Shared will and testament ???

[JKD]

A question please about the title if anyone can help. Not specifics, just general advice.

Brief story,,,,

Parents in their 80's+, Mum died April 2019, both parents apparently made a joint will, something I've never heard of. D (now 90) is now poorly and in a nursing home. He made his own will early 2020 which basically negates my Mum's wishes, and has been spending their own joint inheritances on trash, like it's going out of fashion.

Is his action regarding the wills legal ?

PM info if preferred, and thanks in advance for any help.

[jall25]

You need a solicitor and quickly 

regards and best wishes

[enfieldspares]

I found this one of the best explanations:

https://www.simpsonmillar.co.uk/media/wills-trusts/is-making-a-joint-will-a-good-idea/

[Walker570]

He can make a new will now his wife is dead and the previous one is null and void is my understanding unless he wishes to let the current will run.

You really do need to see a solicitor quickly rather than asking us to be honest.

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, JKD said:

A question please about the title if anyone can help. Not specifics, just general advice.

Brief story,,,,

Parents in their 80's+, Mum died April 2019, both parents apparently made a joint will, something I've never heard of. D (now 90) is now poorly and in a nursing home. He made his own will early 2020 which basically negates my Mum's wishes, and has been spending their own joint inheritances on trash, like it's going out of fashion.

Is his action regarding the wills legal ?

PM info if preferred, and thanks in advance for any help.

 

These sort of topics are pointless without specifics, as I imagine that the devil is in the details, and without knowing exactly what was in the joint will, it is hard to see how his current actions go against it. 

He is also likely entitled to change his mind about his will and do as he wishes with his money. 

When you say "their own joint inheritances" ... what you are basically saying is his own money ... unless you have more detail to enlighten me otherwise. 

[JKD]

Many thanks for the replies. My first thought on being told about this was that it doesn't sound right ! The joint will apparently had details regarding joint inheritances. This was obviously divided up as per their wishes. Surely a will is a legal document ? The old joint will is not available to view, which is also ringing alarm bells with me and other family members. The new sole will is quite laughable, with the fact that the figures don't add up to the existing finances etc, also with no mention of negating the old will.

It's got my brain buzzing to be honest ☹️

Can't give any specific details on an open forum obviously, so I will seek some professional advice.

Thanks again 👍

54 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

He can make a new will now his wife is dead and the previous one is null and void is my understanding unless he wishes to let the current will run.

You really do need to see a solicitor quickly rather than asking us to be honest.

I'm meeting with other family members during this week so will discuss how to go forward, thanks.

1 hour ago, jall25 said:

You need a solicitor and quickly 

regards and best wishes

Thank you 👍

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

I found this one of the best explanations:

https://www.simpsonmillar.co.uk/media/wills-trusts/is-making-a-joint-will-a-good-idea/

Thanks 👍

[enfieldspares]

ALL wills remain available on a register as they have to be entered and recorded, by law, after the testator's death. A solicitor will tell you how to get access to it. It took me but two minutes to find my late mother's using this. The next step would have been to pay the £1.50 (yes, £1.50 or 30/- in old money) to actually "see" it.

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Edited January 3, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Munzy]

As has been said, there’s so many variables here it’s impossible to get accurate advice.

That said here’s my two cents!

My wife and I have just written wills as distinct and independent documents. That said, we discussed our wishes with each other and structured them accordingly. For instance, my wife’s will provides for me, then our children and then her blood nieces. Mine also provides for her, then our children and then for my blood nieces.

The complication comes when one of us dies since the primary beneficiary in each case is the other (if I die, she gets my estate and vice versa). So  whilst my wife has made a provision for other family members, they only get it if I am already dead; the same the other way around. It is taken on trust that should one of us die, the other will update their own will to make a provision for the loved-ones from the other side of the family.

In your case perhaps the same was done - Your mum and dad made a will which provided for various family members but in the same tiered fashion so that first it goes to your dad, if he’s not around to you and your siblings, if you’re not around to your children etc. In this waterfall structure, which is very common, as soon as your mum passed and the estate went to your dad he is free to write his own will and completely reverse the wishes held in the original will.

