Do you trust BASC

[merseamal]

Just now, Gordon R said:

Whether Rewulf is correct or not, I wish posters would stop saying his questions have been answered. They haven't and it is embarrassing to witness the comprehension of some.

Some complain about him, as if their own posts are beyond reproach. I have been on the end of a couple and, quite frankly, the attacks on Rewulf are disgraceful.

None of my questions have been answered and nobody has even attempted to.

@Rewulfs questions have been answered, at least all of the original ones, possibly not in as much detail as he’d like (guess you’d need to ring Ian Bell, I’m sure he’d happily talk to you) so how can you say they haven’t? And why should they even be answered on here?

what’s not been answered?

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, merseamal said:

None of my questions have been answered and nobody has even attempted to.

@Rewulfs questions have been answered, at least all of the original ones, possibly not in as much detail as he’d like (guess you’d need to ring Ian Bell, I’m sure he’d happily talk to you) so how can you say they haven’t? And why should they even be answered on here?

what’s not been answered?

Whoa whoa whoa! Hang on there Cochise!  
I answered ALL the questions/points you raised in a previous post on this thread after you asked if anyone could answer them! If you missed that post have a gander back through, they’re all there, I’ve checked. 
As an aside, in my experience being a mason is nothing to be proud of and best kept to yourself! Let’s not go down that detour at all. 

[merseamal]

38 minutes ago, Scully said:

Whoa whoa whoa! Hang on there Cochise!  
I answered ALL the questions/points you raised in a previous post on this thread after you asked if anyone could answer them! If you missed that post have a gander back through, they’re all there, I’ve checked. 
As an aside, in my experience being a mason is nothing to be proud of and best kept to yourself! Let’s not go down that detour at all. 

Thank you, yes, I did miss your reply as it was within the quote of my post and was minimised so I didn’t see it at all.

And on reading your answers I can see why you and probably why rewulf are confused.

the government via the HSE because of UK REACH was about to outright ban all lead, not just shot, not just bullets and pellets all lead, do you miss that?

BASC and 8 other organisation stepped in to attempt to stop the ban. Have done a massive amount of work to buy time, make it work and protect small caibres and target shooting.

What clarity is it you are seeking? What organisation(s) do you belong to? What makes the. Better in your mind than BASC? What are they doing to protect shooting for future generations? Do they have any fighting fund at all?

38 minutes ago, Scully said:

Whoa whoa whoa! Hang on there Cochise!  
I answered ALL the questions/points you raised in a previous post on this thread after you asked if anyone could answer them! If you missed that post have a gander back through, they’re all there, I’ve checked. 
As an aside, in my experience being a mason is nothing to be proud of and best kept to yourself! Let’s not go down that detour at all. 

Also please explain the Cochise reference, I know who he was it don’t see the similarity personally 

edit.

I have heard “the voice of shooting” before and it’s been mentioned on this thread, a lot… I’ve been a BASC member for 25+ years and clearly didn’t pay enough attention but, I cannot find it online or anywhere, not in any BASC publications….

basc’s slogan is “best in field”

Edited March 21, 2023 by merseamal

[Scully]

34 minutes ago, merseamal said:

Thank you, yes, I did miss your reply as it was within the quote of my post and was minimised so I didn’t see it at all.

And on reading your answers I can see why you and probably why rewulf are confused.

the government via the HSE because of UK REACH was about to outright ban all lead, not just shot, not just bullets and pellets all lead, do you miss that?

BASC and 8 other organisation stepped in to attempt to stop the ban. Have done a massive amount of work to buy time, make it work and protect small caibres and target shooting.

What clarity is it you are seeking? What organisation(s) do you belong to? What makes the. Better in your mind than BASC? What are they doing to protect shooting for future generations? Do they have any fighting fund at all?

Also please explain the Cochise reference, I know who he was it don’t see the similarity personally 

edit.

