Digital ID's - are the government doing enough to inform people

[discobob]

Hi,

I like to put up a question for the week now to add to the Forum and this week it is on Digital ID's

The Government, on the 1st January quietly slipped out a consultation onto their website running until the end of March for Digital ID's and have a questionnaire to be filled in. I won't go into the fact that the questions are heavily weighted in their composition.

However, as it is such a large impact which will more than likely mean that everyone in the UK will have to have an ID to access government (and council services) and will be rolled into the digital currency that they are on about introducing and will more than likely end up in an orwellian nightmare, do you find that the fact that they are not doing television and radio campaigns about it very disturbing? After all, we have campaigns telling people how to boil kettles but nothing for this - nothing on MSM or the news channels - and smacks of them trying to bring it in through the back door....

Here is the link for you to look at. If you feel the same way, please pass it around your family and friends

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/draft-legislation-to-help-more-people-prove-their-identity-online/consultation-on-draft-legislation-to-support-identity-verification

There is plenty of discussion is available via other outlets that are on YouTube

[JohnfromUK]

There was a service (can't now remember the official name - Gov.UK Verify Experian?) run by Experian for the Gov't (HMG) which I used for checking some things like NI payment record etc.  Personally, I had great difficulty in getting 'validated' because I didn't then have a current passport, and didn't have a photo driving license or most of the other things needed as 'validation checks' (bus passes, blue badge, various benefits eligibility), but I did get there in the end.  Then - I got an e mail notification that HMG were no longer going to use that service (no reason given) and I would need to get a "Government Gateway" ID.

The Government Gateway ID was easier for me to get, (but by then I had renewed my passport etc.).  It is currently used for accessing things like the Gov't Pensions Service, NI records etc.  I believe it is different to any ID you may have stored with HMG for Inland Revenue and HMRC purposes.

In principle, I am in favour of having a single secure Gov't ID that wraps up the need for all the individual 'ID' and 'numbers'; for example, I (from quick memory) have Gov't ID's in the following guises;

• Government Gateway ID No
• National Insurance No
• HMRC taxpayer ID (UTR) No
• NHS No
• Driving Licence No
• Passport(s) No(s)
• DEFRA Holding No
• RPA (Rural Payments Agency) No

These are all separate Government IDs needed to do 'normal' day to day functions and access (central) Government services.  We also all have things like birth certificates etc.  In addition most of us here will have SGC and FAC numbers.

To have this rationalised to a single number (for example - so that when I move address only one change is needed) would seem sensible.  How it is all kept secure is a different matter, but ALL of the above will hold my information already.  I have reservations about this being shared at local Gov't level as local Gov't should have no need for much of the information.

[old man]

To my poor old brain this smells of being  one step too far towards the politico wet dream of having absolute control of the population? One step switch off of everything that controls life here?

Maybe we need to be careful of what we wish for?

I certainly don't want this.

Imagine the potential revenue stream from there?  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[bluesj]

Its all getting a bit 1984!

[discobob]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

There was a service (can't now remember the official name - Gov.UK Verify Experian?) run by Experian for the Gov't (HMG) which I used for checking some things like NI payment record etc.  Personally, I had great difficulty in getting 'validated' because I didn't then have a current passport, and didn't have a photo driving license or most of the other things needed as 'validation checks' (bus passes, blue badge, various benefits eligibility), but I did get there in the end.  Then - I got an e mail notification that HMG were no longer going to use that service (no reason given) and I would need to get a "Government Gateway" ID.

The Government Gateway ID was easier for me to get, (but by then I had renewed my passport etc.).  It is currently used for accessing things like the Gov't Pensions Service, NI records etc.  I believe it is different to any ID you may have stored with HMG for Inland Revenue and HMRC purposes.

In principle, I am in favour of having a single secure Gov't ID that wraps up the need for all the individual 'ID' and 'numbers'; for example, I (from quick memory) have Gov't ID's in the following guises;

• Government Gateway ID No
• National Insurance No
• HMRC taxpayer ID (UTR) No
• NHS No
• Driving Licence No
• Passport(s) No(s)
• DEFRA Holding No
• RPA (Rural Payments Agency) No

These are all separate Government IDs needed to do 'normal' day to day functions and access (central) Government services.  We also all have things like birth certificates etc.  In addition most of us here will have SGC and FAC numbers.

