Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Smokersmith]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

In 2000 , new leader putin talked to then president Clinton again about joining NATO, and was again rejected, the west has been increasingly hostile to this day.

Do I think NATO wants to invade Russia? No.

Not while it still has nukes anyway, but what does Russia think ? Are they confident they are safe, there's an awful lot of oil there, and the US are pretty gnarly when it comes to oil.

Putin asked for some concessions, he got nothing , not even a meeting about it, what he got was 10 years worth of US / NATO arms and training to fight Russia. 

What would you do ?

Don’t seem many replies of genocide.

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

It means everything that in 45, Russia had around 25 million dead bodies littering the ground. 

And its 'allies' wanted to put a few more down. 

You never answered the question how can you blame NATO when it didn’t even exist in 45 Reading your posts you seem to be defending Russia regarding not getting membership of NATO With putin invading Ukraine it proves nato was right all along And I don’t think USA Regarding your previous posts would invade Russia just for oil 

[Rewulf]

7 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

You never answered the question how can you blame NATO when it didn’t even exist in 45 Reading your posts you seem to be defending Russia regarding not getting membership of NATO With putin invading Ukraine it proves nato was right all along And I don’t think USA Regarding your previous posts would invade Russia just for oil 

You jumped to that conclusion quicker than most 🤣

Try reading it again slowly, and without your war excitement. 

Try and imagine the Germans invading this country in WW2, killing 20 % of the populace, and laying waste to most of its cities, you fight tooth and nail, then the Americans come along and help you defeat them. 

Then imagine the Americans make friends with the Germans, French and other Europeans, and discuss invading you again and finishing you off? 

Then they make an alliance that you aren't allowed to join. And start an arms race you can't afford. 

Try and see the paranoia this situation creates, see the other side. 

 

[Mungler]

That is a total misrepresentation of history, however, as per my earlier post there’s no point my wading in.

Let me put it another way, I have actually agreed with Ordnance on this subject - so we must be at end of days 🙂

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, looks like the money squeeze in Russia is affecting many by the long lines of citizens, now visa and MasterCard are stopping transactions , how long will they put up with no money or will it make Putin more determined than ever ?? as he does not care about Russian people 

Edited March 6, 2022 by oldypigeonpopper

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You jumped to that conclusion quicker than most 🤣

Try reading it again slowly, and without your war excitement. 

Try and imagine the Germans invading this country in WW2, killing 20 % of the populace, and laying waste to most of its cities, you fight tooth and nail, then the Americans come along and help you defeat them. 

Then imagine the Americans make friends with the Germans, French and other Europeans, and discuss invading you again and finishing you off? 

Then they make an alliance that you aren't allowed to join. And start an arms race you can't afford. 

Try and see the paranoia this situation creates, see the other side. 

 

Your talking about something that was talked about apparently by the allies in 1945 that never happened We could all imagine what could have been but it never did Do you forget that before WW2 Russia invaded Finland and were pushed back Hopefully the same will happen in Ukraine WE can all look at the past European politics But I’m more concerned about the future Good luck 

[Mungler]

11 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, looks like the money squeeze in Russia is affecting many by the long lines of citizens, now visa and MasterCard are stopping transactions , how long will they put up with no money or will it make Putin more determined than ever ?? as he does not care about Russian people 

It’s a hallmark of history, the tsarist approach that all Russian people are expendable serfs to whoever is in charge.

My favourite Stalin quote is the ‘1 death is a tragedy, 1,000,000 deaths is a statistic’ one. It also explains their heavy casualties when fighting the Germans - give the troops running at the German lines 1 gun between 2 men and shoot anyone who didn’t go along with that game plan. I digress.

[bluesj]

Looks like putin is just itching to use nukes, he seams to be coming up with more reasons to use them

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, bluesj said:

Looks like putin is just itching to use nukes, he seams to be coming up with more reasons to use them

And now wait for the Putin apologists defend his right to threaten nuclear war, whilst the rest of the free world seeks non lethal routes to resolve this (diplomacy and economic sanctions), over direct military action. The alternative is of course that we all just do nothing and act surprised when he rolls into Estonia and Finland etc.

On that point, I think we can all agree that Finland is a democratic sovereign nation? Finland now wants to join NATO - anyone want to offer a reason why we shouldn’t let Finland join NATO other than Putin says ‘no’ and what he wants should trump the population and democratically elected government of Finland?

 

[Gerry78]

17 minutes ago, bluesj said:

Looks like putin is just itching to use nukes, he seams to be coming up with more reasons to use them

He’s just a Bully like all bully’s when things don’t go there way he threatens more violence 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The alternative is of course that we all just do nothing and act surprised when he rolls into Estonia and Finland etc

Estonia is in NATO, Finland isn't {yet} so yes, if Finland gets invaded for 'daring' to join NATO, its likely we will do nothing except sell them some weapons, and change our profile pictures on Facebook to Finnish flags rather than Ukrainian. 

