Retailers, knives, Royal Mail and the law?

[chrisjpainter]

I've not been able to find a concrete answer online, so I thought I'd turn to the other almighty force for knowledge. Pigeonwatch

What are the restrictions placed on retailers by Royal Mail for the sale of knives? The reason why I ask is that in the last few days I've ordered three knives from different stores. One of which at no point asked for any prof of age. I didn't have to put one in on the site, or at payment (paypal), or when I received it. I queried it with our postie who was shocked and  rescanned it to check there wasn't any requirement for proof of age or a signature (there wasn't). 

Anyone know if the shop contravened any specific legislation or Royal Mail postage rules by failing to adequately check age? The knife in question has a 12cm blade, if that makes a difference!

[Spr1985]

I believe you have to be 18 to have PayPal, maybe that could have something to do with it? But still I’d expect some sort of age verification from the vendor 

[loriusgarrulus]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sale-of-knives-voluntary-agreement-by-retailers/sale-of-knives-voluntary-agreement-by-retailers

Some laws on here.

I know Amazon reguire photo id for proof of age on delivery of knives or alcohol.

[chrisjpainter]

5 hours ago, Spr1985 said:

I believe you have to be 18 to have PayPal, maybe that could have something to do with it? But still I’d expect some sort of age verification from the vendor 

I think you do, but when's that ever stopped a teenager from getting into a parental account. And I've just remembered, I  misled you. Paypal failed, so we had to use the same (debit) card but by entering the details. And no card reader was used, so I didn't even need to enter the pin. All I needed was the physical card in my hand!

29 minutes ago, loriusgarrulus said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sale-of-knives-voluntary-agreement-by-retailers/sale-of-knives-voluntary-agreement-by-retailers

Some laws on here.

I know Amazon reguire photo id for proof of age on delivery of knives or alcohol.

Yeah I read that, but that's a voluntary agreement and it doesn't cover any procedure Royal Mail might have as a company.I couldn't even find anything on their website. As it happens, the other two were bought on Amazon, but they've signed up to the voluntary agreement.

[loriusgarrulus]

https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/96

Found it. Has to be sent through their age verification service.

Tap "bladed items" and it gives details. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by loriusgarrulus

[chrisjpainter]

You have license to post an extra awful joke! Thank you very much, that's what I needed. The knife's got to go back, so I'm going to send a strongly worded email with it! I spend my working days as a youth worker trying to keep knives out of unwise hands, so it's a slight bugbear of mine.

[Ultrastu]

I believe  there is an age verification  process when you use  company for the first time .based on credit cards  and email etc .we leave a massive amount of personal  info all over the Internet over the years .and this verification  uses that info to confirm  your age .

So after you have been  checked out .the company will just process the oder with minimal  fuss ..

I use hennie hanes for blades etc .and the buying process  is so fast as they checked me years ago, once  (I'm not getting any younger  ) 

I wouldn't be surprised if these types of companies  share your info .(big brother is watching you ) 

[chrisjpainter]

15 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I believe  there is an age verification  process when you use  company for the first time .based on credit cards  and email etc .we leave a massive amount of personal  info all over the Internet over the years .and this verification  uses that info to confirm  your age .

So after you have been  checked out .the company will just process the oder with minimal  fuss ..

I use hennie hanes for blades etc .and the buying process  is so fast as they checked me years ago, once  (I'm not getting any younger  ) 

I wouldn't be surprised if these types of companies  share your info .(big brother is watching you ) 

But how would that stop a person in the house getting hold of the card and making the order unbeknown to the parent? I've just read the laws on what would constitute a defence if a knife was sold to an under 18 inadvertently and none of the articles mentioned in that were done.

[12gauge82]

Would it really stop a knife falling into the hands of a child? 

If someones going to do harm with a knife and they can't order one out of a catalogue, surely they'll just get one out of their kitchen draw at home? 

I think we're turning into a nanny state. 

[39TDS]

There is nothing wrong with knives and there is nothing wrong with anybody of any age owning or having a knife.

Of course you wouldn't give one to a small child as they are likely to cut themselves but other than that they are fine.

I have had knives since I was about 6 IIRC, we used to go and buy them from the local chemist/toy shop with our pocket money and unaccompanied at that. I have never stabbed anyone, threatened to stab anyone or even felt the urge to do so.

Rather than banning knives or demonising them as they have done they should be educating why it is wrong to stab people. I think it is a terrible shame how all knives are now seen as the work of the devil as they very clearly are not where the problem lies.

