Sensibly priced FAC air rifle...advise

[Ultrastu]

9 minutes ago, Houseplant said:

CCI Quiet 22LR run at 710 fps.

That's slow . I suspect they would have a relatively  poor trajectory  for a .22lr more akin to a sub 12 .177  pellet so a 35 yd zero range and a max effective range of around 50 yds .with a drop of 8 inches at 70 yds - that's a lot to contend with .

Might as well just use a sub 12 .177  pcp  which walker already has and isn't quiet sufficient.  Sounds like any version of a .22 lr bullet isn't suitable  .so fully agree with walkers  wanting a fac. Air running around 900 fps plus would give around a 40 - 45 yd zero and around only 4 inches of drop at 70 yds .which is perfectly  acceptable . 

16 grns diabolo pellet  v 29 grns solid slug . One is much "safer " than the other.

 

[Mice!]

54 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i cant see how a 22 rimfire firing shorts will richochet any more or less than a FAC airgun pushing the same ft/ibs.  at 70 yards the stated distance he will be shooting both will only be carrying about half the energy it left the barrel with if a balistic calculator is to be belived. then its got to dump energy into the magpie or rat, their wont be a great deal of energy left at that point and so an adequate back stop wont have to be that substantial. if youre passing through the quarry and causing damage  or are clean missing the target so the round isnt energy dumping then at that point  its not an issue of  wrong tool for the job its poor decision making. however from the comments the guy seems quite switched on so id imagine neither will be a conern.

 

 

Quarry can move though, I'd be using a 14-16gn pellet in .22,  so it might be going the same speed but would carry less energy than the 29gn bullet you mentioned,  

I'm going purely off what I've read only though, people always talk about the high  ricochet chance when using 22 rimfire so I wouldn't want that risk in a farm yard, pellets rarely bounce off concrete.

[Ultrastu]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

Quarry can move though, I'd be using a 14-16gn pellet in .22,  so it might be going the same speed but would carry less energy than the 29gn bullet you mentioned,  

I'm going purely off what I've read only though, people always talk about the high  ricochet chance when using 22 rimfire so I wouldn't want that risk in a farm yard, pellets rarely bounce off concrete.

Mate of mine has a .22lr .it rarely sees the light of day .it's a very very nice gun and super accurate  .but there is the constant worry about backstop and ricochet and how faraway something is . And if you have ever heard a .22 lr sub sonic  ricochet off something that you thought it really would'nt do and bounce down a field - it's not nice .I don't own one and never will  there are better tools for the job .in my opinion. (Fac air ) .

[Sweet11-87]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Quarry can move though, I'd be using a 14-16gn pellet in .22,  so it might be going the same speed but would carry less energy than the 29gn bullet you mentioned,  

I'm going purely off what I've read only though, people always talk about the high  ricochet chance when using 22 rimfire so I wouldn't want that risk in a farm yard, pellets rarely bounce off concrete.

i think youre mis-understanding  they arnt going the same speed. the lighter round is going signifigantly faster to achive the same ft ibs of energy. they hit with the same force. the faster round actualy has the potential to richocet more.

 

"Mate of mine has a .22lr .it rarely sees the light of day .it's a very very nice gun and super accurate  .but there is the constant worry about backstop and ricochet and how faraway something is . And if you have ever heard a .22 lr sub sonic  ricochet off something that you thought it really would'nt do and bounce down a field - it's not nice .I don't own one and never will  there are better tools for the job .in my opinion. (Fac air ) ."

well your point is valid about 22lr  in this specific situation but were talking about .22 short.  im not suggesting using a 22lr for the job im just saying a 22 rimfire chambered in 22lr can easily accept .22 short which would do the job no problem and still be an all round in most scenarios the more reliable,robust, cheaper, lighter and more versatile tool.

so far the only pro ive heard for the fac air gun over a 22 rimfire is that ammo is cheaper and convinience buying is possible. Realistically thats only a factor  when going after live quarry if youre taking 100s of animals a week. even then its only 11p against 4p. youd have to shoot a hell of allot of rimfire to reach a point youd break even with what youd spend on a fac airgun set up

[oowee]

40 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i think youre mis-understanding  they arnt going the same speed. the lighter round is going signifigantly faster to achive the same ft ibs of energy. they hit with the same force. the faster round actualy has the potential to richocet more.

