Steel v Lead

[Charliedog]

2 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I don’t think paying 56.9 p / steel cartridge compared to about 40p / lead equivalent will make a lot of difference to the overall cost of game shooting. 

I do take you’re point however that they are a silly price non the less. I think there is some commercial opportunism creeping in - re manufacturers inflating prices ahead of lead disappearing. 

Agreed, most of us at the lower end of commercial game shooting will be paying £40 a bird, some paying double and even treble, 50p a game cart is not even really a consideration for those at the lower end of the spectrum, 1 slab may see me through 2 seasons.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Gas seal said:

Shooters now have a choice of  non lead cartridges with different types of bio wads. We never had that in commercial cartridges before. Cardboard wads have been available for decades it’s nothing new. If lead cartridges are made illegal we have a choice use available non lead or stop shooting, wildflowers had the same choice with wildfowl and they are still shooting. Commercial shooting can look after themselves . I’ve seen a lot of changes in shooting over the years, including non lead for wildfowl, nothing so far has stopped me shooting. The cost of shooting will increase just the same as other sports and more people are watching what we are doing. I have noticed that (none lead ) is used more by manufacturers and others. 

Happy to use it however in a lot of area’s it’s availability that is the problem along with non existent components for home loading that’s another option removed 

any legislation should be fair and affordable  to all not just the richest participant in the sport 

 

[Fellside]

32 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Happy to use it however in a lot of area’s it’s availability that is the problem along with non existent components for home loading that’s another option removed 

any legislation should be fair and affordable  to all not just the richest participant in the sport 

 

Yes agreed. My comments were about how an extra 10 or 20 pence per cart’ doesn’t really hike up the price of game shooting. However, it is extremely important that those who don’t shoot driven, aren’t excluded by silly cart’ prices.

I do hope that the usual market forces (competition and new imports etc) will bring the prices down. Right now the cart’ companies seem to be trading on rarity value and the ‘new innovation’ ticket. Those selling points will soon dissolve if the mass market is dominated by steel shot. 

[bigroomboy]

I think Scully is spot on with what he is trying to say here, but sometimes we are too close to the issues to see the big picture. Change is happening, it's not clear exactly what the end result will be, but pretending it's not happening is just insanity. The organisations have got a lot of stick from that group, but I think they have also been right. Whilst we still have a choice they have push manufacturers to develop viable options, rather than overnight being left with nothing.

My view is simple. Game shooting, especially commercial driven shooting is nothing more than a sport derived around a method of food rearing and harvesting. If the consumer of that meat does not want lead in it then it shall not be shot with lead. simple. Also the impact on the environment and wild birds needs to be considered.

My shoot in SSSI has agreed to transition to steel in the conservation plan. I've started on Eley pro eco 32g 5s. So far I've not found them to be convincing at anything but short ranges and hit with good pattern. I've just got a slab of 3s and will evaluate them. Ballistically they should be perfectly fine out to 40yrds, which in my book is actually a long way for game. I'll report back.

[Weihrauch17]

4 hours ago, Fellside said:

Yes agreed. My comments were about how an extra 10 or 20 pence per cart’ doesn’t really hike up the price of game shooting. However, it is extremely important that those who don’t shoot driven, aren’t excluded by silly cart’ prices.

I do hope that the usual market forces (competition and new imports etc) will bring the prices down. Right now the cart’ companies seem to be trading on rarity value and the ‘new innovation’ ticket. Those selling points will soon dissolve if the mass market is dominated by steel shot. 

It is not just about the price of 12 & 20 bore steel cartridges for rich people on Commercial shoots who can afford them.  It will kill Airguns, 22lr, HMR, small bore CF and none main stream shotgun gauges.  Airguns are a historic way into shooting for the vast majority, me included at the age of seven. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Scully]

17 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-uk-reach-lead-ammunition-consultation/

Assuming steel shot is manufactured in sufficient quantity to replace lead, which is not a given that it will be.

The phasing out of lead will no doubt go ahead whether cartridge manufacturers can keep up or not. No doubt a shortage will increase prices, but no one cares about that other than us. 

16 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

indeed, but why should those who dislike shooting have anymore influence than us? it’s a democracy we live in is it not?
it may not be obvious to an outsider of shooting, but it’s not a done deal YET, what ever that deal will look like.

BASC response looks weak, to assume no legislation is need for live quarry shooting using shot just because of their voluntary transition and continue to allow lead for Clay shooting as nobody would use lead shot clay cartridges for live quarry is laughable. looks like they are suggesting a very limited ban on lead in rifle ammunition only. 
Possibly trying not to upset the CPSA, who only the other week suggested moving to a maximum lead shot load of 24gm so the clay cartridges will not be used for live quarry shooting.