The key here will be whether, as part of the original will, your dad was meant to inherit everything in the first tranche of provisions. If the estate should in fact have been distributed to other parties in 2019 and wasn’t then this needs to be addressed. If, however, the original will passed the full estate to your dad then he can do as he wishes now.

That’s my understanding but to reiterate, you need to sit down with a solicitor and you will definitely need access to that original will.

Sorry for your loss and the situation you now have to deal with.

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

I found this one of the best explanations:

https://www.simpsonmillar.co.uk/media/wills-trusts/is-making-a-joint-will-a-good-idea/

 

What is a Joint Will?

A Joint Will is a Single Will that applies to two or more people, usually husband and wife. The Will normally states that when one person dies, all the property will go to the other spouse. When the remaining spouse dies, the property will then be distributed according to what both parties to the Will agreed.

For this to be valid, both parties must have expressly agreed that the Will could not be taken back or changed at a later date.

Advantages of a Joint Will

The provisions in the Will aren't able to be changed without consent from both parties. Some people hope to take advantage of this fact as it means that when one person dies, the remaining person can't change their mind as to how they would like to leave the property.

For example, if the remaining party to the Will forms a new relationship and now hopes to leave all the property to their new stepchild, they won't be able to do this.

11 minutes ago, Munzy said:

As has been said, there’s so many variables here it’s impossible to get accurate advice.

That said here’s my two cents!

My wife and I have just written wills as distinct and independent documents. That said, we discussed our wishes with each other and structured them accordingly. For instance, my wife’s will provides for me, then our children and then her blood nieces. Mine also provides for her, then our children and then for my blood nieces.

The complication comes when one of us dies since the primary beneficiary in each case is the other (if I die, she gets my estate and vice versa). So  whilst my wife has made a provision for other family members, they only get it if I am already dead; the same the other way around. It is taken on trust that should one of us die, the other will update their own will to make a provision for the loved-ones from the other side of the family.

In your case perhaps the same was done - Your mum and dad made a will which provided for various family members but in the same tiered fashion so that first it goes to your dad, if he’s not around to you and your siblings, if you’re not around to your children etc. In this waterfall structure, which is very common, as soon as your mum passed and the estate went to your dad he is free to write his own will and completely reverse the wishes held in the original will.

The key here will be whether, as part of the original will, your dad was meant to inherit everything in the first tranche of provisions. If the estate should in fact have been distributed to other parties in 2019 and wasn’t then this needs to be addressed. If, however, the original will passed the full estate to your dad then he can do as he wishes now.

That’s my understanding but to reiterate, you need to sit down with a solicitor and you will definitely need access to that original will.

Sorry for your loss and the situation you now have to deal with.

 

The above link, if legally correct and valid, appears to state that once entered into a joint will, either party is unable to ammend the will without the other parties permission.

As the OP's mum has (sadly) passed, it should mean (if correct, and legally valid), that his father is not able to change the original content of the joint will, and is not able to make a new will.

 

If his father is in a nursing home, you would have to question where he got the idea to make a new will, how he managed the logistics of arranging to make a new will, and what exactly he changed from his original wishes ...all whilst most likely either physically and/or mentally incapacitaded enough to required 24/7 nursing care. 

 

Quite obviously ... something fishy is going on. 

[JKD]

6 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

ALL wills remain available on a register as they have to be entered and recorded, by law, after the testator's death. A solicitor will tell you how to get access to it. It took me but two minutes to find my late mother's using this. The next step would have been to pay the £1.50 (yes, £1.50 or 30/- in old money) to actually "see" it.

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Thank you enfieldspares, like I said, I'm meeting up with some family members this week so will find out if her will is easily available,,,, if not your link will help, cheers.

6 hours ago, Munzy said:

As has been said, there’s so many variables here it’s impossible to get accurate advice.

That said here’s my two cents!

My wife and I have just written wills as distinct and independent documents. That said, we discussed our wishes with each other and structured them accordingly. For instance, my wife’s will provides for me, then our children and then her blood nieces. Mine also provides for her, then our children and then for my blood nieces.

The complication comes when one of us dies since the primary beneficiary in each case is the other (if I die, she gets my estate and vice versa). So  whilst my wife has made a provision for other family members, they only get it if I am already dead; the same the other way around. It is taken on trust that should one of us die, the other will update their own will to make a provision for the loved-ones from the other side of the family.