 

"Mate of mine has a .22lr .it rarely sees the light of day .it's a very very nice gun and super accurate  .but there is the constant worry about backstop and ricochet and how faraway something is . And if you have ever heard a .22 lr sub sonic  ricochet off something that you thought it really would'nt do and bounce down a field - it's not nice .I don't own one and never will  there are better tools for the job .in my opinion. (Fac air ) ."

well your point is valid about 22lr  in this specific situation but were talking about .22 short.  im not suggesting using a 22lr for the job im just saying a 22 rimfire chambered in 22lr can easily accept .22 short which would do the job no problem and still be an all round in most scenarios the more reliable,robust, cheaper, lighter and more versatile tool.

so far the only pro ive heard for the fac air gun over a 22 rimfire is that ammo is cheaper and convinience buying is possible. Realistically thats only a factor  when going after live quarry if youre taking 100s of animals a week. even then its only 11p against 4p. youd have to shoot a hell of allot of rimfire to reach a point youd break even with what youd spend on a fac airgun set up

How accurate is .22short? 

[Houseplant]

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

That's slow . I suspect they would have a relatively  poor trajectory  for a .22lr more akin to a sub 12 .177  pellet so a 35 yd zero range and a max effective range of around 50 yds .with a drop of 8 inches at 70 yds - that's a lot to contend with .

Fair comments, I can only vouch for them out to 25 metres. I used them in a similar situation to the OP.

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Mate of mine has a .22lr .it rarely sees the light of day .it's a very very nice gun and super accurate  .but there is the constant worry about backstop and ricochet and how faraway something is . And if you have ever heard a .22 lr sub sonic  ricochet off something that you thought it really would'nt do and bounce down a field - it's not nice .I don't own one and never will  there are better tools for the job .in my opinion. (Fac air ) .

22LR is my favourite calibre by far for various reasons and I can buy anything that's out there, even a 50BMG. 

[Wharf Rat]

I had a chat with a member on here years ago about shooting in a paddock.  He was finding that .22 shorts ricocheted badly and asked if anyone locally had an FAC air.  The air option was a LOT less pingy!

 

That said, I had a gut churning ricochet from a 10.5 ft-lb HW97K once.  Unbelievable whine from such a low powered projectile.   Pellet must have hit a flint after the it passed through the rabbit.  

[chrisjpainter]

5 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i cant see how a 22 rimfire firing shorts will richochet any more or less than a FAC airgun pushing the same ft/ibs.  at 70 yards the stated distance he will be shooting both will only be carrying about half the energy it left the barrel with if a balistic calculator is to be belived. then its got to dump energy into the magpie or rat, their wont be a great deal of energy left at that point and so an adequate back stop wont have to be that substantial. if youre passing through the quarry and causing damage  or are clean missing the target so the round isnt energy dumping then at that point  its not an issue of  wrong tool for the job its poor decision making. however from the comments the guy seems quite switched on so id imagine neither will be a conern.

 

 

Not really. Poor decision making doesn't create over-penetration as such; the wrong tool for the job does. Over-penetration is the result of too much energy in the round at the range of shot. So you're left with either not taking the shot, or risking over penetration and the chances of significant damage behind that. How do you fix that? Having the right tool for the job. Then you can take the closer shots as well as the longer range ones. Not being able to do your job to keep the pests down because they were too close for you to shoot is the sign of poor decision making in choice of tool, not the over-penetration.

Rimfires suffer from ricochets more because of the type of round they are. They're a large (compared to air rifle pellets) mass travelling at a low speed. So when they hit objects, they hit a larger surface area. They have too much energy to just deplete and drop on the spot, but not enough to punch through and embed. So if they hit anything with any kind of angle, they ricochet. A 22lr round has that worst of both worlds problem. And they don't deform as readily because of the slower speeds. When travelling at the same energy, the significantly smaller air rifle pellet is more likely to either embed (after going through the quarry), because it's imparting its energy on a smaller surface area, or expend all its energy and just drop. It will also deform, because there's a lot less lead, so even if they do ricochet, they won't go as for or retain anything like the energy, because whatever energy it did retain will partly be expended in the deformation process. 

