Best 20 guage Game cartridge

[Shotkam]

10 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

My info on the gamebore black gold is that the no5 shot is 2.9 mm lead BUT once it has been plated in there shiny stuff it tends to measure around 3.2 - 3.3 mm making the shot more like a no 4 or no 3 . Meaning the pellet count is much less that you expect .no wonder the pattern fails .I moved away from them also .and now use either 7.5 or no6 . 

I tend to agree and moving away from BG for that exact reason

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

I have used a 12 all my life exclusively and 20 for last 3 years. I can't see me going back to a chunky heavier 12

'there's a message here'

For well over a century the ideal game gun has been a 12 SxS weighing around six and a half pounds and shooting around 28/30 grams of shot. 
Now most want an OU, that gun is a 20 bore weighing the same as a SxS 12 and shooting the same shot load.

[wymberley]

42 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

My info on the gamebore black gold is that the no5 shot is 2.9 mm lead BUT once it has been plated in there shiny stuff it tends to measure around 3.2 - 3.3 mm making the shot more like a no 4 or no 3 . Meaning the pellet count is much less that you expect .no wonder the pattern fails .I moved away from them also .and now use either 7.5 or no6 . 

The shot diameter from any given maker is whatever it is/was on any given day it was made. The makers say that the shot in question is 3.0mm. If we go with the 3.3 mm and plate up from the 2.9, this gives a plating thickness of 0.2 mm. I understand that with regard to shotgun pellets a better and more accurate term is, 'wash' and the thickness achieved is measured in microns - one thousandths of a mm not one tenths. Whereas I agree with a required pellet count but one which assumes that there is sufficient energy, I don't/didn't think that Black Gold is plated and certainly not to the extent described although content to be shown to be wrong

[old'un]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The shot diameter from any given maker is whatever it is/was on any given day it was made. The makers say that the shot in question is 3.0mm. If we go with the 3.3 mm and plate up from the 2.9, this gives a plating thickness of 0.2 mm. I understand that with regard to shotgun pellets a better and more accurate term is, 'wash' and the thickness achieved is measured in microns - one thousandths of a mm not one tenths. Whereas I agree with a required pellet count but one which assumes that there is sufficient energy, I don't/didn't think that Black Gold is plated and certainly not to the extent described although content to be shown to be wrong

You are correct, it is only a copper wash and not plating in the true sense of the word and is measured in microns.

Talking about coating shot, in 1966 there was a patent taken out in the USA for plastic coated steel shot for use in shotguns, I wonder what ever happened to that idea?

there you go...https://patents.google.com/patent/US3363561A/en

Edited January 10, 2023 by old'un

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, old'un said:

You are correct, it is only a copper wash and not plating in the true sense of the word and is measured in microns.

Talking about coating shot, in 1966 there was a patent taken out in the USA for plastic coated steel shot for use in shotguns, I wonder what ever happened to that idea?

there you go...https://patents.google.com/patent/US3363561A/en

Best guess is that a single mono wad had many advantages.

[Ultrastu]

I may be wrong on the  thickness of any  coating but they still measure well  inexcess of 3 mm .or did last time a checked probably  around 2 years ago .

I have measured other brand (rc ) no 5 shot and found it to be 2.9 mm  or as close as.  And was really surprised at how big the black gold diamond shot was  .just been on the gb.web site 

English no5 should be 2.8 mm they quote there diamond shot as 3 mm and there no 4.5 as 3.1 mm 

That's a BIG difference in pellet count from 2.3 mm no 7.5 

I think the key to these heavy cartridges  is a tight choke through a gun that WILL shoot a good pattern- to get any decent range- 40 plus yds ? 

 

[Jimbo yorks]

I was shooting the 30 gram 5s through 1/2 and 3/4. Found the 3/4 was blowing the pattern so stepped it back and started getting propper kills again with 1/2 and 1/2

[neutron619]

15 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

I may be wrong on the  thickness of any  coating but they still measure well  inexcess of 3 mm .or did last time a checked probably  around 2 years ago .

