Limping. Injection?

[getthegat]

I'm in a quandary concerning my dogs intermittent limping issue. She is a 5 year old lab/German short-haired Pointer, a rescue from Ireland. She loves running, is always on the go, but almost since we got her at around 7 months old, she has has intermittent limping from the front legs. She's had x-ray and scans done with the only anomaly being a bit of arthritis between 2 toes on the left paw. At times she has gone for months with no problem, but recently it has persisted and my vets has informed me that Loxicom and Metacam pain relief, has side effects that are bad for liver and kidneys. The alternative is a monthly injection, for the rest of her life, but to be honest I can't afford to go down that route. Obviously I don't want her to suffer and with the barley ripening and beans coming on, her pigeon retrieval skills will soon be needed, but have I explored all options, could it be that it's a bicep muscle thing, which needs time to heal or is it the arthritis, even though she favours the right leg and the arthritis is in her left paw. I don't know what to do for the best.

[Dave at kelton]

You have not said how pronounced the limp is or if the dog is in obvious discomfort. If it in discomfort as opposed to a bit of a limp it is a very different matter. My older dogs go onto glucosamine 300 mil from Holland and Barrett when they start to struggle and it does make a difference. Not sure if it would work in your case.

[ditchman]

try the dog on yu-Move

Edited May 23, 2022 by ditchman

[ninjaferret]

How about Turmeric ? 

[JTaylor91]

26 minutes ago, ditchman said:

try the dog on yu-Move

That transformed the father in laws Alsatian. The dog used to really struggle with his back end and struggled to get up. He runs around like a pup now, just a bit clumsily.

[getthegat]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

You have not said how pronounced the limp is or if the dog is in obvious discomfort. If it in discomfort as opposed to a bit of a limp it is a very different matter. My older dogs go onto glucosamine 300 mil from Holland and Barrett when they start to struggle and it does make a difference. Not sure if it would work in your case.

Sorry, at points she will literally stop and sit or lie down and not want to carry on, very unlike her

55 minutes ago, ditchman said:

try the dog on yu-Move

She has it every day and has done since we got her and she has a bit of olive oil on her meal in the evening. 

Been trying CBD oil this last month, not sure if it's helping, not significant for sure.

[Agriv8]

Don’t know about dogs but my arthritis is bad between sitting and first few steps . Cortisone injection fixes it. Does she chew the foot or joint usually indicating it’s troubling her ? Does she wine wimped in pain when she goes down with it ?

If it is muscular an anti inflation eg ibuprofen might be worth a try - again long time use not good - but if it improves her you may be looking at muscle damage rather than arthritis being cause.

finally a 5 year old working dog - might be worth looking at a vet 2nd opinion who specifically looks at joints and muscles the same way the humans head for Phisio.

Agriv8

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, ninjaferret said:

How about Turmeric ? 

that is brialliant stuff for dogs and humans.........trouble is after a couple of weeks it dosnt do anything...so you have to leave it out for a month or so and then take it again...

does work tho

[holloway]

I have an 11 year old springer who has arthritis in both elbows ,he has lived on Metacam for the past 3 or 4 years with no Ill effects ,I would estimate hundreds of thousands of dogs depend on it ,mine has worked less and less only going when he was at his soundest and now he stays at home , maybe there are more concerns starting a youngish dog on it .
Maybe worth a second opinion ? 

[getthegat]

That's all very useful information and gives other avenues to explore. Many thanks all, and agriv8, no she does do any of the things you asked about.

[ditchman]

maybe include into the diet a supplement that contains green lipped mussel .........

[Agriv8]

5 hours ago, getthegat said:

That's all very useful information and gives other avenues to explore. Many thanks all, and agriv8, no she does do any of the things you asked about.

I think trying vets drugs for a corse loxiocom metacalm see if they work before worries about affect’s  of long term use ! Blood and urine test could be taken for liver and kidney function but my gut says you would want results before starting corse of drugs to get base line figure.

ps not a vet or medical ( a part from lapsed first aider 😂😂)

hope you get you working pal back up to speed and fitness asap

Agriv8

 

[old'un]

19 hours ago, Agriv8 said:

Don’t know about dogs but my arthritis is bad between sitting and first few steps . Cortisone injection fixes it. Does she chew the foot or joint usually indicating it’s troubling her ? Does she wine wimped in pain when she goes down with it ?

