Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[mick miller]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Call me cynical , but its called not believing the first thing you get told, by proven liars.

I have two defaults.

Not to trust a word anyone tells me unless I've seen it with my own two eyes, even then, you can never be too certain.

Never value the opinion of anyone you don't know and respect.

[oowee]

57 minutes ago, mick miller said:

All this **** they're sending isn't worth a carrot, is costing a fortune, is resulting is a massive drop in living standards in Europe, putting families in real poverty, driving up fuel prices unnecessarily and will survive for exactly, glances at watch, about 1 hour after being tracked to it's final destination.

It's a failed policy that is resulting in death, destruction, misery, and suffering and for what? They're not 'European', they're not part of NATO, they don't do anything for us, whose investments are we all suffering to protect here? Why are we all so motivated about this one and not Syria, Yemen and [insert whatever other stupid **** is going on somewhere here, usually in the Middle-East]? Is it because they're not brown?

Rather than sanctions 'making Russia suffer' they appear to be doing quite the opposite. Sadly, only the old warmongers like Kissinger can see that it is demonstrably harming the West, therefore poor policy. Their second generation offspring however appear to be both malign and as thick as mince.

Time to be big, grown up boys and put the sticks down and sit round a table. Before it gets very, very silly.

And, if that means you end up with a smaller play pit, so be it.

No it's time to fight harder. War does not stop because you want it to. There will be no ceasefire whilst Putin needs war to stay in power. When this one is over we can argue over Taiwan or simply dwindling resources or maybe global warming. Peace comes from strength and rules based order. 

We are only just starting the global crash that is coming down the tracks. Be under no illusion Russia is hurting but what is the alternative. We cannot ceed to the aggressor. 

@Rewulf Most launch systems will be capable of killing civilians or launching cluster weapons. We just have to pick a side. |Neither Ukraine or Russia signed upto the non use of cluster weapons. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

All this **** they're sending isn't worth a carrot, is costing a fortune, is resulting is a massive drop in living standards in Europe, putting families in real poverty, driving up fuel prices unnecessarily and will survive for exactly, glances at watch, about 1 hour after being tracked to it's final destination.

It's a failed policy that is resulting in death, destruction, misery, and suffering and for what? They're not 'European', they're not part of NATO, they don't do anything for us, whose investments are we all suffering to protect here? Why are we all so motivated about this one and not Syria, Yemen and [insert whatever other stupid **** is going on somewhere here, usually in the Middle-East]? Is it because they're not brown?

Rather than sanctions 'making Russia suffer' they appear to be doing quite the opposite. Sadly, only the old warmongers like Kissinger can see that it is demonstrably harming the West, therefore poor policy. Their second generation offspring however appear to be both malign and as thick as mince.

Time to be big, grown up boys and put the sticks down and sit round a table. Before it gets very, very silly.

And, if that means you end up with a smaller play pit, so be it.

I've said, all it's doing is prolonging the situation by supplying weapons,  it's not our fight but we, USA and many others are sending (selling) the Ukraine supplies, while the areas being fought in are trashed.

The big question is why is the Ukraine getting so much help??

 

[ordnance]

51 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I've said, all it's doing is prolonging the situation by supplying weapons,  it's not our fight but we, USA and many others are sending (selling) the Ukraine supplies, while the areas being fought in are trashed.

The big question is why is the Ukraine getting so much help??

 

So what would your answer be, don't supply weapons so Russia can take over Ukraine quicker. Maybe they are getting so much help because the west knows if Putin is not stoped on Ukraine soil now, it could be them next.

[Mungler]

24 minutes ago, ordnance said:

So what would your answer be, don't supply weapons so Russia can take over Ukraine quicker. Maybe they are getting so much help because the west knows if Putin is not stoped on Ukraine soil now, it could be them next.

This.

With all the Russia Today hypothesising a few people have lost sight of the bare fact that there was / is no good reason for Putin to roll tanks over the border to a neighbour. That’s the start and the end of it for me. All this talk about NATO threat is utter nonsense, as confirmed by the varying and wondrous reasons put forward by the Kremlin to date.

[Dave-G]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

This.