I have measured other brand (rc ) no 5 shot and found it to be 2.9 mm  or as close as.  And was really surprised at how big the black gold diamond shot was  .just been on the gb.web site 

English no5 should be 2.8 mm they quote there diamond shot as 3 mm and there no 4.5 as 3.1 mm 

That's a BIG difference in pellet count from 2.3 mm no 7.5 

I think the key to these heavy cartridges  is a tight choke through a gun that WILL shoot a good pattern- to get any decent range- 40 plus yds ? 

 

Given that last I heard, Gamebore is owned by Kent (American) and obtains its components from European suppliers (e.g. Maxam is Spanish; not sure whose wads they use), there's a pretty good chance that economies of scale mean that these are American / Continental shot sizes as well.

I have also been under the impression - perhaps wrongly - that their Diamond shot is called that not because it's polished (ergo shiny), but because it has very high antimony content and is rather hard. I have a vague recollection that cookoff once told me that no-one drops high-antimony shot in this country - even Gamebore with their shot tower - and that it has to be imported, which if correct, increases the likelihood that you're looking at continental #5s rather than English #5s.

I'm reasonably sure that it isn't coated / washed, however.

Edited January 11, 2023 by neutron619

[Fellside]

Even if not plated or ‘washed’, there just aren’t enough so called 5 (3mm) pellets in the ounce for rangy stuff. They are almost a UK 4 really - the shot count is similar to a 410 3” magnum number 6.

Incidentally, it would be good for UK cart’ suppliers to use UK pellet sizing…..for their UK market….!
 

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Even if not plated or ‘washed’, there just aren’t enough so called 5 (3mm) pellets in the ounce for rangy stuff. They are almost a UK 4 really - the shot count is similar to a 410 3” magnum number 6.

Incidentally, it would be good for UK cart’ suppliers to use UK pellet sizing…..for their UK market….!
 

 Right on both counts. 

Unfortunately, for whatever reason the UK shooters who by and large understand this have no representative body prepared to make those cases on their behalf.

Those wishing to maintain the current status quo are the big money groups  so individually or in small numbers those who do understand that using those types of loads are flying in the face of simple physics have no chance of being heard.

Rant over.

[Fellside]

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

 Right on both counts. 

Unfortunately, for whatever reason the UK shooters who by and large understand this have no representative body prepared to make those cases on their behalf.

Those wishing to maintain the current status quo are the big money groups  so individually or in small numbers those who do understand that using those types of loads are flying in the face of simple physics have no chance of being heard.

Rant over.

Good rant though wymberley… 😁

I think while you and I (and I’m sure some others) know about the shot sizing shenanigans, some people are caught out. I know some people who are quite convinced that because a number ‘5’ is stamped on the packaging and cart’ - it must therefore be a true UK 5…..?Why wouldn’t it be? I’ve even had gun shop staff tell me that’s the case. 

[neutron619]

7 minutes ago, wymberley said:

 Right on both counts. 

Unfortunately, for whatever reason the UK shooters who by and large understand this have no representative body prepared to make those cases on their behalf.

Those wishing to maintain the current status quo are the big money groups  so individually or in small numbers those who do understand that using those types of loads are flying in the face of simple physics have no chance of being heard.

Rant over.

I apologize for pushing this further off-topic, but it's happening just the same with the new steel cartridges.

The manufacturers seem to get halfway with their logic, reconizing that lower density shot needs bigger cases but then screw it up by putting the shot size up as well. Gamebore are now selling a 36g steel game load in a 3" case with shot sizes of #1, #2 and #3! It used to be the case that #1 steel was considered a goose load - but now we're supposed to fire it at pheasant and partridge!? I thought the advice was to go up 2 shot sizes, not 6...