If it is muscular an anti inflation eg ibuprofen might be worth a try - again long time use not good - but if it improves her you may be looking at muscle damage rather than arthritis being cause.

finally a 5 year old working dog - might be worth looking at a vet 2nd opinion who specifically looks at joints and muscles the same way the humans head for Phisio.

Agriv8

I thought ibuprofen was toxic for dogs?

[getthegat]

Many thanks "oldun" I wouldn't give any drugs without checking it out thoroughly first. She's so special to us, maybe I'm over reacting a little but after being dumped on the streets of Ireland as a pup, she deserves the best life possible. 

[chesterse]

I would try stopping the dogs free running and keep it on an extendable lead and give it Joint Aid or equivalent.

Can take a long time and a lot of patience but rest is a great healer.

[Agriv8]

4 hours ago, old'un said:

I thought ibuprofen was toxic for dogs?

My bad - Apologies probably - better to use word Anti inflammatory!

Agriv8

[old'un]

13 hours ago, getthegat said:

Many thanks "oldun" I wouldn't give any drugs without checking it out thoroughly first. She's so special to us, maybe I'm over reacting a little but after being dumped on the streets of Ireland as a pup, she deserves the best life possible. 

Can I ask if you have done a bone/joint examination of your dog? This may help to pinpoint the joint/area of pain...https://blog.pet.co.nz/dog/how-to-examine-your-dogs-legs-for-lameness-arthritis-and-more

Did your vet check for ‘incomplete ossification of the humeral condyle’ or IOHC?, I only ask as one of my dogs developed a limp on his front leg when he was about 8 months old, the limp was intermittent and I put it down to a temporary injury, sometimes he would go for months and little signs of anything wrong but when he was about two years old and after a hard day in the field he developed a bad limp, after a number of visits to my vet and an x-ray he put it down to arthritis, I was not happy with this diagnosis so asked for a referral, the referral vet soon discovered my dog had IOHC in both elbows, little about it here….https://www.ndsr.co.uk/specialist-referral-service/pet-health-information/orthopaedic-surgery/humeral-condylar-fissures

And here...https://www.animalsurgicalcenter.com/fractures-of-the-elbow-in-dogs

 

11 hours ago, Agriv8 said:

My bad - Apologies probably - better to use word Anti inflammatory!

Agriv8

[getthegat]

2 hours ago, old'un said:

Can I ask if you have done a bone/joint examination of your dog? This may help to pinpoint the joint/area of pain...https://blog.pet.co.nz/dog/how-to-examine-your-dogs-legs-for-lameness-arthritis-and-more

Did your vet check for ‘incomplete ossification of the humeral condyle’ or IOHC?, I only ask as one of my dogs developed a limp on his front leg when he was about 8 months old, the limp was intermittent and I put it down to a temporary injury, sometimes he would go for months and little signs of anything wrong but when he was about two years old and after a hard day in the field he developed a bad limp, after a number of visits to my vet and an x-ray he put it down to arthritis, I was not happy with this diagnosis so asked for a referral, the referral vet soon discovered my dog had IOHC in both elbows, little about it here….https://www.ndsr.co.uk/specialist-referral-service/pet-health-information/orthopaedic-surgery/humeral-condylar-fissures

And here...https://www.animalsurgicalcenter.com/fractures-of-the-elbow-in-dogs

 

Blimey "oldun" that's makes for excellent reading and amateur veterinary practice, I'll be donning my white coat this evening and doing a thorough inspection. Cheers 

[Agriv8]

Will be having a read of that myself later. Though donning the white lab coat had my mutt sitting very well about 5 yards away so the thermometer doesn’t get ‘inserted’

thanks oldun.

Agriv8

[bruno22rf]

Speak to your vet about Prednisolone, it's an anti inflammatory steroid that's cheap as chips (should be well under £10 for a months supply), you could give a low background dose of 5mg/day or just give it when she is actually suffering at a higher dose.

[old'un]

56 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Speak to your vet about Prednisolone, it's an anti inflammatory steroid that's cheap as chips (should be well under £10 for a months supply), you could give a low background dose of 5mg/day or just give it when she is actually suffering at a higher dose.

