Do you trust BASC

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

All pheasant carcasses are thrown away, with the exception of those processed by the odd shooter and dealers and either eaten or sold almost entire;  just like many other game and pest species which are shot for various reasons. 

Like I say , controversial .

Something the anti shooting brigade seize upon , I think personally that no matter what its shot with , the general , non shooting public , see a 'live target' that once shot , gets thrown in the bin ?
The image of shooting suffers accordingly , once this idea becomes media driven.

For you and me , it is what it is, but there are those that would sign anything that bans it.

[Konor]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

All pheasant carcasses are thrown away, with the exception of those processed by the odd shooter and dealers and either eaten or sold almost entire;  just like many other game and pest species which are shot for various reasons. 

Have you a credible source for that information as I’m finding it hard to believe from my own experience ,I don’t shoot anywhere where the game is discarded. If it is as widespread as you suggest a) You are handing any anti field sports supporter great justification for their campaigning and b) if you are guilty of this yourself I think it’s time you stuck to the clay pigeons. 

[grahamch]

7 hours ago, harkom said:

What???     I have never shot in Wales, nor likely to do so. I know not about the management practices or animal welfare issues on commercial shoots in Wales.

So why on earth would I lodge a protest......at  behest of BSAC employee?

For the good of the wider sport, what happens in looney Wales may well happen here if we get Stalmer and his scum in power.

Very narrow minded and selfish viewpoint

[Scully]

54 minutes ago, Konor said:

Have you a credible source for that information as I’m finding it hard to believe from my own experience ,I don’t shoot anywhere where the game is discarded. If it is as widespread as you suggest a) You are handing any anti field sports supporter great justification for their campaigning and b) if you are guilty of this yourself I think it’s time you stuck to the clay pigeons. 

You and I have different opinions on what constitutes a ‘carcass’. Where I come from a carcass is the bare bones of a creature; what remains after all the meat etc has been stripped. 
There have been many claims from antis purporting to what they claim are dumped bags, but in fact turn out to be the dumped carcasses of processed birds. Bad enough as that is, no one as yet has posted undeniable evidence of entire/complete birds dumped following a driven days shooting, but now I’ve posted this I’ve no doubt it’ll soon occur. 
In all my years shooting I have never witnessed or heard of bags being dumped, and would be outraged to learn that it happens. 
Most people I know who shoot game or edible pest species process the creature and dump the carcass, including myself. Dumping includes shoving the remains in the bin after processing at home. 

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Like I say , controversial .

Something the anti shooting brigade seize upon , I think personally that no matter what its shot with , the general , non shooting public , see a 'live target' that once shot , gets thrown in the bin ?
The image of shooting suffers accordingly , once this idea becomes media driven.

For you and me , it is what it is, but there are those that would sign anything that bans it.

If you know of entire game birds being ‘thrown in the bin’ for no good reason, then you need to protest; it does no one any favours at all. 
It’s all controversial; simply eating meat is growing increasingly controversial nowadays, for all manner of reasons. 

[Konor]

Just now, Scully said:

You and I have different opinions on what constitutes a ‘carcass’. Where I come from a carcass is the bare bones of a creature; what remains after all the meat etc has been stripped. 
There have been many claims from antis purporting to what they claim are dumped bags, but in fact turn out to be the dumped carcasses of processed birds. Bad enough as that is, no one as yet has posted undeniable evidence of entire/complete birds dumped following a driven days shooting, but now I’ve posted this I’ve no doubt it’ll soon occur. 
In all my years shooting I have never witnessed or heard of bags being dumped, and would be outraged to learn that it happens. 
Most people I know who shoot game or edible pest species process the creature and dump the carcass, including myself. Dumping includes shoving the remains in the bin after processing at home. 

Thanks for clarifying that Scully. I’m in agreement with what you say above, sorry for misunderstanding.
For me the sport is just an enjoyable way of putting game on the table and always has been. I do breast out some birds if I have a lot but in my earlier years it was the norm to pluck the bird and present it for roasting. It takes me around a half hour to pluck and prepare a pheasant so I’m glad I normally only have the opportunity to take home a brace or two.I have taken away between 30 to 40 birds from larger shoots but draw the line at 6 plucked birds ,the rest are breasted and legged.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

You and I have different opinions on what constitutes a ‘carcass’. Where I come from a carcass is the bare bones of a creature; what remains after all the meat etc has been stripped. 