As I have said elsewhere, you'd make a far more useful cartridge if you filled that case with steel #4 than anything bigger. If you want to match the pellet count of a 28g lead #6 cartridge, you need 40g of steel #4(!). So steel is already at a disadvantage as far as pattern density goes, although we might reasonably expect it to pattern tighter and get away with a smaller number of pellets. But then changing that to a #3, #2 or #1? You're taking a cartridge probably already biased in favour of energy over pattern and increasing that bias.

If an ounce of lead #7 will do for pheasant, pigeon and partridge at reasonable ranges then we should be looking at how to replicate that performance in steel and that means 32-36g of steel #5's or #4s - in a 3" case, if necessary - not these willy-waving "high bird" cartridges better suited to geese whose performance on smaller birds relies more on luck than sensible preparation.

I recall Scully saying recently he'd witnessed people using 24g/#4 steel in 20 bores for some good birds this year and I'm inclined to believe him. Bigger shot won't add anything to that.

[wymberley]

Oh!

Lyalvale Express Supreme Game 7s. But not for high pheasant. 25 grams come in at what would be c7&1/4 shot - 375/oz for normal range decoying and 28 grams pretty much to size for stretching a bit and both having the same pellet count.

[Fellside]

40 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Oh!

Lyalvale Express Supreme Game 7s. But not for high pheasant. 25 grams come in at what would be c7&1/4 shot - 375/oz for normal range decoying and 28 grams pretty much to size for stretching a bit and both having the same pellet count.

That’s pretty much what I use for decoying these days, although a different brand - Fiocchi actually. Some of these Italian jobs are stamped 7 1/2 but are 2.4 mm, so UK 7. Usefully they have the pellet diameter on the box - unlike the British loaders. They’re quite quick and brilliant for pigeons. Mine are 24 gram 12 bore. I can shoot them all day long and don’t notice the recoil. 

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Ounce of lead #7 will do for pheasant, pigeon and partridge at reasonable ranges

Mallard, gadwall and Teal haven't complained about them either... Gamebore White Gold 7.5 (343 pellets per Oz) been knocking them down all season without any issue.

[neutron619]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Oh!

Lyalvale Express Supreme Game 7s. But not for high pheasant. 25 grams come in at what would be c7&1/4 shot - 375/oz for normal range decoying and 28 grams pretty much to size for stretching a bit and both having the same pellet count.

OK - I should probably have used #6 rather than #7 for an example. I agree you'll never get close to 375/oz with steel and still retain enough energy for all normal ranges. But still - the point stands. If most of the shots most of us take would be fine with an ounce of lead #6, we should probably be aiming to get the same kind of pattern density with it's "equivalent" of steel #4. That means starting with 270-odd pellets in the cartridge and compensating with more shot, larger case or less choke as required to match the performance of the lead cartridge.

Edited January 11, 2023 by neutron619

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, neutron619 said:

OK - I should probably have used #6 rather than #7 for an example. I agree you'll never get close to 375/oz with steel and still retain enough energy for all normal ranges. But still - the point stands. If most of the shots most of us take would be fine with an ounce of lead #6, we should probably be aiming to get the same kind of pattern density with it's "equivalent" of steel #4. That means starting with 270-odd pellets in the cartridge and compensating with more shot, larger case or less choke as required to match the performance of the lead cartridge.

Hi, my post which you quoted was unconnected to yours other than the fact that it made me realise that I’d not actually replied to the OP. I do agree with your comments.

[rbrowning2]

5 hours ago, Fellside said:

Incidentally, it would be good for UK cart’ suppliers to use UK pellet sizing…..for their UK market….!
 

Difficult as U.k. manufactures buy their shot from the EU, except gamebore. May be all manufactures should only list shot size in metric mm so we actually know what we are buying and hence using.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Difficult as U.k. manufactures buy their shot from the EU, except gamebore. May be all manufactures should only list shot size in metric mm so we actually know what we are buying and hence using.