With all the Russia Today hypothesising a few people have lost sight of the bare fact that there was / is no good reason for Putin to roll tanks over the border to a neighbour. That’s the start and the end of it for me. All this talk about NATO threat is utter nonsense, as confirmed by the varying and wondrous reasons put forward by the Kremlin to date.

I think a gas belt grab under the Donbass - especially neon gas being used for microchips in some way is something to do with it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dave-G

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I think a gas belt under the donbass - especially neon gas

Neon is refined from air and doesn't come from any underground gas reserves.  It can (in theory) be extracted from the air anywhere.  It has been made in Ukraine as a by-product of steel making.  Steel producers separate out the air components oxygen and nitrogen so that they can be used in exact proportions to make the best steel and neon is a by product of this process)  It can be made anywhere - but it takes time to build the production plants that separate the air into its constituent parts.  China also makes a lot.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

I've said, all it's doing is prolonging the situation by supplying weapons,  it's not our fight but we, USA and many others are sending (selling) the Ukraine supplies, while the areas being fought in are trashed.

The big question is why is the Ukraine getting so much help??

 

Because we are standing against aggression and up for the free world in the face of a bully in our back yard. In our European zone. 

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

This.

With all the Russia Today hypothesising a few people have lost sight of the bare fact that there was / is no good reason for Putin to roll tanks over the border to a neighbour. That’s the start and the end of it for me. All this talk about NATO threat is utter nonsense, as confirmed by the varying and wondrous reasons put forward by the Kremlin to date.

^^^^^^^ 👍

This is the latest outrage following a growing and ever increasing series of attacks and murders. 

[Dave-G]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Neon is refined from air and doesn't come from any underground gas reserves.  It can (in theory) be extracted from the air anywhere.  It has been made in Ukraine as a by-product of steel making.  Steel producers separate out the air components oxygen and nitrogen so that they can be used in exact proportions to make the best steel and neon is a by product of this process)  It can be made anywhere - but it takes time to build the production plants that separate the air into its constituent parts.  China also makes a lot.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon

Ah yes that's it, probably why the Mariupol steelworks was fought so hard for. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Dave-G said:

Ah yes that's it, probably why the Mariupol steelworks was fought so hard for. 

The Wiki article suggests that the Ukraine plant is in Odessa, but I don't know any more than that.

[Dave-G]

17 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Wiki article suggests that the Ukraine plant is in Odessa, but I don't know any more than that.

I read there is another one there too - so another grab attempt is likely.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-ukraine-halts-half-worlds-neon-output-chips-clouding-outlook-2022-03-11/

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dave-G

[mick miller]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

So what would your answer be, don't supply weapons so Russia can take over Ukraine quicker. Maybe they are getting so much help because the west knows if Putin is not stoped on Ukraine soil now, it could be them next.

I don't give two ****s about Ukraine but I do care about what happens in my own country, to my family and neighbours. Why are you so concerned what happens to them? Are you Ukrainian? Think you know what's going on there? Suddenly an expert on geo politics because you watched good morning Britain and read the Telegraph? 

I'll ask it again. Why were none of you crying into your cornflakes over Yemen as just one example, where kids have been starving to death? 

I'm done with the hypocrisy. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

So what would your answer be, don't supply weapons so Russia can take over Ukraine quicker. Maybe they are getting so much help because the west knows if Putin is not stoped on Ukraine soil now, it could be them next.

I can't see how the Ukraine has benefited in any way by what's happened so far, millions of women and children have left, many will never return,  a vast area has been wrecked with who knows how many killed in the fighting.

Is very unlikely Putin is going to attack a NATO country,  all supplying the Ukraine is doing is keeping the fighting in the Ukraine. 

If the West truly wanted to stop what's going on then they would go into the Ukraine,  but we know that won't happen. 

Putins threat has kept anybody from direct action,  I said early on that the Ukraine shouldn't have resisted because they simply couldn't win, and it still seems like that to me.

This is why NATO was formed,  its why countries pay to be in, mutual protection. 

Nothing was done when Russia made its last two moves, only now has the West decided something needs doing. This has been going on for 8 years.

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

Because we are standing against aggression and up for the free world in the face of a bully in our back yard. In our European zone. 