I have heard “the voice of shooting” before and it’s been mentioned on this thread, a lot… I’ve been a BASC member for 25+ years and clearly didn’t pay enough attention but, I cannot find it online or anywhere, not in any BASC publications….

basc’s slogan is “best in field”

I’m not confused at all and I didn’t miss anything regarding the HSE or REACH, and if you look back far enough through various threads and posts you’ll see that I have defended BASC’s position on the ‘voluntary phase out’ and tried to explain to others why they are in the position they are on this matter, having had very little choice. 
Since talking personally to a BASC representative I’m also now aware that they are prepared to fight a legal battle regarding the exemption of .410, rimfire and airguns. 
Yes, BASC and 8 other organisations took it upon themselves to instigate the phase out without consulting ANY UK shooters, members or otherwise, therefore ANY UK shooters are perfectly entitled to ask questions of those organisations as a result. 
I’m not seeking any clarity as I’m not confused, I’m simply telling it as it is. 
I don’t belong to any organisations now, having over the years been a member of most of them, and for most of them BASC. I would dearly love to rejoin, but having been disappointed by all of them over the years, now get my insurance through Gunplan. It doesn’t have a fighting fund nor does it lobby, it offers insurance only, and that’s all I require. 
The Cochise reference is simply a ‘hold your horses’ phrase. 
If you haven’t heard of BASC’s proclamation to be the ‘voice of shooting’ then I can only assume you’ve been on the moon for some time, as the slogan adorned BASC’s magazines and most other printed paraphernalia for years. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

all your questions have been answered adequately both in here and via PM

Actually , I'm struggling to find a single question of mine that's been answered.

I'll try again, how much is in the fighting fund , and how much has been spent since it was formed , and what on.

DO NOT tell me the accounts are online for everyone to peruse, because they are NOT.

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

orters that appear to have disappeared) mission to destroy the reputation of BASC with wild, rude and unfounded allegations, you are acting like a spoilt toddler that is not getting his own way.

I asked a simple question , who knew it would cause all this angst and wringing of hands ? Then insults and character assassination? 

Makes you wonder why it's so difficult to answer , or not, tell me to mind my own business , its nothing to do with me etc....

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

what makes this worse is that you are a fellow Brother! Your attitude, behaviour and general language you have used in here is truly un-Masonic

 

Un masonic ? Asking a question politely, goes against the tenets of the Craft?

Think about that one now, Read back , and tell me what I've done wrong.

Besides ask a difficult question.

[merseamal]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

I’m not confused at all and I didn’t miss anything regarding the HSE or REACH, and if you look back far enough through various threads and posts you’ll see that I have defended BASC’s position on the ‘voluntary phase out’ and tried to explain to others why they are in the position they are on this matter, having had very little choice. 
Since talking personally to a BASC representative I’m also now aware that they are prepared to fight a legal battle regarding the exemption of .410, rimfire and airguns. 
Yes, BASC and 8 other organisations took it upon themselves to instigate the phase out without consulting ANY UK shooters, members or otherwise, therefore ANY UK shooters are perfectly entitled to ask questions of those organisations as a result. 
I’m not seeking any clarity as I’m not confused, I’m simply telling it as it is. 
I don’t belong to any organisations now, having over the years been a member of most of them, and for most of them BASC. I would dearly love to rejoin, but having been disappointed by all of them over the years, now get my insurance through Gunplan. It doesn’t have a fighting fund nor does it lobby, it offers insurance only, and that’s all I require. 
The Cochise reference is simply a ‘hold your horses’ phrase. 
If you haven’t heard of BASC’s proclamation to be the ‘voice of shooting’ then I can only assume you’ve been on the moon for some time, as the slogan adorned BASC’s magazines and most other printed paraphernalia for years. 

This is where it all gets confusing.

I asked my previous questions to those attacking BASC, you answered in their behalf.

you answered my question what are you looking for with “clarity” yet you seem quite clear?

regarding the organisations, I find that a real shame, I feel every shooter should belong to an organisation to support our way of life, I mean I think everyone should be a BASC member, but if not at least one of the others.

have you read your policy? Do you know what you are and are not covered for? If you had to make a claim would you have to find it until a result was read he’d and then attempt to claim your costs back?

regarding “the voice of shooting” yes, as I said I have heard and seen it lots, it is not basc’s current slogan nor can I find any reference to it on the internet, anywhere.

[merseamal]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Actually , I'm struggling to find a single question of mine that's been answered.

I'll try again, how much is in the fighting fund , and how much has been spent since it was formed , and what on.

As I said, Ian Bell and accounts are probably the only people that know that as of today… like I said, I’m sure Ian would happily chat to you.