 

Yes most from abroad. Don’t know why they can’t print the UK equivalent size on cart’s and packaging however. For example a continental 7 1/2 (2.4mm) becomes a 7 when loaded in the UK and if an imported 6 is 2.7mm the cart’ is stamped 5 1/2 …..etc, etc. 

My pet theory is that they want their cartridges to appear to have more ‘umph’ than expected….the pellets being larger than stated….perhaps…?!

As you say - I think the metric sizes would help. I’ve noticed Fiocchi do this. 

[Lloyd90]

I’m on a driven day at Ammerdown tomorrow, I can either use the AYA choked imp Cyl and light mod with Hull Pheasant Xtreme 32g 6’s or BG 5’s 

 

OR 

 

I can use the silver pigeon 20 bore with 28/30g 5’s / 6’s but it’s multi choked so can tighten the chokes up 🤔

 

Thinking I’ll just shoot the SxS …

[Fellside]

5 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’m on a driven day at Ammerdown tomorrow, I can either use the AYA choked imp Cyl and light mod with Hull Pheasant Xtreme 32g 6’s or BG 5’s 

 

OR 

 

I can use the silver pigeon 20 bore with 28/30g 5’s / 6’s but it’s multi choked so can tighten the chokes up 🤔

 

Thinking I’ll just shoot the SxS …

I’ve no idea where that is, but have a very pleasant day, whatever you decide upon. 

[Smudger687]

Pellet count really is only half the story, and it's worth considering the following points:

1) Larger pellets possess more mass, and therefore more inertia than a smaller pellet. This means that it is more resistant to changes in its velocity and direction than a smaller pellet. In other words, larger pellets should pattern more tightly, all else being equal. 

2) Pattern density can be increased by tightening the choke. Particularly as we are talking about lead shot in this thread, there is essentially no restriction on choke constriction. Even if a cartridge has relatively few pellets in it, if those pellets stay together for longer downrange, it's still a killing pattern. 

A 32g 5 lead load (2.8mm, nominal 11.34 grams per cubic centimetre density) has around 246 pellets in it. As antimony percent increases, you can expect the actual pellet count in these cartridges to increase further. How many more pellets do you need? To put this into perspective, this is about 22 more pellets than are in gamebore's 3.5 inch mammoth steel 42g 3 cartridge.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Smudger687
Whitespace deletion

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

Pellet count really is only half the story, and it's worth considering the following points:

1) Larger pellets possess more mass, and therefore more inertia than a smaller pellet. This means that it is more resistant to changes in its velocity and direction than a smaller pellet. In other words, larger pellets should pattern more tightly, all else being equal. 

2) Pattern density can be increased by tightening the choke. Particularly as we are talking about lead shot in this thread, there is essentially no restriction on choke constriction. Even if a cartridge has relatively few pellets in it, if those pellets stay together for longer downrange, it's still a killing pattern. 

A 32g 5 lead load (2.8mm, nominal 11.34 grams per cubic centimetre density) has around 246 pellets in it. As antimony percent increases, you can expect the actual pellet count in these cartridges to increase further. How many more pellets do you need? To put this into perspective, this is about 22 more pellets than are in gamebore's 3.5 inch mammoth steel 42g 3 cartridge.

All good points. The original discussion was about the limiting number of continental 5s (Approx UK 4s) in a 20 bore ounce load. The laws of physics are against us with only about 170 pellets - about the same as a 410 3” number 6. There just aren’t enough shot for the tall stuff. If you use excessive choke you will only tighten the pattern core and make average birds more difficult to hit. The solution arrived at by one member above is to use continental 6s, about a 5 1/2. Seems reasonable. 

P.S You ask ‘how many more pellets do I need?’ Answer: none. Your suggested load is exactly what I use in my 12 bore……🙂

[Fargo]

Hull high pheasant 25g 6 is one of the

nicest loads you can use.

Remember a 32/5 is a high bird cartridge really not for average birds 15-30 yards.

[London Best]

I never use more than 25 grams through a 20 bore.