Sidelock - Cracked Head

[Novice]

I've been asked to give an opinion on this damage found on an aya sidelock. 

My view, based on the contact marks on the stock from the metalwork (which I hope come through in the photos as the "silvery" areas on the head of the stock) is that the gum was originally poorly finished by the stocker. As a result, the contact between wood and metalwork has been inconsistent, with the stocking fracturing as a result of the uneven pressure passing through when in use. 

I suppose an alternative cause may have seen it occur when the gun was being stripped. I understand the screw on the bottom of the action was difficult to remove. 

As a final point, I was also asked about the impact the damage will have on the value of the gun. I appreciate there are currently some unknowns around whether it may spread or whether it can be addressed and repaired, but would it be fair to say a gun with this issue will be worth a fraction of what it should be? As ever, while quite a nice aya sidelock, I would expect the cost of restocking to be uneconomical as compared to value of gun. 

 

[ditchman]

looks like a number 2 aya............i imajine if taken to the right person they would open up the crack dribble some thin glue into it and clamp it.....my guess at a cost of £70-150 quid.....

the only problem i see if there is alot of oil in the stock from over oiling........i have always stored my guns barrel down...i rekon if it was opened and glued and clamed ..it would be fine and a sound repair 

thats just my opinion

[holloway]

44 minutes ago, Novice said:

I've been asked to give an opinion on this damage found on an aya sidelock. 

My view, based on the contact marks on the stock from the metalwork (which I hope come through in the photos as the "silvery" areas on the head of the stock) is that the gum was originally poorly finished by the stocker. As a result, the contact between wood and metalwork has been inconsistent, with the stocking fracturing as a result of the uneven pressure passing through when in use. 

I suppose an alternative cause may have seen it occur when the gun was being stripped. I understand the screw on the bottom of the action was difficult to remove. 

As a final point, I was also asked about the impact the damage will have on the value of the gun. I appreciate there are currently some unknowns around whether it may spread or whether it can be addressed and repaired, but would it be fair to say a gun with this issue will be worth a fraction of what it should be? As ever, while quite a nice aya sidelock, I would expect the cost of restocking to be uneconomical as compared to value of gun. 

 

So your opinion is that the stocker has caused this by being poor at his job ? Do we know the age of this gun ?

[Novice]

16 minutes ago, holloway said:

So your opinion is that the stocker has caused this by being poor at his job ? Do we know the age of this gun ?

Well I'm looking at it as poor wood to metal fit, which I'd say would fall to who did the stock work. Is that not a fair assumption? 

Serial number dates it to mid 70s. Obviously don't know the history of the gun, but suggestion is the stock has never been off it for a long time, if ever since it left the factory. 

[oowee]

34 minutes ago, ditchman said:

looks like a number 2 aya............i imajine if taken to the right person they would open up the crack dribble some thin glue into it and clamp it.....my guess at a cost of £70-150 quid.....

the only problem i see if there is alot of oil in the stock from over oiling........i have always stored my guns barrel down...i rekon if it was opened and glued and clamed ..it would be fine and a sound repair 

thats just my opinion

This. I have just had my silver pigeon done. It was £50 (plus £30 parking fine in Bath) and you cannot see the repair. 

[holloway]

16 minutes ago, Novice said:

Well I'm looking at it as poor wood to metal fit, which I'd say would fall to who did the stock work. Is that not a fair assumption? 

Serial number dates it to mid 70s. Obviously don't know the history of the gun, but suggestion is the stock has never been off it for a long time, if ever since it left the factory. 

 

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

This. I have just had my silver pigeon done. It was £50 (plus £30 parking fine in Bath) and you cannot see the repair. 

It’s 50 years ago the stocker is probably dead , there are several forum members who have a lifetime of experience from the trade who will give an informed opinion when they turn up ,to judge a job done that long ago as poor may be a little harsh.

[old'un]

Its also possible the crack was in the wood from the day it was made.

[scarecrow243]

as ditchman said to much oil being used and soaking into the stock could have caused it to crack and not the stock fit

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

as ditchman said to much oil being used and soaking into the stock could have caused it to crack and not the stock fit

I think he meant that too much oil would prevent any glue from working, not that the oil could have caused the crack.

[scarecrow243]

gun oil is not good for wood simple to many people over oil their guns and it runs down into the wood

Edited March 17, 2023 by scarecrow243

[old'un]

5 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

gun oil is not good for wood simple to many people over oil their guns and it runs down into the wood

That's why you should store guns barrel down.