I dont think you can use Prednisolone as you have suggested, the dosage is based on the animals weight and must be given as a complete course, you cannot stop and start or give a dose bigger than prescribed, it also as some nasty side effects in some animals and humans, I know, I've been on Prednisolone for 6 months.

Having said that, it is as you say an excellent drug for treating such problems as the op describes but the course must be completed and the correct dosage is important in animals.

[bruno22rf]

12 hours ago, old'un said:

I dont think you can use Prednisolone as you have suggested, the dosage is based on the animals weight and must be given as a complete course, you cannot stop and start or give a dose bigger than prescribed, it also as some nasty side effects in some animals and humans, I know, I've been on Prednisolone for 6 months.

Having said that, it is as you say an excellent drug for treating such problems as the op describes but the course must be completed and the correct dosage is important in animals.

You can use Prednisolone as a low dose base drug, I have been on it for over 5 years for Arthritis, I'm on a low dose of 5mg/day but if I get a flare I can increase it to 20mg for several days till any swelling reduces. All drugs have side effect but at 5mg/day they are insignificant compared to being in agony and unable to walk.

[old'un]

2 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

You can use Prednisolone as a low dose base drug, I have been on it for over 5 years for Arthritis, I'm on a low dose of 5mg/day but if I get a flare I can increase it to 20mg for several days till any swelling reduces. All drugs have side effect but at 5mg/day they are insignificant compared to being in agony and unable to walk.

Must be conflicting advise from GP to GP as I was told that once I start the course it must be completed and the dosage must be tapered off/reduced over a number of weeks to allow your immune system to adjust.

[7daysinaweek]

3 hours ago, old'un said:

Must be conflicting advise from GP to GP as I was told that once I start the course it must be completed and the dosage must be tapered off/reduced over a number of weeks to allow your immune system to adjust.

Hi Old'un

The prescribing of a course of prednisalone that can be completed without any reduction, or conversely a dosing regime that will require it to be gradually reduce is made taking into account several factors among others. The condition which the drug is aiming to treat, the duration of the treatment and the likelihood of a relapse of the condition. Prednisalone can be stopped at the end a non tapered prescribed course dose for certain presentations that only require a short course and are indicated in a condition that is unlikey to relapse.

There are risks to abruptly stopping a long term dose which can result in what is known as 'acute adrenal insufficiency' which is a condition in which your adrenal cortices stop producing certain hormones that have been replaced by the synthetic man made prednisalone. Abruptly stopping the pred after long term use can lead to symptoms of acute renal insuffiency, these symptoms may present as fever, malaise, pain in joints, abdominal pain, fluid retention, confusuion, low bp among other symptoms, thankfully and very extremely rarely cases of mortality. This is what your gp may have been alluding to, gradually reducing the prednisalone over a period allows the adrenal cortices to start producing hormones again thus reducing the risk of 'acute renal insufficiency'.

Some dosing regimes may allow for the addition of 'stat' doses such as a additional doses above the daily prescribed maintenance dose in the event of a flare of the condition being treated in order to reduce the risk of the condition turning into a full blown excacerbation. These are formulated between the clinician and the patient and communicated to the patient as part of a clinical management plan as which may have been predetermined in Bruno's case.

Considerations firstly taken into account are allergies to the medication, contra indications, renal, liver function, interaction with other drugs that the pt is taking, other systems and conditions which may be impacted and also how concordant the patient is likely to be.

I prescribe prednisalone on a daily basis for quite a few different conditions, like many drugs it has benefits and risks and that is the play off between quality of life and pharmacology. Prednisalone when prescribed correctly and taken correctly is a very beneficial drug, it accounts for millions of prescriptions a year in the UK alone improves quality of life for many and also saves lives.

Drugs certainly are wonderful thing and if it was not for modern medicine and pharmacology I fear we would all be in the ground or the long hot oven a lot sooner. Hopefully, not too soon! 

Hope this helps.

Atb 7diaw

[old'un]

yep, thanks for that, 

I have been on them for about 6 months now, started on 15mg and now down to 8mg, the drug was prescribed to treat polymyalgia (PMR).