The cliff edge is getting much closer, one thing is looking certain, shooting will decline going forward.

Because they outnumber us? As for democracy, It’s not like the nation is going to be offered a vote to keep or ban lead is it? 

[Fellside]

18 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

It is not just about the price of 12 & 20 bore steel cartridges for rich people on Commercial shoots who can afford them.  It will kill Airguns, 22lr, HMR, small bore CF and none main stream shotgun gauges.  Airguns are a historic way into shooting for the vast majority, me included at the age of seven. 

Indeed. I have just been having a lot of fun shooting clays with a 410 today - lead shot of course. I do fear for the future of this great little caliber. What would we do without it for introducing youngsters in to shotgunning…..?!

[enfieldspares]

6 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Indeed. I have just been having a lot of fun shooting clays with a 410 today - lead shot of course. I do fear for the future of this great little caliber. What would we do without it for introducing youngsters in to shotgunning…..?!

That's the point of a lot of these measures like the ending of people just being able to turn up and try s1 firearms at gun clubs as they once did. When you could take a friend, neighbour or family friend along and it was nobody's business except that of the owners of the range or the club that was using the range (or owned it). It is to starve the sport of new blood, new incomers, to cut it off at the roots to stop further growth.

[Newbie to this]

50 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

That's the point of a lot of these measures like the ending of people just being able to turn up and try s1 firearms at gun clubs as they once did. When you could take a friend, neighbour or family friend along and it was nobody's business except that of the owners of the range or the club that was using the range (or owned it). It is to starve the sport of new blood, new incomers, to cut it off at the roots to stop further growth.

^^^This.

[Fellside]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

^^^This.

I wasn’t aware that you couldn’t take a friend shooting - what’s changed? I take people clay shooting quite regularly to let them ‘have a go’. I have always understood I can supervise them as a license holder.

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I wasn’t aware that you couldn’t take a friend shooting - what’s changed? I take people clay shooting quite regularly to let them ‘have a go’. I have always understood I can supervise them as a license holder.

You still can; I think he was referring to S1 firearms, although I’m not sure you can’t still do that. We do. 

[rbrowning2]

8 hours ago, Scully said:

The phasing out of lead will no doubt go ahead whether cartridge manufacturers can keep up or not. No doubt a shortage will increase prices, but no one cares about that other than us. 

Because they outnumber us? As for democracy, It’s not like the nation is going to be offered a vote to keep or ban lead is it? 

lots of legislation is passed without the nation being offered a vote.
We look like we are just rolling over and encouraging a lead ban on poor science, blimey smoking is more of a health issue than lead in food yet nobody suggests a total ban on smoking.

10 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I wasn’t aware that you couldn’t take a friend shooting - what’s changed? I take people clay shooting quite regularly to let them ‘have a go’. I have always understood I can supervise them as a license holder.

As Scully says it is section 1 home office approved clubs, as I understand it they can only have so many open days a year,  must notify the police in advance and provide the personal details of the people attending.

[Newbie to this]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

You still can; I think he was referring to S1 firearms, although I’m not sure you can’t still do that. We do. 

You can still do guest days for S1, but I believe these are supposed to be arranged days, not just a turn up and shoot. Other than that it is probationary members.

I have some S1 that you cannot shoot regardless of guest days or being a probationary member. You need to have them on your cert.

But it is not that bit I was in agreement with, it was this statement

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

That's the point of a lot of these measures

Most if not all of the restriction measures are about making it harder or not worth it to some, to shoot.

[enfieldspares]

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Most if not all of the restriction measures are about making it harder or not worth it to some, to shoot.

I think a lot of this was behind the Home Office wish to stop the miniature rifle gallery rifle (.22LR) exemption. As once range near to me would quite lawfully hold a miniature rifle gallery rifle day run by a separate enterprise that had the range on an exclusivity for the day so as to allow people to just turn up and pay and play. As if it were a miniature rifle gallery on a fairground would do.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

lots of legislation is passed without the nation being offered a vote.
We look like we are just rolling over and encouraging a lead ban on poor science, blimey smoking is more of a health issue than lead in food yet nobody suggests a total ban on smoking.

 

Yep. No one is suggesting a total ban on shooting either….well, apart from antis. 

[rbrowning2]

22 hours ago, Fellside said:

I don’t think paying 56.9 p / steel cartridge compared to about 40p / lead equivalent will make a lot of difference to the overall cost of game shooting. 