And let's get something straight, if this sounds like apologising for Putin, or Russia, it's nothing like it. I'm simply pointing out there are reasons why this is happening, I'm not saying they are justified or right, they clearly are NOT, but if all we can come up with is 'Putin's mad, and just likes killing people for fun' then we have lost any chance of ending this without WW3. 

So I'd start preparing for that, if we want to continue along that simplistic path. 

[Mungler]

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Estonia is in NATO, Finland isn't {yet} so yes, if Finland gets invaded for 'daring' to join NATO, its likely we will do nothing except sell them some weapons, and change our profile pictures on Facebook to Finnish flags rather than Ukrainian. 

And let's get something straight, if this sounds like apologising for Putin, or Russia, it's nothing like it. I'm simply pointing out there are reasons why this is happening, I'm not saying they are justified or right, they clearly are NOT, but if all we can come up with is 'Putin's mad, and just likes killing people for fun' then we have lost any chance of ending this without WW3. 

So I'd start preparing for that, if we want to continue along that simplistic path. 

There’s a reason Peter Sutcliffe liked to carve up women, but they really aren’t worth voicing are they?

Indeed just to voice the ‘reasons’ of any madman or to offer them up as a ‘reason’ does tend to lend a form of legitimacy.

Well, he did have his reasons didn’t he?

Putins latest video with the air stewardesses just shows he’s gone nuts. Whether he was actually there or if it was  all green screen, I care not. He’s gone in the head - another non recorded causality / stat of covid. I always said the mental health effects that would come from covid would be under recorded and far reaching; I didn’t think it would take us to WW3.

Edit

I have been scratching my head on the wider situation and I now firmly believe that the only solution is time. NATO and the world has to support Ukraine with funding, arms and supplies but not do anything that could tip us all into WW3. That means no no fly zone and our tellys being filled with pictures of dead civilians and bombed out towns.

If Putin ends up in the mud, spending all his money and getting nowhere over the weeks, months and perhaps years to come then the immediate threat to other neighbouring countries is abated and that will be Putin contained and worn down. We all get to buy time to get our houses in order.

With the passage of time Putin gets nearer to dying (old age, disease or an internal reshuffle) and it really is time that can only fix this. But what a terrible  cost to Ukraine.

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There’s a reason Peter Sutcliffe liked to carve up women, but they really aren’t worth voicing are they?

Indeed just to voice the ‘reasons’ of any madman or to offer them up as a ‘reason’ does tend to lend a form of legitimacy

I'm not sure how you've arrived at that conclusion, if people just 'do it' because they 'mad' then theres no way of stopping it, no way of learning how to prevent it in future, just chaos, over and over.... 

 

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Putins latest video with the air stewardesses just shows he’s gone nuts

Not seen it, but if he's nuts, and no one in Russia fancies stopping him, we might as well act now, before he does. 

Unfortunately we don't seem to be preparing for anything at all. 

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Edit

I have been scratching my head on the wider situation and I now firmly believe that the only solution is time. NATO and the world has to support Ukraine with funding, arms and supplies but not do anything that could tip us all into WW3. That means no no fly zone and our tellys being filled with pictures of dead civilians and bombed out towns.

If Putin ends up in the mud, spending all his money and getting nowhere over the weeks, months and perhaps years to come then the immediate threat to other neighbouring countries is abated and that will be Putin contained and worn down. We all get to buy time to get our houses in order.

With the passage of time Putin gets nearer to dying (old age, disease or an internal reshuffle) and it really is time that can only fix this. But what a terrible  cost to Ukraine.

 

Agreed 100 %

Ukraine, unfortunately, is the sacrifice for not escalating to a possible armageddon scenario. 

But don't you think Putin already thought of that, did the calculations, and acted accordingly? 

[Mungler]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Agreed 100 %

Ukraine, unfortunately, is the sacrifice for not escalating to a possible armageddon scenario. 

But don't you think Putin already thought of that, did the calculations, and acted accordingly? 

No.

I can’t see any upside for him and I think he’s isolated and not thinking straight. If you  have to lie to your troops or threaten to shoot them if they don’t fight, then you should have another think.

I’ve heard all sorts of nonsense about how Putin influenced government, sought to fix elections and was behind Brexit and Trump. The main line of argument was to create division and weakness in Europe and NATO, and here we are now - Germany just volunteered more money into NATO and countries lining up to join and get involved. If he took all the steps and spent all the money alleged to ‘influence’ world events, well he’s just undone all that in a week and at the same time bankrupted his country. Not exactly up there with tactically genius moves. 