Any round can ricochet, given the right environment, but because of the relationship between its size, shape and speed, a 22lr creates the right environment far more readily.

Edited October 21, 2022 by chrisjpainter

[Wharf Rat]

54 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

Any round can ricochet, given the right environment, but because of the relationship between its size, shape and speed, a 22lr creates the right environment far more readily.

Yep.  Same goes for AAA shotgun loads.  They ricochet like crazy.   Similar ballistics equals equal twangs.

[Kev1gun]

There are loads of Theoben Rapids in Fac .20 being my favourite, lets fce it pretty much all   the other FAC air rifles are copies of the Rapid, I've got 6 so maybe I'm a bit biased but for that job my .20 would sort them in short order.

I do have stuff by others BSA, Brocock, FX etc, but if i want the job done with no fuss, then I'll reach for a Rapid everytime.

[Walker570]

Try throwing a ducky stone as hard as you can and it will fail to bounce on the water surface 9 times out of ten. Throw it gently and it will bounce every time and that is why the sub sonic 22s are serious bouncers even on hard summer cereal crop fields after harvest.   As said any round can 'bounce' and I have had 17 Remington rounds bounce of the surface at excess 4000ft per sec..  AGAIN  BACKGROUND BACK GROUND BACKGROUND.

[Sweet11-87]

18 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

Not really. Poor decision making doesn't create over-penetration as such; the wrong tool for the job does. Over-penetration is the result of too much energy in the round at the range of shot. So you're left with either not taking the shot, or risking over penetration and the chances of significant damage behind that. How do you fix that? Having the right tool for the job. Then you can take the closer shots as well as the longer range ones. Not being able to do your job to keep the pests down because they were too close for you to shoot is the sign of poor decision making in choice of tool, not the over-penetration.

Rimfires suffer from ricochets more because of the type of round they are. They're a large (compared to air rifle pellets) mass travelling at a low speed. So when they hit objects, they hit a larger surface area. They have too much energy to just deplete and drop on the spot, but not enough to punch through and embed. So if they hit anything with any kind of angle, they ricochet. A 22lr round has that worst of both worlds problem. And they don't deform as readily because of the slower speeds. When travelling at the same energy, the significantly smaller air rifle pellet is more likely to either embed (after going through the quarry), because it's imparting its energy on a smaller surface area, or expend all its energy and just drop. It will also deform, because there's a lot less lead, so even if they do ricochet, they won't go as for or retain anything like the energy, because whatever energy it did retain will partly be expended in the deformation process. 

Any round can ricochet, given the right environment, but because of the relationship between its size, shape and speed, a 22lr creates the right environment far more readily.

were entering the relm of samantics at this point i think.  my point is still if he had a 22lr chambered rifle and loaded shorts youve got a cheap and light tool that covers you for this task and a wide array of task in the future covering sub 40ft/ibs- 200 ft/ibs.  if you get a fac air rifle when you already own a sub 12 air rifle youve payed a big price tag for what is in essence a 1 trick pony as all youve really done is get another 20 yards out of what you can get already.

i mean if we  think about it whats going to happen is hes probably going to get a dozen or so before they wise up and move out of range again then we have a whole new senario and list of restricting factors.

if im honest,if it were me in this situatuation id use what i had avalible and if the magpies wont bait to a safe spot to shoot, and if he cant move his hide closer, change his angle, have the cattle removed or build up a safe back stop then im sorry the magpies dont get shot. and if they are such a huge issue  then the landowner needs to make one of the above possible or just use a larson trap.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[Walker570]

, I am sorry to say Mr. Sweet you are talking a load of rubbish, why?  Because you have no knowledge of the location whatsoever and the situation. I have been controlling vermin including magpies on this farm for the last 25yrs and all of my set ups are well thought out. Developments and expansion of the site has resulted in a need for longer distances to potential targets. There is already ample food for the vermin so apart from three flip top feeders for tree rats there is little point in spreading more. I have just a touch over 60 years experience of shooting vermin and some seriously large animals with everything from 177 air rifles to 458Winchester big game rifles and including 14yrs as a service sniper. My assesment of MY situation tells me that an FAC air rifle will cut the mustard.  With regard to frightening the magpies off, surprise surprise after some two decades of shooting them here they still keep coming.  