DO NOT tell me the accounts are online for everyone to peruse, because they are NOT.

they are, and, new ones get published every year which is when everyone else finds out the answer to your question.

I asked a simple question , who knew it would cause all this angst and wringing of hands ? Then insults and character assassination?

no you didn’t, you asked a series of questions that have all been answered to some degree, you just don’t like the answers.

Makes you wonder why it's so difficult to answer , or not, tell me to mind my own business , its nothing to do with me etc....

Un masonic ? Asking a question politely, goes against the tenets of the Craft?

many of your replies have not been polite, your character assassination of the council, BASC members and BASC staff are not polite, 

Think about that one now, Read back , and tell me what I've done wrong.

Besides ask a difficult question.

I said a lot more than you have replied to, does that mean you accept and agree with the rest or are my simple questions to difficult for you?

 

[Rewulf]

Actually , I'm struggling to find a single question of mine that's been answered.

I'll try again, how much is in the fighting fund , and how much has been spent since it was formed , and what on.

As I said, Ian Bell and accounts are probably the only people that know that as of today… like I said, I’m sure Ian would happily chat to you.

Won't speak to you unless you're a member. 

DO NOT tell me the accounts are online for everyone to peruse, because they are NOT.

they are, and, new ones get published every year which is when everyone else finds out the answer to your question.

The fighting fund isn't even mentioned in the 2020 accounts, the same year £300,000 was allegedly spent from it, the first mention is in the 2021 accounts where it says in 2020 there was £708,000, then in 2021 there was £587,000, so unless it got 'topped up' at least £420,000 was spent on 'legal battles' in those 18 months. 

Is it too much to ask what it was spent on? 

I asked a simple question , who knew it would cause all this angst and wringing of hands ? Then insults and character assassination?

no you didn’t, you asked a series of questions that have all been answered to some degree, you just don’t like the answers.

See above, that is the main question, if you've seen or know the answer, please quote it. 

Makes you wonder why it's so difficult to answer , or not, tell me to mind my own business , its nothing to do with me etc....

Un masonic ? Asking a question politely, goes against the tenets of the Craft?

many of your replies have not been polite, your character assassination of the council, BASC members and BASC staff are not polite, 

Please quote my impolite responses. 

Think about that one now, Read back , and tell me what I've done wrong.

Besides ask a difficult question.

I said a lot more than you have replied to, does that mean you accept and agree with the rest or are my simple questions to difficult for you?

Nope, I'm just too busy at the moment. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Rewulf

[merseamal]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Actually , I'm struggling to find a single question of mine that's been answered.

I'll try again, how much is in the fighting fund , and how much has been spent since it was formed , and what on.

As I said, Ian Bell and accounts are probably the only people that know that as of today… like I said, I’m sure Ian would happily chat to you.

Won't speak to you unless you're a member. 

DO NOT tell me the accounts are online for everyone to peruse, because they are NOT.

they are, and, new ones get published every year which is when everyone else finds out the answer to your question.

The fighting fund isn't even mentioned in the 2020 accounts, the same year £300,000 was allegedly spent from it, the first mention is in the 2021 accounts where it says in 2020 there was £708,000, then in 2021 there was £587,000, so unless it got 'topped up' at least £420,000 was spent on 'legal battles' in those 18 months. 

Is it too much to ask what it was spent on? 

I asked a simple question , who knew it would cause all this angst and wringing of hands ? Then insults and character assassination?

no you didn’t, you asked a series of questions that have all been answered to some degree, you just don’t like the answers.

See above, that is the main question, if you've seen or know the answer, please quote it. 

Makes you wonder why it's so difficult to answer , or not, tell me to mind my own business , its nothing to do with me etc....

Un masonic ? Asking a question politely, goes against the tenets of the Craft?

many of your replies have not been polite, your character assassination of the council, BASC members and BASC staff are not polite, 

Please quote my impolite responses. 

Think about that one now, Read back , and tell me what I've done wrong.

Besides ask a difficult question.

I said a lot more than you have replied to, does that mean you accept and agree with the rest or are my simple questions to difficult for you?

Nope, I'm just too busy at the moment. 

😂 

it’s in the 2020 accounts.

it’s in the 2021 accounts.

mot will be in the 2022 accounts.

if you have a problem with how accounts are done I’d talk to the FCA

im not sure what you’re trying to achieve other than alienate everyone and get them to stop talking to you.