To have this rationalised to a single number (for example - so that when I move address only one change is needed) would seem sensible.  How it is all kept secure is a different matter, but ALL of the above will hold my information already.  I have reservations about this being shared at local Gov't level as local Gov't should have no need for much of the information.

Having worked on Government projects (my mate done the initial design of GovGateway) I do concur that in the singular for examples you list it would be good - but only if you need to access these things. This appears to be that everyone will have a digital identity

1 hour ago, old man said:

To my poor old brain this smells of being  one step too far towards the politico wet dream of having absolute control of the population? One step switch off of everything that controls life here?

Maybe we need to be careful of what we wish for?

I certainly don't want this.

Imagine the potential revenue stream from there?  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Are you aware that the self service tills at supermarkets are already equipped with Biometrics that can identify you - I can imagine the 'sales' claptrap - you don't even need to pay - just look at the screen - and then that is all logged centrally because of the digital currency and cash won't be king and indeed you may be charged more for using cash....10% levy or something like that.

3 minutes ago, bluesj said:

Its all getting a bit 1984!

hence "Orwellian" in my original post

 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, discobob said:

you don't even need to pay

Amazon Fresh already do this, you scan in, pick up what you want and leave. It's all done with cameras, I believe. The initial scan is to associate you with your account.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Newbie to this

[Dave-G]

Methinks its an attempt to reduce the fraud that is easily accomplished by claiming to be someone other than those entitled to one vote per adult and that the correct adult is doing it, whilst also making it difficult for illegal migrants to vote for the party well known to encourage illegal immigration to bolster their voter core. 

Me being slightly dyslexic write the above to try and explain how I see it as a Tory initiative to undo some of the labour vote scams many of us suspect but can't prove.

[henry d]

2 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Me being slightly dyslexic write the above to try and explain how I see it as a Tory initiative to undo some of the labour vote scams many of us suspect but can't prove.

So if one sides supporters can do it so can another's...

[Spr1985]

The way I see it is if my Ni number is good enough Id to take my money, it should be good enough for me to access the benefits of paying those taxes should I need to. I thought the whole point of an NI number was that every single person was individually identifiable by said number 🤷‍♂️ 

if an Ni number combined with birth certificate/passport/ drivers licence doesn’t identify someone then I think we have bigger issues than bent politicians. 

[Dave-G]

57 minutes ago, henry d said:

So if one sides supporters can do it so can another's...

Agreed. 

[discobob]

55 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Methinks its an attempt to reduce the fraud that is easily accomplished by claiming to be someone other than those entitled to one vote per adult and that the correct adult is doing it, whilst also making it difficult for illegal migrants to vote for the party well known to encourage illegal immigration to bolster their voter core. 

Me being slightly dyslexic write the above to try and explain how I see it as a Tory initiative to undo some of the labour vote scams many of us suspect but can't prove.

Buuuut what if somebody hacked your Digital ID - and in so doing - your digital currency? If you could not prove who you are what do you do? Where do you go to sort it out? Do you still exist as the person you should be or does the hacker have carte blanche your identity???

 

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Amazon Fresh already do this, you scan in, pick up what you want and leave. It's all done with cameras, I believe. The initial scan is to associate you with your account.

So imagine - when this all gets pulled together - and I believe it will ( @henry d you can use your tinfoil meme now  )you go to buy something from a supermarket - do your shopping and you are not allowed to buy it because your tax/vat is late or you have said some hurty words and someone has reported you.

I had a mate fall foul of money laundering - twice - because he gets irregular but large payments from organisations and was locked out of his accounts with no explanation and no way of getting paid for the work he does. The bank wouldn't even talk to him a lot of the time...

[Dave-G]

5 minutes ago, Spr1985 said:

The way I see it is if my Ni number is good enough Id to take my money, it should be good enough for me to access the benefits of paying those taxes should I need to. I thought the whole point of an NI number was that every single person was individually identifiable by said number 🤷‍♂️ 

if an Ni number combined with birth certificate/passport/ drivers licence doesn’t identify someone then I think we have bigger issues than bent politicians. 

I think the point of this is that anyone can currently vote by declaring they are someone without having to prove it at the polling station - which I have often felt is open to abuse.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

I think the point of this is that anyone can currently vote by declaring they are someone without having to prove it at the polling station - which I have often felt is open to abuse.

That is changing in May/October see post

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Buuuut what if somebody hacked your Digital ID - and in so doing - your digital currency?

discobob - identity hi-jacking is quite common now. I trust any new system would be more secure than the chocolate fireguards employed by DWP and HMRC.