Ah I see , I was talking about the complete bird 

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

In all my years shooting I have never witnessed or heard of bags being dumped, and would be outraged to learn that it happens. 

I dont do a lot of game shooting , but Ive definitely heard of the commercial shoots round here doing just that , they do try to give them away, but precious few of the 'guns on pegs' types would know what to do with the bird anyway.

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

If you know of entire game birds being ‘thrown in the bin’ for no good reason, then you need to protest; it does no one any favours at all. 
It’s all controversial; simply eating meat is growing increasingly controversial nowadays, for all manner of reasons. 

There was a few pubs near me that used to take shot birds, and Im not sure if theres a change in law or practice within the catering trade, but they started asking for things like, birds to be refrigerated soon after kill, no feather ect, non lead shot.
Like I say , I seldom shoot pheasant partridge ect , but those who do , cannot seem to find outlets for them, so they go to waste unfortunately.

[Fellside]

If people are prepared to make an effort - the shot birds will end up in the food chain. I know one game dealer who pays peanuts for birds and sends them to Belgium in a refrigerated unit. Obviously transport is costly - hence small money for the birds. Apparently the Belgian recipient then distributes the birds to outlets across France and Belgium. 

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Thanks for clarifying that Scully. I’m in agreement with what you say above, sorry for misunderstanding.
For me the sport is just an enjoyable way of putting game on the table and always has been. I do breast out some birds if I have a lot but in my earlier years it was the norm to pluck the bird and present it for roasting. It takes me around a half hour to pluck and prepare a pheasant so I’m glad I normally only have the opportunity to take home a brace or two.I have taken away between 30 to 40 birds from larger shoots but draw the line at 6 plucked birds ,the rest are breasted and legged.

We cannot get away from the fact that the supply and demand of game in general is vastly over saturated with the supply ,in Norfolk alone we must have 100s of shoots from the small walk and stand to the big bag commercial shoots , as an example , I was talking to a chap who do a lot of picking up and last season he done 52 days , all the days are well into three figures , the smaller shoots I go on are mainly in the 100 / 150 bird day and on these you can help yourself to the game as it is now a waste of time and money in taking them to a dealer , gone are the days where the sale of game helped to pay for the helpers and in those far off days after the beaters ect were paid they might have even had a few bob left over to put back in the shoot , now I have even heard from a very reliable person that the game dealer now charge to come and pick the game up and this years birds are going to be around the £50 per bird mark , so it's not really going to break the bank if the shoot owners have to pay a few quid to move the game on , if they were asked what happen to all the shot game ? , they can tell the truth and say all our game go to a game dealer and we certainly don't chuck any away .

I don't know what the game was making last season as I didn't sell any to a dealer , not a lot I would suspect , I know the previous season a small game dealer near me was paying 30p for a hen and 40p for a cock bird and before the season finished he got flooded out with game and couldn't take any more .

[merseamal]

10 hours ago, harkom said:

What???     I have never shot in Wales, nor likely to do so. I know not about the management practices or animal welfare issues on commercial shoots in Wales.

So why on earth would I lodge a protest......at  behest of BSAC employee?

Seriously? You think this will stop in wales? Like the hunting ban, ban on pistols this is another nail on the coffin for shooting, you think the antis won’t be getting people all round the world to complete this?

10 hours ago, wymberley said:

While you answer the question asked of you regarding better penetration of clay pigeons by steel shot, could you also kindly explain how you define 'better pattern' - what does that mean? I'm somewhat confused as understanding the saying, 'pattern kills' I am aware of what is required for live quarry shooting and don't understand what makes steel shot superior for use on clays as you describe.