[CharlieT]

You appear to be looking for flaws when, in practical terms, they do not exist. We can all dream up hypothetical illegal scenarios where people may try to circumvent the law.  

However, doing so is an offense. The only sure fired way to stop  knives falling into the wrong hands by the methods you describe is a complete ban on sales other than face to face with ID.

Perhaps you should start lobbying your MP and Police and Crime Commissioner to do so. And while you're at it, perhaps you should include banning the home storage of firearms just in case some child opens his father's gun cabinet with the family angle grinder..................the list goes on.

[manthing]

Shops may check the Electoral Register for proof of age. 

The open version is available to all but I took us off the open version and we get no junk mail. Did cause issues when I tried to order a knife from Woodlore, but we got there in the end.

[old man]

6 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

You have license to post an extra awful joke! Thank you very much, that's what I needed. The knife's got to go back, so I'm going to send a strongly worded email with it! I spend my working days as a youth worker trying to keep knives out of unwise hands, so it's a slight bugbear of mine.

With the greatest of respect you may be looking a bit too hard?

it's not the knives but the little **** wielding them?

Most of us oldies were given the responsibility of knife ownership very early on. Personally 7 yrs of age.

1 hour ago, 39TDS said:

There is nothing wrong with knives and there is nothing wrong with anybody of any age owning or having a knife.

Of course you wouldn't give one to a small child as they are likely to cut themselves but other than that they are fine.

I have had knives since I was about 6 IIRC, we used to go and buy them from the local chemist/toy shop with our pocket money and unaccompanied at that. I have never stabbed anyone, threatened to stab anyone or even felt the urge to do so.

Rather than banning knives or demonising them as they have done they should be educating why it is wrong to stab people. I think it is a terrible shame how all knives are now seen as the work of the devil as they very clearly are not where the problem lies.

Exactly so?

[chrisjpainter]

4 hours ago, CharlieT said:

You appear to be looking for flaws when, in practical terms, they do not exist. We can all dream up hypothetical illegal scenarios where people may try to circumvent the law.  

However, doing so is an offense. The only sure fired way to stop  knives falling into the wrong hands by the methods you describe is a complete ban on sales other than face to face with ID.

Perhaps you should start lobbying your MP and Police and Crime Commissioner to do so. And while you're at it, perhaps you should include banning the home storage of firearms just in case some child opens his father's gun cabinet with the family angle grinder..................the list goes on.

It's not about whether the law is practical in any way shape or form. It's about whether the company did all that can be expected to under the circumstances. The law that covers sale of dangerous/offensive weapons list some several specific criteria that would exonerate a company if they inadvertently sold a knife to someone under 18. The things I've mentioned aren't what I expect from a company, it's what the law would expect in the instance of an illegal sale. Practically, they're no guarantee of course, but when a company misses every single one, then it's worth asking questions. 

 

3 hours ago, old man said:

With the greatest of respect you may be looking a bit too hard?

it's not the knives but the little **** wielding them?

Most of us oldies were given the responsibility of knife ownership very early on. Personally 7 yrs of age.

Exactly so?

When you work with them you get to know the ones that are little **** and the ones that aren't. There are plenty in the latter group who are just plain scared and unsure what to do about it. So they carry a knife without thinking about the consequences - because they're 12.  Or they do it because they want the little **** to like them a bit more, or lay off them a bit more, but haven't thought about the consequences - because they're 12.

Anyways, thanks to Lorius I have the answer about Royal Mail.

Edited January 21, 2023 by chrisjpainter

[12gauge82]

30 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

It's not about whether the law is practical in any way shape or form. It's about whether the company did all that can be expected to under the circumstances. The law that covers sale of dangerous/offensive weapons list some several specific criteria that would exonerate a company if they inadvertently sold a knife to someone under 18. The things I've mentioned aren't what I expect from a company, it's what the law would expect in the instance of an illegal sale. Practically, they're no guarantee of course, but when a company misses every single one, then it's worth asking questions. 

 

 

Totally missing the point imo. What's the point to a law if it has no practical effect in stopping the criminal activity the law was made for in the first place? 

[chrisjpainter]

26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Totally missing the point imo. What's the point to a law if it has no practical effect in stopping the criminal activity the law was made for in the first place? 

I'm not missing the point...it's my own thread! at no point did I make judgement on the effectiveness of the law. My point was there are specific things put into the law to prove reasonable avoidance of selling to Under 18's. This company failed to do any of them. That's a matter of fact. 