[old man]

6 hours ago, discobob said:

Having worked on Government projects (my mate done the initial design of GovGateway) I do concur that in the singular for examples you list it would be good - but only if you need to access these things. This appears to be that everyone will have a digital identity

Are you aware that the self service tills at supermarkets are already equipped with Biometrics that can identify you - I can imagine the 'sales' claptrap - you don't even need to pay - just look at the screen - and then that is all logged centrally because of the digital currency and cash won't be king and indeed you may be charged more for using cash....10% levy or something like that.

hence "Orwellian" in my original post

 

Thanks bob.  Being somewhat antsy, I will not use the self service options. I have no problem abandoning my trolley and will take my custom elsewhere probably ending up at the corner shop.

[henry d]

4 hours ago, discobob said:

Buuuut what if somebody hacked your Digital ID - and in so doing - your digital currency? If you could not prove who you are what do you do? Where do you go to sort it out? Do you still exist as the person you should be or does the hacker have carte blanche your identity???

 

So imagine - when this all gets pulled together - and I believe it will ( @henry d you can use your tinfoil meme now  )you go to buy something from a supermarket - do your shopping and you are not allowed to buy it because your tax/vat is late or you have said some hurty words and someone has reported you.

I had a mate fall foul of money laundering - twice - because he gets irregular but large payments from organisations and was locked out of his accounts with no explanation and no way of getting paid for the work he does. The bank wouldn't even talk to him a lot of the time...

You have watched "Brazil" too many times!

Just imagine the cost to set up such a system against the recouped monies?

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Methinks its an attempt to reduce the fraud that is easily accomplished by claiming to be someone other than those entitled to one vote per adult and that the correct adult is doing it, whilst also making it difficult for illegal migrants to vote for the party well known to encourage illegal immigration to bolster their voter core. 

Me being slightly dyslexic write the above to try and explain how I see it as a Tory initiative to undo some of the labour vote scams many of us suspect but can't prove.

I'm sure it goes on more on one side than the other. There are certain people who are far more likely to vote Labour than Conservatives that are far less likely to abide by the law, that loop hole is hopefully being closed to a degree soon though. 

[ehb102]

 

49 minutes ago, henry d said:

 

Just imagine the cost to set up such a system against the recouped monies?

In this day and age, politicians will do things that are economically stupid (Austerity is just the most obvious example) because of ideology. They would fall over themselves to be able to "Root out scroungers and cheats and tax dodgers", even though actually it would be incredibly unlike that. Just like now, all the big fish will slip the net. 

[discobob]

13 hours ago, henry d said:

You have watched "Brazil" too many times!

TBH I recognize the title but don't believe I have watched it but I may be wrong on that.

13 hours ago, henry d said:

Just imagine the cost to set up such a system against the recouped monies?

When has that ever stopped governments. Don't forget they run on the public's money and don't have to supply profits or value to shareholders. As for the underlying tech - not that complex or difficult to implement - an API call passing your data points and a result back - much the same as paying by card.

 

Anyway - the actual question was do you think the government have done enough to notify the public about this or not?

[Gordon R]

discobob - in short - no they haven't.

[discobob]

49 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

discobob - in short - no they haven't.

I have just used write to them to write to our MP (who has had the whip removed 😞 and it isn't Bridgen) raising my concerns about the lack of publicity of the consultation.

They have definitely taken a lesson off the Vogons in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy 

There’s no point acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display in your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now.’

[henry d]

If you stay away from youtoob, and fiction you might not get into a tizz about it. Remember you asked a question and no I don't find it disturbing that there were no radio and TV campaigns?

When I reread the op it is obvious that you have made up your mind that it is something to subjugate or control us, hence Orwell and Adams (and Brazil/Gilliam). Two years ago I was downsizing prior to moving and a trip to the recycling centre meant that sometimes I had a lengthy wait, now I am in a bigger city with the same amount of recycling centres and I wait 5 minutes max as I can book a slot on the council website. I booked an appointment to see the doctor, get bloods and an ECG all online via the health centre and NHS app. No turning up, waiting in line etc just 0-10 minutes at each appointment. I don't think that they are gathering evidence between them and my Lidl, and banking apps to chastise me for my lifestyle and withdraw treatment due to the amount of bacon and cheese I eat and because I cancelled a couple of gym sessions on my gym app.

It's better because it frees up time for everyone, it's not 100% bombproof but better than taking many trips and using up precious time in my opinion. 