My axe to grind right now is with Macron. He’s a grandstanding moron who last week, when everyone is trying to bolster the NATO alliance, decided to roll out his bandwagon for his European army. The all consuming French hatred and total lack of gratitude to the Yanks (who are NATO) is just awful.

Everyone has talked about Brexit and coming out of the EU in terms of financial cost - covid redefined financial cost and now, with what gone on in the Ukraine, autonomy now is back on top to remind everyone why Brexit may well turn out to be the best thing for us. Seriously, a European army? No doubt lead by the French or the Germans? What could go wrong with that? 😆 Oh and our past history with the EU does tend to show that we end up being shafted (by the French and Germans).

I digress, substantially! 
.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mungler

[old'un]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Agreed 100 %

Ukraine, unfortunately, is the sacrifice for not escalating to a possible armageddon scenario. 

But don't you think Putin already thought of that, did the calculations, and acted accordingly? 

You are more than likely correct, if so, it makes you wonder just how far into the future he as thought out what is final card will be should he start to loose this war.

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, old'un said:

You are more than likely correct, if so, it makes you wonder just how far into the future he as thought out what is final card will be should he start to loose this war.

Yeah but if wiping out the whole of mankind because he didn’t get his own way in Ukraine (or the next country on his list) was in his ‘plan’, then we’re all screwed and it’s up to his generals and populace to stop him. 

[old'un]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Yeah but if wiping out the whole of mankind because he didn’t get his own way in Ukraine (or the next country on his list) was in his ‘plan’, then we’re all screwed and it’s up to his generals and populace to stop him. 

Don't see how that's possible, he is only feeding the Russia people the information he wants them to hear.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, old'un said:

You are more than likely correct, if so, it makes you wonder just how far into the future he as thought out what is final card will be should he start to loose this war.

He won't lose it in a military sense, if he calculated NATO wouldn't get involved, there is little prospect of anything but a costly victory. 

Did he think the Ukrainian forces would fight so hard? Maybe not, but if Ukraine can see off the Russians, then there'll be NATO generals kicking themselves in frustration, though I doubt it's possible for that to happen, it certainly puts paid to those thinking he's going to roll on into Europe. Certainly, by the time he's done with Ukraine, he may not have much army left. 

What has happened, is Putin is no longer trusted, he had very little before, now he has none in the west. 

That's not to say that isn't a problem for us too, it could push Russia and China together more, but the reality is we have pushed ourselves back 50 years into the cold War. 

[Mungler]

This is super interesting. Long read but very worthwhile.

Belingcat say they think it is genuine FSB.

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1500301348780199937.html?fbclid=IwAR2AkwFpI_nnYQW4apEVCRIkzrAd3kTgHwuYxrBK7PQZzZ1AnrzEDJDSQgU

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mungler

[Nuke]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

Seriously, a European army?

Not that improbable. With the US taking a position in the stands and the UK going on it's own there will be a vacuum in NATO that somebody needs to fill.

With Germany investing solid money in their army and maybe Finland and Sweden applying to Nato (and as a concequece also increasing military spending) there is a real possibility that NATO will manage without troops from outside the EU to sort any trouble within Europe.

/M

[Dave-G]

I'm not as politically and historically aware as some on here but it strikes me that Cretin waited for his number two gas pipeline to be completed before risking the loss of his number one through the Ukraine? 

Thoughts invited on if this might have been Cretin hoping some sort of alliance with Germany might have occurred but Germany decided against it. Conspiracy helmet is within reach.

[old'un]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

This is super interesting. Long read but very worthwhile.

Belingcat say they think it is genuine FSB.

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1500301348780199937.html?fbclid=IwAR2AkwFpI_nnYQW4apEVCRIkzrAd3kTgHwuYxrBK7PQZzZ1AnrzEDJDSQgU

This article from 2015 is also a long read but interesting..https://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8845913/russia-war

[bluesj]

54 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Not that improbable. With the US taking a position in the stands and the UK going on it's own there will be a vacuum in NATO that somebody needs to fill.

With Germany investing solid money in their army and maybe Finland and Sweden applying to Nato (and as a concequece also increasing military spending) there is a real possibility that NATO will manage without troops from outside the EU to sort any trouble within Europe.

/M

Have to agree to some extent, after all who wants to get involved in something with biden i control only for him to change his mind and leave everyone else holding the baby!

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

Not that improbable. With the US taking a position in the stands and the UK going on it's own there will be a vacuum in NATO that somebody needs to fill.

With Germany investing solid money in their army and maybe Finland and Sweden applying to Nato (and as a concequece also increasing military spending) there is a real possibility that NATO will manage without troops from outside the EU to sort any trouble within Europe.

/M

All possible in the future. But not a subject to go anywhere near right now when NATO and NATO alliances is all that the free west has and demonstrating a unified front is so important.