[Gordon R]

merseamal - the questions Rewulf asked are not covered in the accounts. You are either being deliberately obtuse or you appear to have difficulty reading.

You might not agree with Rewulf or even like him, but your slating of him does you no credit.

I think you have cornered the market in alienation.

 

[Rewulf]

38 minutes ago, merseamal said:

it’s in the 2020 accounts.

it’s in the 2021 accounts

Then quote them to me, I'm too thick to find them 🤣

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, merseamal said:

 

BASC and 8 other organisation stepped in to attempt to stop the ban. Have done a massive amount of work to buy time, make it work and protect small caibres and target shooting.

 

No they didn't help. By advocating a voluntary ban they have removed form any Government the obligation to pay compensation for what is then prohibited. They have in fact not done anything to protect lead as you can't argue that some lead is good and some lead is bad. It's a nonsense. A rabbit shot with a lead pellet is bad yet a rabbit shot with a lead bullet or lead air rifle pellet isn't bad? Same rabbit, same lead so where's the difference? 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, merseamal said:

😂

it’s in the 2020 accounts.

it’s in the 2021 accounts.

mot will be in the 2022 accounts.

if you have a problem with how accounts are done I’d talk to the FCA

im not sure what you’re trying to achieve other than alienate everyone and get them to stop talking to you.

I've no idea if the answer to Rewulfs questions are in the accounts or not, but if they are, can you not post a link? 

[Gordon R]

It's a cop out - "It's in the 2020 and 2021 accounts".

[holloway]

Yep I can clearly see after 12 pages of informed opinion that Basc are to blame for everything including…. climate change ,Covid ,civil unrest in France ,the high cost of living, immigration crisis and say it quietly my old dogs nasty eye infection that has cost me a small fortune ,I for one won’t be rejoining them ,a big thank you to all of the participants for making me see the light.

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, holloway said:

Yep I can clearly see after 12 pages of informed opinion that Basc are to blame for everything including…. climate change ,Covid ,civil unrest in France ,the high cost of living, immigration crisis and say it quietly my old dogs nasty eye infection that has cost me a small fortune ,I for one won’t be rejoining them ,a big thank you to all of the participants for making me see the light.

Don't be so  cynical, I don't think they're responsible for covid, that was their sister company, the Chinese association for shooting and communism. 

I thought everyone knew that 😂

[holloway]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Don't be so  cynical, I don't think they're responsible for covid, that was their sister company, the Chinese association for shooting and communism. 

I thought everyone knew that 😂

No not cynical ,I’m pretty sure there are strong ties between the two .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

No they didn't help. By advocating a voluntary ban they have removed form any Government the obligation to pay compensation for what is then prohibited. They have in fact not done anything to protect lead as you can't argue that some lead is good and some lead is bad. It's a nonsense. A rabbit shot with a lead pellet is bad yet a rabbit shot with a lead bullet or lead air rifle pellet isn't bad? Same rabbit, same lead so where's the difference? 

That sums the whole shoddy episode up very well.

Those of us who are now anti BASC are universally EX MEMBERS who have been disgusted by the lead that BASC have taken and thrown the majority under the bus!

[harkom]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Those of us who are now anti BASC are universally EX MEMBERS who have been disgusted by the lead that BASC have taken and thrown the majority under the bus!

Unfortunately it often proves impossible to evade the pocket-picking fingers of BSAC - eg many wild fowling clubs are affiliated to it and  membership of the latter entails a mandatory membership of the former. Of course many of the committee members of these organisations are the old dyed in the wool yes men/life members of BSAC and will not countenance membership of alternative organisations- as - primarily - third party insurance.

[merseamal]

43 minutes ago, harkom said:

Unfortunately it often proves impossible to evade the pocket-picking fingers of BSAC - eg many wild fowling clubs are affiliated to it and  membership of the latter entails a mandatory membership of the former. Of course many of the committee members of these organisations are the old dyed in the wool yes men/life members of BSAC and will not countenance membership of alternative organisations- as - primarily - third party insurance.

Where did you get that from?

if you belong to more than one club then you claim back extra fees but, a new system is being out in place whereby you nominate one club and only pay that one.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, merseamal said:

Where did you get that from?

if you belong to more than one club then you claim back extra fees but, a new system is being out in place whereby you nominate one club and only pay that one.