[Mice!]

41 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

you get a fac air rifle when you already own a sub 12 air rifle youve payed a big price tag for what is in essence a 1 trick pony as all youve really done is get another 20 yards out of what you can get already.

Sounds perfect really,  there are a lot of people using fac air for exactly this reason,  its more than sub12 but not too much.

[Ttfjlc]

@Sweet11-87which .22 shorts have you found accurate at 70 yards? I've read enough threads to suggest they're not brilliant past 30 ish yards 40 at a push so it'd be nice to try some that group past 50? I agree with @Mice! fac air seems ideal for the OP's needs.

[Stonepark]

Shorts tend not to be accurate through LR as they do not seal the barrel correctly as the case is too short.

If you want shorts to be accurate, you really need a rifle chambered in 22 Short.

[chrisjpainter]

1 hour ago, Ttfjlc said:

@Sweet11-87which .22 shorts have you found accurate at 70 yards? I've read enough threads to suggest they're not brilliant past 30 ish yards 40 at a push so it'd be nice to try some that group past 50? I agree with @Mice! fac air seems ideal for the OP's needs.

It's almost as if 25 years shooting the same permission gave him a clue as to what might work for him!

Agreed. Shorts are no option at all. Inaccurate at long ranges and irrelevant at short. 

[Sweet11-87]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

, I am sorry to say Mr. Sweet you are talking a load of rubbish, why?  Because you have no knowledge of the location whatsoever and the situation. I have been controlling vermin including magpies on this farm for the last 25yrs and all of my set ups are well thought out. Developments and expansion of the site has resulted in a need for longer distances to potential targets. There is already ample food for the vermin so apart from three flip top feeders for tree rats there is little point in spreading more. I have just a touch over 60 years experience of shooting vermin and some seriously large animals with everything from 177 air rifles to 458Winchester big game rifles and including 14yrs as a service sniper. My assesment of MY situation tells me that an FAC air rifle will cut the mustard.  With regard to frightening the magpies off, surprise surprise after some two decades of shooting them here they still keep coming.  

well with respect youre experiance and knowlege of the place is not what im questioning. ive already said above you sound like youre switched on, but youve already also said you killed 300 in 18 months some years ago and now you see between 6-12 at one time so they have clearly moved on, been killed or sussed you out if this small number are repeatedly landing and feeding in areas you cant get at them with ease. so they have wised on to a degree. As youll know given the time youve spent at them it wont take long whatever you decide to use if you are effective magpies wont stay put, they will move so it may be a fools errand to invest in somthing that may not fit your needs long. my argument is that overall a 22lr is a more universal tool in general not just this specific situation.

 

 

 

[chrisjpainter]

4 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

were entering the relm of samantics at this point i think.  my point is still if he had a 22lr chambered rifle and loaded shorts youve got a cheap and light tool that covers you for this task and a wide array of task in the future covering sub 40ft/ibs- 200 ft/ibs.  if you get a fac air rifle when you already own a sub 12 air rifle youve payed a big price tag for what is in essence a 1 trick pony as all youve really done is get another 20 yards out of what you can get already.

i mean if we  think about it whats going to happen is hes probably going to get a dozen or so before they wise up and move out of range again then we have a whole new senario and list of restricting factors.

if im honest,if it were me in this situatuation id use what i had avalible and if the magpies wont bait to a safe spot to shoot, and if he cant move his hide closer, change his angle, have the cattle removed or build up a safe back stop then im sorry the magpies dont get shot. and if they are such a huge issue  then the landowner needs to make one of the above possible or just use a larson trap.