I also asked for information about Royal Mail's requirements and the specific things that the company would have had to dodge in order to send it through the post, which I've also got. 

As I've said, there's no guarantee that the law could do anything. It isn't fit for purpose...but that was never the point of the thread. 

[Jim Neal]

I recently ordered a 6" boning knife and 12" steak knife from an online butchery store.  No ID check and the package was left in my "safe place" which is completely accessible by anyone walking down the street who takes two steps onto my driveway!

[chrisjpainter]

10 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

I recently ordered a 6" boning knife and 12" steak knife from an online butchery store.  No ID check and the package was left in my "safe place" which is completely accessible by anyone walking down the street who takes two steps onto my driveway!

Oops! As it happens they've apologised profusely....mixed up postal requirements or somesuch. I expect someone probably had to prove their age to buy a casserole dish, which will have confused them. 

 

[12gauge82]

54 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

I'm not missing the point...it's my own thread! at no point did I make judgement on the effectiveness of the law. My point was there are specific things put into the law to prove reasonable avoidance of selling to Under 18's. This company failed to do any of them. That's a matter of fact. 

I also asked for information about Royal Mail's requirements and the specific things that the company would have had to dodge in order to send it through the post, which I've also got. 

As I've said, there's no guarantee that the law could do anything. It isn't fit for purpose...but that was never the point of the thread. 

So your making a fuss about it for what purpose, to prove a point of law? 

[chrisjpainter]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So your making a fuss about it for what purpose, to prove a point of law? 

I asked two questions:

 What are the restrictions placed on retailers by Royal Mail for the sale of knives?

'Anyone know if the shop contravened any specific legislation or Royal Mail postage rules by failing to adequately check age?' 

Lorius answered the first. I found the answer to the second, but made no judgement (or fuss) as to the effectiveness of that legislation. The fuss came from others asking questions like 'Would it really stop a knife falling into the hands of a child?' Which wasn't really anything to do with the original question, more taking it off in an unnecessary direction. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

I asked two questions:

 What are the restrictions placed on retailers by Royal Mail for the sale of knives?

'Anyone know if the shop contravened any specific legislation or Royal Mail postage rules by failing to adequately check age?' 

Lorius answered the first. I found the answer to the second, but made no judgement (or fuss) as to the effectiveness of that legislation. The fuss came from others asking questions like 'Would it really stop a knife falling into the hands of a child?' Which wasn't really anything to do with the original question, more taking it off in an unnecessary direction. 

Fair enough, just my curiosity and a genuine wonderment if I'd missed something.

Threads usually take slight turns from the exact question that's asked and to be fair your thread title is "retailers, knives, royal mail and the law", so I don't believe I went that far off. Either way I meant no offence and was interested in your thoughts 👍

[old man]

Isn't the age of criminal responsibility now 10 years of age?

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, old man said:

Isn't the age of criminal responsibility now 10 years of age?

In England and Wales yes and I believe Scotland is 12.

[wisdom]

On 21/01/2023 at 13:24, 39TDS said:

There is nothing wrong with knives and there is nothing wrong with anybody of any age owning or having a knife.

Of course you wouldn't give one to a small child as they are likely to cut themselves but other than that they are fine.

I have had knives since I was about 6 IIRC, we used to go and buy them from the local chemist/toy shop with our pocket money and unaccompanied at that. I have never stabbed anyone, threatened to stab anyone or even felt the urge to do so.

Rather than banning knives or demonising them as they have done they should be educating why it is wrong to stab people. I think it is a terrible shame how all knives are now seen as the work of the devil as they very clearly are not where the problem lies.

Bang on with that.I have done exactly the same bought my first from a hardware shop and a sheath knife when i went from cubs to scouts.and still carry a small legal folder every day.Its a tool and I use it a lot.

The kitchen knives are way more dangerous than any I have carried.

[Bobba]

On 21/01/2023 at 07:22, loriusgarrulus said:

I know Amazon reguire photo id for proof of age on delivery of knives or alcohol.

True indeed. However……..I’d ordered a bottle Calvados. The young Amazon driver looked at this 79 yr old codger and when asked “would you like to see my driving licence?” He roared with laughter and said “ No, just year of birth” (cheeky sod). So, there is a system in place but the deficiency was that I wasn’t asked to identify that it was my name on the packet.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Bobba