But we're not, we're supplying weapons so someone else can fight against Russia,  like it's the 80s all over again, there are conflicts going on everywhere around the world,  all involving an aggressor and somebody with something they want, we aren't trying to supply all the countries or groups being bullied. 

This conflict is no doubt pushing up fuel and energy prices,  the local tesco has jumped to £1.88 this week,  a 7p rise in a few days after breaking the £1.80 barrier last week, and it's not looking likely it'll come down anytime soon, thankfully its warm now,  but if this is still going on come winter it won't be long before people are really struggling because of a fight/ conflict/ land grab that is nothing to do with us, when people can't afford to pay the bills or run their cars I very much doubt they'll be interested in how much of the Ukraine Russia took.

Imagine if Russia stops supplying Germany/France UK with energy, how long would they keep sending aid then?

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Neither Ukraine or Russia signed upto the non use of cluster weapons

Neither did the US, but again, that wasn't my point. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mice! said:

But we're not, we're supplying weapons so someone else can fight against Russia,  like it's the 80s all over again, there are conflicts going on everywhere around the world,  all involving an aggressor and somebody with something they want, we aren't trying to supply all the countries or groups being bullied

This. 

The US/NATO are using Ukraine as a battering ram against Russia, militarily and economically, and they aren't too bothered about how damaged that battering ram gets. 

[oowee]

18 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I can't see how the Ukraine has benefited in any way by what's happened so far, millions of women and children have left, many will never return,  a vast area has been wrecked with who knows how many killed in the fighting.

Is very unlikely Putin is going to attack a NATO country,  all supplying the Ukraine is doing is keeping the fighting in the Ukraine. 

If the West truly wanted to stop what's going on then they would go into the Ukraine,  but we know that won't happen. 

Putins threat has kept anybody from direct action,  I said early on that the Ukraine shouldn't have resisted because they simply couldn't win, and it still seems like that to me.

 

Imagine if Russia stops supplying Germany/France UK with energy, how long would they keep sending aid then?

No point living if it's under the boot of Russia.

Ukraine can win peace. Russia cannot win anything of value and cannot hold a country of that size. 

Russia cannot stop supplying fuel. The current oil rejection by Europe leaves Russia with 1m barrels a day that it will struggle to sell. Without cash the country will implode.

Expect fuel to be £2.50 a gallon very soon and food prices to increase many fold before this finishes. Global recession will be here soon together with famine.  It is the price of war.

Edited June 7, 2022 by oowee

[ordnance]

Quote

The US/NATO are using Ukraine as a battering ram against Russia, militarily and economically, and they aren't too bothered about how damaged that battering ram gets. 

What would your answer be, don't supply weapons and let Ukraine fall under Russian rule ? The US/NATO did not start this Russia / Putin did.  Its not like US/NATO is forcing the Ukrainian's to take weapons and fight, they are fighting for their country and requesting weapons to fight. 

Quote

But we're not, we're supplying weapons so someone else can fight against Russia,  like it's the 80s all over again, there are conflicts going on everywhere around the world,  all involving an aggressor and somebody with something they want, we aren't trying to supply all the countries or groups being bullied. 

Other countries and conflicts are not a threat to the West, Putin's war in Ukraine is that's the difference. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

Russia cannot stop supplying fuel.

The US WANTS them to stop supplying fuel! 

Then they have to buy it from them or their middle Eastern puppet states, they were highly aggressive toward Nord Stream, even threatening Germany with sanctions if they carried on with it! 

Russia is an oil competitor to the US, let's be very clear about that, then everything else makes more sense. 

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

It is the price of war

It's not OUR  war. 

 

3 minutes ago, ordnance said:

US/NATO did not start this Russia / Putin did

That could be debated. 

[ordnance]

Quote

US/NATO did not start this Russia / Putin did That could be debated. 

OK, I thought Russia invaded Ukraine 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

So, let’s try the lowest hanging fruit.

Skripal / Salisbury poisonings and Alexander Litvininko - Kremlin sanctioned assassinations, yes or no. 

 

Sometimes, even the lowest hanging fruit is out of reach for some. 🙂

[oowee]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The US WANTS them to stop supplying fuel! 

Russia is an oil competitor to the US, let's be very clear about that, then everything else makes more sense. 