I do take you’re point however that they are a silly price non the less. I think there is some commercial opportunism creeping in - re manufacturers inflating prices ahead of lead disappearing. 

indeed for game shooting, but however this is a pigeon shooting forum, will 60p a cartridge be appropriate for crop protection? Then clay pigeon shooting, lots of grounds are fibre wads only, and clay cartridges are what keep the manufactures in business. Could realistically be looking at 40p plus per clay and 40p plus for a steel shot biodegradable clay cartridge, £80.00 to shoot a 100 clays.
it’s historically been the mix of clay cartridges, pigeon cartridges and game cartridges that has sustained or contributed to the prices of each type, lose any one revenue stream and it has consequences.

Edited November 3, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

You still can; I think he was referring to S1 firearms, although I’m not sure you can’t still do that. We do. 

Ah yes S1 - sorry missed that. My misunderstanding. 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

lots of legislation is passed without the nation being offered a vote.
We look like we are just rolling over and encouraging a lead ban on poor science, blimey smoking is more of a health issue than lead in food yet nobody suggests a total ban on smoking.

As Scully says it is section 1 home office approved clubs, as I understand it they can only have so many open days a year,  must notify the police in advance and provide the personal details of the people attending.

Yes sorry for miss understanding that one. 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

indeed for game shooting, but however this is a pigeon shooting forum, will 60p a cartridge be appropriate for crop protection? Then clay pigeon shooting, lots of grounds are fibre wads only, and clay cartridges are what keep the manufactures in business. Could realistically be looking at 40p plus per clay and 40p plus for a steel shot biodegradable clay cartridge, £80.00 to shoot a 100 clays.
it’s historically been the mix of clay cartridges, pigeon cartridges and game cartridges that has sustained or contributed to the prices of each type, lose any one revenue stream and it has consequences.

Not entirely a pigeon shooting forum these days - is it?

Never the less, I am in agreement with the points you make. My comments above: “However, it is extremely important that those who don’t shoot driven, aren’t excluded by silly cart’ prices.”

Lets just keep our fingers crossed that market forces (competition) bring the steel cart’ prices down, if or when the market becomes dominated by steel shot….?!

 

[Newbie to this]

36 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Lets just keep our fingers crossed that market forces (competition) bring the steel cart’ prices down, if or when the market becomes dominated by steel shot….?!

Let's keep our fingers crossed, that this emotive, anti-shooting, non fact based Lead ban doesn't come to fruition. Even though it was lead by our own shooting orgs.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Newbie to this

[Fellside]

18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Let's keep our fingers crossed, that this emotive, anti-shooting, non fact based Lead ban doesn't come to fruition. Even though it was lead by our own shooting orgs.

Yes let’s hope!!!

[Gas seal]

Yes it’s a pigeon shooting forum and a cartridge forum discussing steel and lead cartridges, and it’s very interesting. I don’t think cartridge manufacturers would make non lead cartridges with bio wads because shooting organisations want lead to be made illegal. The new cartridge factory in Spain making bio cartridges must know something we don’t. Not using lead pellets is nothing new , in this country and other countries. If the shooting organisations are looking for exemptions for the.410 they could try to estimate how many are used in the country and when suitable commercial cartridges will be available for them. There has always been people against shooting and always will be .

[Fellside]

9 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Yes it’s a pigeon shooting forum and a cartridge forum discussing steel and lead cartridges, and it’s very interesting. I don’t think cartridge manufacturers would make non lead cartridges with bio wads because shooting organisations want lead to be made illegal. The new cartridge factory in Spain making bio cartridges must know something we don’t. Not using lead pellets is nothing new , in this country and other countries. If the shooting organisations are looking for exemptions for the.410 they could try to estimate how many are used in the country and when suitable commercial cartridges will be available for them. There has always been people against shooting and always will be .

We need a ‘derogation’ for the 410.

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Fellside said:

We need a ‘derogation’ for the 410.

And the 28 bore

maybe possible to get a viable load for the 16 bore 

along with air rifle and 22rimfire 

 

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 hours ago, Fellside said:

We need a ‘derogation’ for the 410.

 

57 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And the 28 bore

maybe possible to get a viable load for the 16 bore 

along with air rifle and 22rimfire 

Pigs might fly first!   

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

 

Pigs might fly first!   

If a restriction in lead shot use is based on a percentage reduction - that could well leave room for the non ‘mass market’ small bores. It just depends how it all works through. It is very early days yet. Different countries have approached this in their own various ways. How will the UK respond….? Does anyone really know yet….?!