.
Does Ukraine want Russia to use a nuke , or two ?
Then further measures could be taken against them ?

If Ukraine DOESNT want nukes used on itself, why would it attack a piece of infrastructure that might provoke this ?

Ill clarify , Putin has said all options are on the table, especially if Russian infrastructure is attacked, then all of a sudden , 2 pieces of important Russian infrastructure are attacked.
Can you see what Im saying ?
Or, is it the Russians hitting their own stuff , so they can somehow justify using nukes?
And if this is the case , why would bods at the Ukrainian defence ministry start gloating over it , insinuating that theyve done it ?

It has attacked a piece of infrastructure because russia invaded it's country slaughtering it people.

Do you expect ukraine to just sit back just because the invader is threatening you with nukes, he has already decimated your country by illegally invading it.

Should everyone just back down and let putin do exactly what he wants,because that is appeasement to a deranged lunatic who invaded and slaughtered another countries people. people.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

It has attacked a piece of infrastructure because russia invaded it's country slaughtering it people.

Do you expect ukraine to just sit back just because the invader is threatening you with nukes, he has already decimated your country by illegally invading it.

Should everyone just back down and let putin do exactly what he wants,because that is appeasement to a deranged lunatic who invaded and slaughtered another countries people. people.

Here here.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Should everyone just back down and let putin do exactly what he wants,because that is appeasement to a deranged lunatic who invaded and slaughtered another countries people. people.

I'm aware of what he's done, and it's hardly like anyone's 'letting' him do what he wants, he has virtually every NATO country supplying Ukraine with weapons and aid. 

So while Russia is at this time, losing the war, why would you give them an excuse to up the ante? 

When the rest of Ukraine is a radioactive wasteland, at least they can say they didn't appease him? 

[welsh1]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'm aware of what he's done, and it's hardly like anyone's 'letting' him do what he wants, he has virtually every NATO country supplying Ukraine with weapons and aid. 

So while Russia is at this time, losing the war, why would you give them an excuse to up the ante? 

When the rest of Ukraine is a radioactive wasteland, at least they can say they didn't appease him? 

So do you wnat them to stop while they kick an invader out of their country,? an illegal invader who has killed and maimed their people.

Tell you what lets all start a petition to stop ukraine defending and repelling an illegal invasion.

I cannot belive that you think everyone should stop because putin might get upset, here's a hint to putin, if you don't want stuff like this to happen don't invade another country.

 

[Mungler]

It’s the ‘he’s got nukes so we better give him what he wants approach’.

If that was any sort of a sensible idea we’d all be speaking with heavy North Korean accents.

 

[ditchman]

i think we are going to wake up one morning soon....with the headlines  "Putin arrested ..exercuted"

what comes after is what we should be worrying about.......

if its the russian mafia we will be fine as they like to trade and make money

if its hardliners from the 60's and 70's ....we need to worry

if it is some humanitarian locked up in prison...he will be released and die shortly after...

[Rewulf]

10 hours ago, welsh1 said:

cannot belive that you think everyone should stop because putin might get upset, here's a hint to putin, if you don't want stuff like this to happen don't invade another country

 

10 hours ago, Mungler said:

It’s the ‘he’s got nukes so we better give him what he wants approach

You've both said he's a mad, deranged murdering tyrant! 

But let's give him an excuse to be a worse one yeah? 

Save your venom for when/if he does do it. 

[Dave-G]

Memo to Putin: Nuke's only protect against non nuke equipped/supported nations. 

 

[mchughcb]

10 hours ago, ditchman said:

i think we are going to wake up one morning soon....with the headlines  "Putin arrested ..exercuted"

what comes after is what we should be worrying about.......

if its the russian mafia we will be fine as they like to trade and make money

if its hardliners from the 60's and 70's ....we need to worry

if it is some humanitarian locked up in prison...he will be released and die shortly after...

I heard the same rubbish when I was in Venezuela with Chavez. The only people changing out their regimes are the west. One by one they are getting booted out. Yet Putin has been in control for 22 years.

The west couldn't even boot out their corrupt health bureaucrats who literally sent their economies bankrupt.