At least twice now you’ve been asked to provide a link or quote the accounts you claim answer Rewulf questions. 
Any chance you could do that? Ta. 

[Gordon R]

Can I make this a third request?

[Rewulf]

15 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

No they didn't help. By advocating a voluntary ban they have removed form any Government the obligation to pay compensation for what is then prohibited. They have in fact not done anything to protect lead as you can't argue that some lead is good and some lead is bad. It's a nonsense. A rabbit shot with a lead pellet is bad yet a rabbit shot with a lead bullet or lead air rifle pellet isn't bad? Same rabbit, same lead so where's the difference? 

This press release from last year demonstrates the wishful thinking that BASC has been using since it announced its 'phase out'

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-uk-reach-lead-ammunition-consultation/

This section is the killer blow.
 

'There is clear evidence of risk of primary poisoning of birds from lead shot and of the human health risk from exposure to lead in game meat.

Having assessed the evidence, we concluded that restrictions on the sale and use of both lead shot and expanding lead rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting would be effective at eliminating those proven risks.'

They have agreed 'lead is bad' and the die is cast , yet seem to think that 'some' lead can still be used ?

'To support our position, we have submitted a series of technical reports. These demonstrate the need for raising the threshold of ‘small calibres’ within the UK REACH dossier to include any calibre below 6.5mm. This would provide a longer transition period for calibres such as .243. '

'We maintain our view that airgun ammunition should not be restricted as the risk to human health can be managed through existing sector guidance on game meat handling. We have also prepared a technical report demonstrating the inherent unsuitability of existing lead-free airgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.'

Apparently clay pigeon shooters should be OK with lead though !!

 

Clay pigeon and target shooting

'The evidence presented by the HSE on secondary exposure to birds, plus lead exposure pathways to livestock and other animals, soil, soil organisms, plants, and surface waters, is not conclusive.'

Really ? I thought it was ?

'BASC believes that lead shot could continue to be used for clay pigeon / target shooting at venues where risks of primary exposure to birds is managed. We also advocate that lead rifle ammunition (non-expanding) can continue to be used on ranges. We believe that current legal and regulatory frameworks are effective and further regulation risks the unnecessary ‘gold plating’ of environmental directives.'

Confused? Yeah me too .
How do you 'manage' lead shot fallout on clay grounds ?

Although it would be nice to have our cake , and eat it too, I suspect cake will be in short supply within a few years.

 

 

[Dave-G]

Rewulf is getting my thumbs up here because he's raising issues that can affect me and umpteen other pest control shooters.

I'm not mentally able to dig deep into all aspects of shooting and have difficulty expressing myself in the way I'd like to sometimes, although word processors help a bit. I have, after reading lots of Google results about autism because most of my offspring have many of the issues, come to an idea that I'm probably slightly autistic myself. Its never been diagnosed and it was relatively unheard of in my youth so never got picked up on.

Although I have a shotgun its a very old over and under used to knock Blackies and their nests out of trees around a golf course that I now only do rimfire rabbit control on as my main permission.

My main reasons for joining BASC were:

(A) That I sometimes express myself badly - and they would be a good fall back if I get FAC application related matters wrong or fall foul of a retired CID anti shooting  trainee FLO.... who got so much wrong he was soon out of a job. As it happens a senior FLO who was also a sporting shooter got those issues put right after I wrote an appeal letter.

(B) That they would financially support any legal proceedings that arise from me getting things slightly wrong and if that trainee managed to unfairly impact my shooting any further.

(C) For the insurance.

My requirements for A and B are no longer fully provided for and I get a feeling that rifle shooters are not their mainstream income and thus not high on their support activities.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dave-G

[enfieldspares]

3 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

 

(B) That they would financially support any legal proceedings that arise from me getting things slightly wrong and if that trainee managed to unfairly impact my shooting any further.

 

Fortunately we live in Leicestershire...although not all of us, as do you, in Webbeland! !

As regards insurance I left BASC after the lead letter and now am with CPSA. They do still offer legal cover for refusal to renew, or revocation of same, of an SGC. Not though for FAC. 

Nevertheless here is the link to the CPSA insurance:

https://www.cpsa.co.uk/files/download/1414/SL-CPSA-Leaflet-2022-Edition-Digital.pdf