[discobob]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

If you stay away from youtoob, and fiction you might not get into a tizz about it. Remember you asked a question and no I don't find it disturbing that there were no radio and TV campaigns?

When I reread the op it is obvious that you have made up your mind that it is something to subjugate or control us, hence Orwell and Adams (and Brazil/Gilliam). Two years ago I was downsizing prior to moving and a trip to the recycling centre meant that sometimes I had a lengthy wait, now I am in a bigger city with the same amount of recycling centres and I wait 5 minutes max as I can book a slot on the council website. I booked an appointment to see the doctor, get bloods and an ECG all online via the health centre and NHS app. No turning up, waiting in line etc just 0-10 minutes at each appointment. I don't think that they are gathering evidence between them and my Lidl, and banking apps to chastise me for my lifestyle and withdraw treatment due to the amount of bacon and cheese I eat and because I cancelled a couple of gym sessions on my gym app.

It's better because it frees up time for everyone, it's not 100% bombproof but better than taking many trips and using up precious time in my opinion. 

Was I saying anything about what is currently being done - there is so much information available online about everyone that it is surprising what can be found out and what can be done. What I feel is that the linking together of all your information into one identifiable "account", linked to a centralised digital currency and perhaps linked to a personal carbon account etc. etc. etc. 

Remember when something is free - it means you are the product being sold - in some way. He same holds try when something is easy 

As I put earlier - I have inside knowledge of GovGateway - I used to have my own GovGateway in a box for use for testing and developing a system for Criminal Justice IT (part of the info boards outside courtrooms) however they decided to not use that for identification for that system. I am not adverse to identification but I am adverse to that identification being used to enforce what you are allowed to do - if you don't believe me - just look at what the WEF (yes tinfoil hat time) are promoting. Videos are freely available online and their agenda is published on their website.

I can nip to the recycling center anytime I want without booking in (currently) with no wait but then that center actually has ANPR cameras within it to capture information. What happens when they start charging you for your visits as you are generating waste which is against Net Zero (just hypothercising) and it all gets logged back against your digital identity.

Orwellian is common vernacular - Never read him (or watched) although there has been some cultural osmosis. Hitchhikers was a TV programme when I was young and then that stuck in my head but I had to google the comment. You brought up Brazil - I didn't.

[henry d]

38 minutes ago, discobob said:

Was I saying anything about what is currently being done - there is so much information available online about everyone that it is surprising what can be found out and what can be done. What I feel is that the linking together of all your information into one identifiable "account", linked to a centralised digital currency and perhaps linked to a personal carbon account etc. etc. etc. 

Remember when something is free - it means you are the product being sold - in some way. He same holds try when something is easy 

As I put earlier - I have inside knowledge of GovGateway - I used to have my own GovGateway in a box for use for testing and developing a system for Criminal Justice IT (part of the info boards outside courtrooms) however they decided to not use that for identification for that system. I am not adverse to identification but I am adverse to that identification being used to enforce what you are allowed to do - if you don't believe me - just look at what the WEF (yes tinfoil hat time) are promoting. Videos are freely available online and their agenda is published on their website.

I can nip to the recycling center anytime I want without booking in (currently) with no wait but then that center actually has ANPR cameras within it to capture information. What happens when they start charging you for your visits as you are generating waste which is against Net Zero (just hypothercising) and it all gets logged back against your digital identity.

Orwellian is common vernacular - Never read him (or watched) although there has been some cultural osmosis. Hitchhikers was a TV programme when I was young and then that stuck in my head but I had to google the comment. You brought up Brazil - I didn't.

Chill pill Chicken Little ! You need to also understand what net zero means for a kick off, and I was just showing you how identity and the right digital tech can help smooth things in life.  Being an e-Luddite isn't going to help. 

[discobob]

@henry d A e-luddite - Moi 🤣 - I have been working in IT since the days it was good (90's) and worked on CJIT CJSE, ECND (MOD Watchtower), DHE systems designing and implimenting... Prior to that I was a Tech in RAF (LTECH-TC) and prior to that I was an operator in the Signals working on Ptarmigan - the forerunner of our mobile phones.

I refuse to move into higher levels because I love doing the technical too much - I specialise in databases, integration, performance etc. etc. and have worked for Microsoft (and with) in the past - you need to point that accusation elsewhere buddy 

If there is one thing that winds me up is badly implemented IT - and I foresee that this will be badly implemented or used for bad reasons