In your case perhaps the same was done - Your mum and dad made a will which provided for various family members but in the same tiered fashion so that first it goes to your dad, if he’s not around to you and your siblings, if you’re not around to your children etc. In this waterfall structure, which is very common, as soon as your mum passed and the estate went to your dad he is free to write his own will and completely reverse the wishes held in the original will.

The key here will be whether, as part of the original will, your dad was meant to inherit everything in the first tranche of provisions. If the estate should in fact have been distributed to other parties in 2019 and wasn’t then this needs to be addressed. If, however, the original will passed the full estate to your dad then he can do as he wishes now.

That’s my understanding but to reiterate, you need to sit down with a solicitor and you will definitely need access to that original will.

Sorry for your loss and the situation you now have to deal with.

Thank you Munzy for taking the time to reply with such helpful detail. And thanks for your last sentiment,,,, it's going to get messy for sure !!!

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

What is a Joint Will?

A Joint Will is a Single Will that applies to two or more people, usually husband and wife. The Will normally states that when one person dies, all the property will go to the other spouse. When the remaining spouse dies, the property will then be distributed according to what both parties to the Will agreed.

For this to be valid, both parties must have expressly agreed that the Will could not be taken back or changed at a later date.

Advantages of a Joint Will

The provisions in the Will aren't able to be changed without consent from both parties. Some people hope to take advantage of this fact as it means that when one person dies, the remaining person can't change their mind as to how they would like to leave the property.

For example, if the remaining party to the Will forms a new relationship and now hopes to leave all the property to their new stepchild, they won't be able to do this.

 

The above link, if legally correct and valid, appears to state that once entered into a joint will, either party is unable to ammend the will without the other parties permission.

As the OP's mum has (sadly) passed, it should mean (if correct, and legally valid), that his father is not able to change the original content of the joint will, and is not able to make a new will.

 

If his father is in a nursing home, you would have to question where he got the idea to make a new will, how he managed the logistics of arranging to make a new will, and what exactly he changed from his original wishes ...all whilst most likely either physically and/or mentally incapacitaded enough to required 24/7 nursing care. 

 

Quite obviously ... something fishy is going on. 

Thanks Lloyd90, appreciate your help.

He made his own will early 2020 while still at home. He's only just gone into a nursing home due to mobility issues. He's a bitter, twisted man who no-one has liked through his whole life,,,, including our Mum we suspect.

The immediate family are fragmented and have their own life issues which will cause major ongoing problems with this situation. I'm quite lucky, having never been married and have no children, so it's not affecting me as much, but it is doing my head in.

 

Many thanks for everyone's help, exactly what I was after,,,, some guidance and PW knowledge 👍👍👍

[Rim Fire]

My wife's aunt and uncle had joint will the aunt died and her uncle changed the will at a later date and it stood 

and me and my wife got joint wills 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I can understand the complications of this post, as Lloyd mentioned I would consider what is going on in your father's nursing home 🤔, 

[JKD]

56 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I can understand the complications of this post, as Lloyd mentioned I would consider what is going on in your father's nursing home 🤔, 

This has nothing to do with the situation, other than because he went in there (very recently) this has come to light. If he had just died things would have been more straightforward. For example,,,, my sister (just younger than me) 'popped round' to see him at home before Xmas and he opened his safe and told her to take all our Mum's jewellery. She did this without any thoughts of her actions and,,,, she took everything else that was in there !!! None of us know what she actually took. This was totally against our Mum's wishes (written in her part of the original will) as it was known by some that her jewellery was to be shared between my two sisters and other family members.  This can now not happen. This was to be done after their death's, as stipulated in the new will. He is still alive !!!

I'm actually not interested in any money or other belongings, but would have liked something small that belonged to my Mum for sentimental reasons.

I can't give any more details, but other items have been taken (by that one sister and our other younger brother) that they have no business or right to take. Like I said, it's going to get messy.

I must say thanks though for all your help and concerns 👍

[Mungler]

Go and see a solicitor asap and go and see a wills, trusts and probate specialist (ideally with a litigation department that has experience in this arena). 

There’s a lot of misinformation on this thread. 