 

What with? We've already established a 22lr is an unsuitable gun for the job, and shorts give you no more RELIABLE range  than an FAC air. Or even a sub-12 gun. So what's going to give you a reliable shot with extra stopping power and extended range? Your argument might be that the 22lr is a more universal tool - but this isn't about that. It never has been. It's about an appropriate gun for the @Walker570's situation. And that's quite obviously an FAC Air. Does it give the range? Yes. Does it give the accuracy? Yes. Does it limit ricochet risk? Yes. It's no good saying 'ah but if you were in lots of other situations, a 22LR is better'... 'cos he 'ain't! You're wrong about it being a one trick pony, but even if you are right, what do you get to do that trick? Something else that doesn't do it as effectively or safely, or something that does it perfectly?  

That's a moot point anyway, because it'd apply to using 22LR shorts as well. And those really are a one-trick pony...and not very good at that one trick anyway. At least with FAC-Air, they make a great squirrel control option too, where shooting low to high isn't an option with a 22lr. 

[Ttfjlc]

I was about to write what @chrisjpainterdid but he beat me to it

[Walker570]

8 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

well with respect youre experiance and knowlege of the place is not what im questioning. ive already said above you sound like youre switched on, but youve already also said you killed 300 in 18 months some years ago and now you see between 6-12 at one time so they have clearly moved on, been killed or sussed you out if this small number are repeatedly landing and feeding in areas you cant get at them with ease. so they have wised on to a degree. As youll know given the time youve spent at them it wont take long whatever you decide to use if you are effective magpies wont stay put, they will move so it may be a fools errand to invest in somthing that may not fit your needs long. my argument is that overall a 22lr is a more universal tool in general not just this specific situation.

 

 

 

Afraid Mr Sweet you are again talking nonesense. Obviously have no experience or knowledge .  Only this week I shot one out of two magpies that landed in the yard 25yrds away the second flew off about 150 yrds into a tree only to return to the same spot about 40 mins later to join it's mate.  They don't associate what happens with me because the effect on the point of impact is almost silent. I small 'thwok' as the pellet arrives.   The reason I now only have a dozen at a time coming in is because I have seriously dented the breeding in that area and what are showing up now are new arrivals filling the vaccuum, not because I have educated them.   The 22RF whatever the actual round used is an absolute No No in this situation.  I have a nice little super accurate Browning 22RF but would not consider it here.

[Sweet11-87]

4 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Afraid Mr Sweet you are again talking nonesense. Obviously have no experience or knowledge .  Only this week I shot one out of two magpies that landed in the yard 25yrds away the second flew off about 150 yrds into a tree only to return to the same spot about 40 mins later to join it's mate.  They don't associate what happens with me because the effect on the point of impact is almost silent. I small 'thwok' as the pellet arrives.   The reason I now only have a dozen at a time coming in is because I have seriously dented the breeding in that area and what are showing up now are new arrivals filling the vaccuum, not because I have educated them.   The 22RF whatever the actual round used is an absolute No No in this situation.  I have a nice little super accurate Browning 22RF but would not consider it here.

You know what, ive not been rude, if youre going to start a thread asking for advice then get funny with folks offering a diffrent perspective or opinion im out..  youre looking for a "sensibly priced"  tool for the job i offered my opinion and reasons why.  so fill your boots bud.

[chrisjpainter]

3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

You know what, ive not been rude, if youre going to start a thread asking for advice then get funny with folks offering a diffrent perspective or opinion im out..  youre looking for a "sensibly priced"  tool for the job i offered my opinion and reasons why.  so fill your boots bud.

No he didn't ask for that. He asked for a sensibly priced FAC-Air rifle advice. Sort of suggesting he already knew what would suit best...

'I'm after a new tractor.'

'certainly sir, I think this bicycle will do the job'

Edited October 22, 2022 by chrisjpainter

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

You know what, ive not been rude, if youre going to start a thread asking for advice then get funny with folks offering a diffrent perspective or opinion im out..  youre looking for a "sensibly priced"  tool for the job i offered my opinion and reasons why.  so fill your boots bud.

Will do.

[Walker570]

Seems I have frightened all the maggies away. Just nipped across to the farm to fit a new window flap on my box hide and about a dozen flew off the silage.