[London Best]

2 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

gun oil is not good for wood simple to many people over oil their guns and it runs down into the wood

And the problem it causes is it softens the wood, not cracks it.

Clean the gun, oil where necessary, then all excess oil should be wiped off and the gun stored Barrell’s down.

[Fil]

It's not uncommon for any sidelock 50 years old to have small cracks in the head. The wood gets soft and brittle from oil contamination.  Also if the breech and hand pins are loose and the gun continues to be shot the stock will inevitably crack. Even on younger guns.  I've seen loads of guns with loose stocks and cracks. Owners don't notice and also do not have the gun regularly maintained where the looseness will be addressed. A proper gunsmith or gunmaker knows how to tighten actions on the wood.

The trigger plate pin (I assume the screw you are referring to) should be difficult to remove. As should have been the breech pin. If the breech pin was easy to undo and the hand pin was half a turn out then that could be your answer. Just because the stock may have never been off the gun doesn't mean it wasn't loose on the action.  Doesn't look that bad in the photo but best get it looked at though.

FYI I'm currently working on a No.2 with the very same crack. I'm not the slightest bit concerned and will run some epoxy in it when I reassemble the gun. When it's all tight on the action it won't be an issue. Interesting to see your stock initialled by the stocker. I've stripped hundreds of No.2's and don't recall ever seeing them initialled. I also don't recall the inside of the lock plates being "jewelled" either. 

If it says S for safe in front of the safety catch then it's a No.2. (There were other grades of sidelocks)  If it says SAFE then it's a No.1

[enfieldspares]

On 17/03/2023 at 08:22, scarecrow243 said:

gun oil is not good for wood simple to many people over oil their guns and it runs down into the wood

It's why I always store my shotguns barrel down. The oil issue AND that the centre of balance is therefore lower as the heavy bit, the barrels, are at the bottom and the light bit, the stock, at the top.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

What does the OP hope to achieve?

[Gunman]

Obviously with out physically being able to examine it ,I cant see it being a difficult  job to repair and reinforce .Any competent stock man will be able to make it good . Sort of thing I have done many times without any problem and should give many more years of service .

Reasons its happened could many , a natural fault or shake in the wood , a shrinkage and or swelling over time or both due to atmospherics and storage . Stock not being fully tight on the action ,and you would be surprised at how many guns I've seen that had loose stocks for one reason or another , oil in the wood weakening its strength etc.etc.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Gunman

[ditchman]

1 minute ago, Gunman said:

Shouldn't be to difficult a job to repair and reinforce .Any competent stock man will be able to make it good . Sort of thing I have done many times without any problem and should give many more years of service .

Reasons its happened could many , a natural fault or shake in the wood , a shrinkage and or swelling over time or both due to atmospherics and storage . Sock not being fully tight on the action ,and you would be surprised at how many guns I've seen that had loose stocks for one reason or another etc.etc.

would you flood the crack out with thinners first....and let it dry before dribbling the glue in ?

[Gunman]

Yes I would soak the head in thinners over night , then heat  it to sweat out any remaining oils, hair drier is good ,   then repeat till it was as oil free as possible .OK it will need some refinishing but thats part of the job as far as I was concerned.

[Westley]

On 23/03/2023 at 12:41, Fil said:

It's not uncommon for any sidelock 50 years old to have small cracks in the head. The wood gets soft and brittle from oil contamination.  Also if the breech and hand pins are loose and the gun continues to be shot the stock will inevitably crack. Even on younger guns.  I've seen loads of guns with loose stocks and cracks. Owners don't notice and also do not have the gun regularly maintained where the looseness will be addressed. A proper gunsmith or gunmaker knows how to tighten actions on the wood.

The trigger plate pin (I assume the screw you are referring to) should be difficult to remove. As should have been the breech pin. If the breech pin was easy to undo and the hand pin was half a turn out then that could be your answer. Just because the stock may have never been off the gun doesn't mean it wasn't loose on the action.  Doesn't look that bad in the photo but best get it looked at though.

FYI I'm currently working on a No.2 with the very same crack. I'm not the slightest bit concerned and will run some epoxy in it when I reassemble the gun. When it's all tight on the action it won't be an issue. Interesting to see your stock initialled by the stocker. I've stripped hundreds of No.2's and don't recall ever seeing them initialled. I also don't recall the inside of the lock plates being "jewelled" either. 

If it says S for safe in front of the safety catch then it's a No.2. (There were other grades of sidelocks)  If it says SAFE then it's a No.1

Yes, I was a bit confused by the jewelling too   !