 

Hardly the US is seeing price hikes worse than we are (48c last month alone). The UK and US want to stabalise prices and that means more supply. Boris failed to persuade Saudi and the UAE. Russia is down 1m barrels a day to the EU which is for the moment lost from supply. OPEC under pressure from the West including the US agreed to increase by 200k a day but spread proportionately across members including Russia and Syria. Many members cannot reach current limits so effectively just 60k barrels a day into supply.

[Mice!]

54 minutes ago, oowee said:

No point living if it's under the boot of Russia.

Ukraine can win peace. Russia cannot win anything of value and cannot hold a country of that size. 

Russia cannot stop supplying fuel. The current oil rejection by Europe leaves Russia with 1m barrels a day that it will struggle to sell. Without cash the country will implode.

Expect fuel to be £2.50 a gallon very soon and food prices to increase many fold before this finishes. Global recession will be here soon together with famine.  It is the price of war.

Many countries have been under the boot of Russia,  or the very real threat of it for lifetimes,  better to be alive than crushed.

Ukraine won't win peace while they can fight, they won't quit, they have made that much clear, and Russia won't quit and lose face. I never expected Russia to try and take the whole country,  that would spread them far to thin.

I don't understand the fuel rejection,  or why Russia cannot stop supplying it, someone will always buy it, I'm sure China would be happy to take it.

If you meant £2.50 a litre then your probably right, and food will continue to rise, it will probably lead to mass unrest, rioting and everything that brings with it, is supplying the Ukraine after being invaded by Russia worth  crashing the economy in Europe,  I don't think so.

And we are not at war.

45 minutes ago, ordnance said:

What would your answer be, don't supply weapons and let Ukraine fall under Russian rule ? The US/NATO did not start this Russia / Putin did.  Its not like US/NATO is forcing the Ukrainian's to take weapons and fight, they are fighting for their country and requesting weapons to fight. 

So why don't the West go in and occupy the rest of the Ukraine? NATO the west have been supplying and training the Ukrainians for years, why is that, probably because it would be Germany all over again. 

There won't be anything worth fighting for left if it continues the way its going. 

 

[ordnance]

Quote

 

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

What would your answer be, don't supply weapons and let Ukraine fall under Russian rule ? The US/NATO did not start this Russia / Putin did.  Its not like US/NATO is forcing the Ukrainian's to take weapons and fight, they are fighting for their country and requesting weapons to fight. 

So why don't the West go in and occupy the rest of the Ukraine? NATO the west have been supplying and training the Ukrainians for years, why is that, probably because it would be Germany all over again. 

There won't be anything worth fighting for left if it continues the way its going. 

 

 

Do you really have to ask why does NATO not get directly involved fighting a country ( Russia ) that is armed with thousands of nuclear weapons 

 

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

Do you really have to ask why does NATO not get directly involved fighting a country ( Russia ) that is armed with thousands of nuclear weapons 

 

Not at all, but the USA and China probably have just as many.

But I didn't say they should fight Russia,  I said occupy Ukraine, acting as a peace keeping force  but then it would be a stand off across the river instead of a wall

[oowee]

40 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Many countries have been under the boot of Russia,  or the very real threat of it for lifetimes,  better to be alive than crushed.

Ukraine won't win peace while they can fight, they won't quit, they have made that much clear, and Russia won't quit and lose face. I never expected Russia to try and take the whole country,  that would spread them far to thin.

I don't understand the fuel rejection,  or why Russia cannot stop supplying it, someone will always buy it, I'm sure China would be happy to take it.

If you meant £2.50 a litre then your probably right, and food will continue to rise, it will probably lead to mass unrest, rioting and everything that brings with it, is supplying the Ukraine after being invaded by Russia worth  crashing the economy in Europe,  I don't think so.

 

 

Russia needs to continue to supply to keep it's failing economy going and to build more weapons to keep fighting and to pay it's army.

1 Million barrels a day is 3 super tankers and 2 tankers. China is 35 days sail and would require 175 ships that don't currently exist. They will need insurance which they wont get as its controlled by very few companies. 

 

[ditchman]

this thread is getting far too complicated for me to follow now.......i would make a terrible warmonger...i just want to blow stuff up and kill things.........

all this geo-politicle fall out takes the fun out of it