Mutual Will? Mirror Will? Was a trust created by intention or accidentally? It’s a long list of questions. I’d also prepare by writing to the solicitors who prepared the deceased parent’s Will to ensure the file is preserved.
.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Mungler

[JKD]

33 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Go and see a solicitor asap and go and see a wills, trusts and probate specialist (ideally with a litigation department that has experience in this arena). 

There’s a lot of misinformation on this thread. 

Mutual Will? Mirror Will? Was a trust created by intention or accidentally? It’s a long list of questions. I’d also prepare by writing to the solicitors who prepared the deceased parent’s Will to ensure the file is preserved.
.

Thanks for your input Mungler,,,, as I said previously, I'm meeting up with some family members starting tomorrow so will go through options etc with them.

[Bigbob]

Take care mate, tread slow and carefully and seek advice from a lawyer if need be .

There's nothing like a death to bring out the greed in people 

My mother in law had 3 daughters lived in a big old 3 bedroom council house , My wife asked the other 2 we could buy it chip in the expenses and mortgage payments between us wont cost that much the youngest pulled out lack of funds , The eldest a high flyer in a big well known company leave it to me i will get my lawyer on it job done . Never happened she can talk the talk or delegate but seemingly cant to the job herself the old lady died no long after that missed out on a lot of easy money .

After the funeral we had to clean out the house to hand back to the council so the 3 sisters are left to it, 2 are local the big boss stays a hour plus away  after 8 hours we went round (My son and i ) they are filling a black bag between them barely scratched the surface , My son and i emptied the living room lifted and rolled up the carpet them started bringing all the furniture and piled it into the living room contacted a guy we knew with a big trailer and he was taking the stuff to the dump the next day , leaving the smaller contents to let the 3 sisters sort threw them them we could ,Dump , keep or take them to a charity shop. 

We called it quits for the night and head for home saying see you tomorrow big sister on mega bucks and 6 credit cards stays goes threw all the rest taking anything of value including dads retirement watch ? why there's only her and 2 daughters .This we only found out the next day when she was a no show , this happened a few years ago the kids now have kids of there own but since then the sisters have never seen them or met up . there's still loads of bad feeling 

As i have said a death and money involved brings out the worst in some folk but you only got one family 

[JKD]

Cheers,,,, definitely taking care and treading carefully/cautiously.

Similar to you happened to my sister. Her husband commited suicide, and as you can imagine it was dreadful to all especially my sister and their two daughters. Anyway, his 'family', cousins and the like, descended on her within a week of the funeral demanding his belongings and some of his/their money as "they were family and she wasn't" !!! If I lived closer I'd have 'chipped in'.

Now,,,, SHE is the one being called the "vulture" !!! How things turn round quickly when, as you said, death and money are involved 🤐

[discobob]

When my Grandad died I told my mother to let his solicitors handle everything - the dividing up etc (he lived in one of these retirement complexes) - she didn't. My step-dad ended up being assaulted by my Uncle etc...Lots of bad blood yada yada yada as others have said.

Meanwhile, thanks to the above I have downloaded my Step-Dad's will - everything to my mother unless he has survived her and then to me. My Mother is currently being ripped off by a Ghanaian (she has just been there over Christmas apparently) anyway, apparently her will has been made out to SSAFA who my mother is doing unpaid case work but there is a small amount left to me - that means I can't contest the will apparently.

As my Dad was 13 years older than my Mum, having a Mirror Will was stacking the deck in her favour so she could have it all and try to control me - oh well - that's £300K gone (minimum) but I hope some is left to go to SSAFA being ex mob myself

[ph5172]

When I read threads like this I think we all know someone who has been in this situation. 
 

If you listen to just one post take note of Mungler’s and do exactly what is advised  

 

i hope everything works out for you. 

[JKD]

3 minutes ago, ph5172 said:

When I read threads like this I think we all know someone who has been in this situation. 
 

If you listen to just one post take note of Mungler’s and do exactly what is advised  

 

i hope everything works out for you. 

Thanks fella,,,, just needed to get exactly what the replies have given. I'd imagine that most only go through this once,,,, this is my once ☹️

Will be meeting up with my elder brother tomorrow to discuss things and decide how to deal with the situation.