Better penetration no, clays don’t need loads of penetration but it’s better for killing quarry, conversely surely it’s better that steel penetrates for clays rather than not as well.

by better patter I mean tighter by nature, so if you normally shoot 8’s through half choke in lead, shooting 7’s through quarter will cover you a tighter, more dense pattern that has more shot in it, make sense?

[Fellside]

17 minutes ago, marsh man said:

We cannot get away from the fact that the supply and demand of game in general is vastly over saturated with the supply ,in Norfolk alone we must have 100s of shoots from the small walk and stand to the big bag commercial shoots , as an example , I was talking to a chap who do a lot of picking up and last season he done 52 days , all the days are well into three figures , the smaller shoots I go on are mainly in the 100 / 150 bird day and on these you can help yourself to the game as it is now a waste of time and money in taking them to a dealer , gone are the days where the sale of game helped to pay for the helpers and in those far off days after the beaters ect were paid they might have even had a few bob left over to put back in the shoot , now I have even heard from a very reliable person that the game dealer now charge to come and pick the game up and this years birds are going to be around the £50 per bird mark , so it's not really going to break the bank if the shoot owners have to pay a few quid to move the game on , if they were asked what happen to all the shot game ? , they can tell the truth and say all our game go to a game dealer and we certainly don't chuck any away .

I don't know what the game was making last season as I didn't sell any to a dealer , not a lot I would suspect , I know the previous season a small game dealer near me was paying 30p for a hen and 40p for a cock bird and before the season finished he got flooded out with game and couldn't take any more .

Yes I’ve heard of shoots paying the game dealer to take them. I think however these are extreme examples and in my experience they pay - albeit pennies. At least they somehow get used. 

[merseamal]

9 minutes ago, merseamal said:

Seriously? You think this will stop in wales? Like the hunting ban, ban on pistols this is another nail on the coffin for shooting, you think the antis won’t be getting people all round the world to complete this?

Better penetration no, clays don’t need loads of penetration but it’s better for killing quarry, conversely surely it’s better that steel penetrates for clays rather than not as well.

by better patter I mean tighter by nature, so if you normally shoot 8’s through half choke in lead, shooting 7’s through quarter will cover you a tighter, more dense pattern that has more shot in it, make sense?

On the whole game price, use etc. I predict pheasant going up to approx £5 a brace once they are all shot with steel… and not to the game dealer, to the posh raw dig food manufacturers.

and if anyone is unaware, it is illegal to shoot and “dump” game, any shoot that does not have a viable outlet is morally wrong and breaking the law.

@rewolf, if everyone is shooting steel at clays there’s no unfair advantage, but if you’re an early adopter then there is an advantage.

so, still use lead on air guns…centre fires under 6.5mm (for now)

more money for you pheasants and pigeons.

better scores at clays (if you want to use steel)

what’s not to like? Now do you trust BASC?

[marsh man]

50 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Yes I’ve heard of shoots paying the game dealer to take them. I think however these are extreme examples and in my experience they pay - albeit pennies. At least they somehow get used. 

Another thing that have changed to try and reduce the waste is some shoots now get part of the days bag processed to give the guns on the next shoot a brace of oven ready Pheasants to take home rather than a brace in the feather , it was also mentioned where some of the dealers are making more money out of processing the game for the shoots than they do for selling the game to various outlets , again it is down to supply and demand.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

@rewolf, if everyone is shooting steel at clays there’s no unfair advantage, but if you’re an early adopter then there is an advantage.

so, still use lead on air guns…centre fires under 6.5mm (for now)

more money for you pheasants and pigeons.

better scores at clays (if you want to use steel)

what’s not to like? Now do you trust BASC?

So what is the 'advantage' 5, 10 % better scores with steel, why isn't everyone using it then? 

£5 a brace? It's not happening any time soon I'm afraid. 

As far as trusting BASC? Again to do what? You have already decided BASC is going to 'save'  lead for air. .410, rimfire, and anything under 6.5mm? That my friend, is trust. 

But then you say lead is toxic, and we should have stopped using it years ago. You really can't have it both ways. 