[Mungler]

21 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I heard the same rubbish when I was in Venezuela with Chavez. The only people changing out their regimes are the west. One by one they are getting booted out. Yet Putin has been in control for 22 years.

The west couldn't even boot out their corrupt health bureaucrats who literally sent their economies bankrupt.

But Putin has for the first time overreached, got it wrong and started something he can’t win on any rational level.

We’ll see. 

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

You've both said he's a mad, deranged murdering tyrant! 

But let's give him an excuse to be a worse one yeah? 

Save your venom for when/if he does do it. 

Forget the nukes and think again. 

And as for ‘give him an excuse’ - forget that too, he invaded a non threatening neighbour and didn’t need a reason. 

This is going to be a non nuclear nasty drawn out affair which Russian can’t win now. 

We all get to watch. Feel free to hypothesise.

.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mungler

[welsh1]

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

You've both said he's a mad, deranged murdering tyrant! 

But let's give him an excuse to be a worse one yeah? 

Save your venom for when/if he does do it. 

Save your venom lol, when should we be denounce him? is it not enough that he has illegally and with no reasonable excuse invaded a country and has killed and maimed a large number of the population,.Maybe we shouldn't condem him for that because he's just misunderstood and has made threats.
Maybe we should all keep our moths shut, withdraw all support to a country that has been invaded on our doorstep and just tell them to accept it, and when putin moves onto his next country we should all be good people and say and do nothing because we don't want to upset the bullying tyrant.

Lets save time, invite putin to take over all of europe including the uk, after all we don't want to upset him because he has made threats.

You may roll over and let putin rub your belly, but thank goodness there are many more that will stand and bare their teeth at him.

[welsh1]

26 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I heard the same rubbish when I was in Venezuela with Chavez. The only people changing out their regimes are the west. One by one they are getting booted out. Yet Putin has been in control for 22 years.

The west couldn't even boot out their corrupt health bureaucrats who literally sent their economies bankrupt.

Strangely i didn't see anyone in the west sending their detractors to jail or making sure they had "accidents". I haven't seen anyone in the west make laws to change old ones ensuring you can stay as the leader for as long as you want.

Putin has been in control for 22 years because he is a tyrant ruling by fear and violence, the west can boot out their leaders at elections, you know those democratic things we have every now and then, not like putins where the result could be announced before the elections have begun.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Forget the nukes and think again

That's not sensible. 

The nukes are on the playing field, the possibility of use us real. 

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Lets save time, invite putin to take over all of europe including the uk, after all we don't want to upset him because he has made threats.

You may roll over and let putin rub your belly, but thank goodness there are many more that will stand and bare their teeth at him

Lets not get carried away, the question remains, how far are we prepared to go for Ukraine? 

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Strangely i didn't see anyone in the west sending their detractors to jail or making sure they had "accidents". I haven't seen anyone in the west make laws to change old ones ensuring you can stay as the leader for as long as you want.

Putin has been in control for 22 years because he is a tyrant ruling by fear and violence, the west can boot out their leaders at elections, you know those democratic things we have every now and then, not like putins where the result could be announced before the elections have begun.

I just watched Donald Trump trying to run a country and trying to avoid a jail term for four years after to attempts to impeach him. Last time I checked Dmitry took over for a while. Did you miss those years?

 

[clangerman]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The nukes are on the playing field, the possibility of use us real. 

why argue when three mins is plenty of time to post I told you so in bold type! 

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That's not sensible. 

The nukes are on the playing field, the possibility of use us real. 

Lets not get carried away, the question remains, how far are we prepared to go for Ukraine? 

Depends how you look at it, I'd say a better question is how far are we prepared to go to help ensure the freedom of the western world and for that I think this country and others are prepared to do what it takes. Hence the west's response to Putin. 

[welsh1]

12 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I just watched Donald Trump trying to run a country and trying to avoid a jail term for four years after to attempts to impeach him. Last time I checked Dmitry took over for a while. Did you miss those years?

 

Did trump get removed at the next elections? or did i miss democracy in action?The people voted him in they also voted him out.


Tell me has putin had any sort of investigation launched against him by the russian parliment (federal assembly)?

Could trump or any of the western leaders get away with this?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/vladimir-putin-passes-law-that-may-keep-him-in-office-until-2036