If BASC rewards your trust and fights for saving all the above, and wins, I'll shoot a round of clays, with steel, in a mankini, at a ground of your choice, with a big smile on my face. 😋

 

[Gas seal]

Shooters given oven ready pheasants now that’s a change. There is a lot less demand for pigeons and game now, l don’t think it’s about to change. I don’t think pheasants will be sold for five pounds a brace for dog or cat food they will use ex layers , it’s rabbits they ask for. 
Game shooting is often referred to as traditional, as was fox hunting it was even on Christmas cards, when the public hear about game keepers killing birds of prey, another man has been arrested I hope he isn’t a game keeper, and things like stink pits it doesn’t go down well. I hear this from shooting and none shooting people.

I don’t know about the proposed regulations for game releases or shooting but wildfowling is regulated, shooting areas ,birds shot ,when shot cartridges used , and bag returns. We have new licences for pest control. 
l don’t think it’s about the numbers of people saying they don’t want change to game shooting, it’s the reason for no change that will count. I don’t see any positive reasons for no change. This is what shooters should concentrate on more so with small farm types of shoots before replying to the consultation.

[merseamal]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

If BASC rewards your trust and fights for saving all the above, and wins, I'll shoot a round of clays, with steel, in a mankini, at a ground of your choice, with a big smile on my face. 😋

 

😂 I’ll see you at Sporting targets in August, I’ll bring a film crew and we can raise some money for charity!

[merseamal]

7 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Shooters given oven ready pheasants now that’s a change. There is a lot less demand for pigeons and game now, l don’t think it’s about to change. I don’t think pheasants will be sold for five pounds a brace for dog or cat food they will use ex layers , it’s rabbits they ask for. 
Game shooting is often referred to as traditional, as was fox hunting it was even on Christmas cards, when the public hear about game keepers killing birds of prey, another man has been arrested I hope he isn’t a game keeper, and things like stink pits it doesn’t go down well. I hear this from shooting and none shooting people.

I don’t know about the proposed regulations for game releases or shooting but wildfowling is regulated, shooting areas ,birds shot ,when shot cartridges used , and bag returns. We have new licences for pest control. 
l don’t think it’s about the numbers of people saying they don’t want change to game shooting, it’s the reason for no change that will count. I don’t see any positive reasons for no change. This is what shooters should concentrate on more so with small farm types of shoots before replying to the consultation.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

im predominantly a wildfowler, have never had an issue with bag returns, non-toxic etc.

I have also worked on large game shoots keeperimg, picking up and beating and whilst the shoots I have been lucky enough to be involved with have been run brilliantly (all meat goes into the food chain) I have heard plenty of horror stories about other shoots, this needs sorting.

I think it will be the small farm shoots as you out it, where most people get introduced to shooting as kids that will suffer if we get more regulation, they won’t have the resources to comply, the knickknacks in effect will be less license holders, in turn less game farms, less gun shops, in turn less clay grounds etc etc 

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, merseamal said:

Seriously? You think this will stop in wales? Like the hunting ban, ban on pistols this is another nail on the coffin for shooting, you think the antis won’t be getting people all round the world to complete this?

Better penetration no, clays don’t need loads of penetration but it’s better for killing quarry, conversely surely it’s better that steel penetrates for clays rather than not as well.

by better patter I mean tighter by nature, so if you normally shoot 8’s through half choke in lead, shooting 7’s through quarter will cover you a tighter, more dense pattern that has more shot in it, make sense?

Don't ask me, you're the expert.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, merseamal said:

😂 I’ll see you at Sporting targets in August, I’ll bring a film crew and we can raise some money for charity!

I reckon I'm safe 🤣

[Gordon R]

Quote

by better patter I mean tighter by nature, so if you normally shoot 8’s through half choke in lead, shooting 7’s through quarter will cover you a tighter, more dense pattern that has more shot in it, make sense?

Quote

better scores at clays (if you want to use steel)

A quantum leap in logic. Perhaps you could explain the reasoning behind those two.

[harkom]

20 hours ago, grahamch said:

Very narrow minded and selfish viewpoint

Whatever.....  It is a pity that you just follow the party line.....which is just exactly why BSAC has had such an easy ride for years.