Proposed Bully XL ban

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Jolly good, I hope you never have to rethink that.  

Amen 👍

[Sweet11-87]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

This is getting so silly I can't be bothered at the moment to address all your points.

 

im not being funny mate but why start this topic then?  you asked peoples thougth and opinions and for a discussion.  and all youve done is be cleaver with anyone whos opinion doesnt match yours.  

if youre such an autority on the matter why have you even asked?.  spidey senses tell me somones got a massive mental dog

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sweet11-87

[Lloyd90]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

But that misses the fact that ban a bully xl and there are hundreds of other breeds of dog who are just as powerful, have just as much drive and infact, I would argue theres plenty of breeds with even more bite drive, for the scrotes to choose from.

 

We have to acknowledge stats and figures. 
 

If we listen to the media (as I said, I’ve not looked in depth or critiqued the claims), but the claims are that there’s a huge increase in dog bites and attacks from this ‘new’ breed. Not a huge increase in attacks off breeds that have always been around, but these XL bullies. 
 

We can say ‘don’t blame the breed’ but why didn’t the same scrotes own and have the same issues with the other dog breeds before in that case?
 

GSD’s, rotties, etc, whilst all being powerful dogs that can bite, just don’t seem to have attracted the same press … is that due to the stats? 
 

 

[12gauge82]

53 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 

im not being funny mate but why start this topic then?  you asked peoples thougth and opinions and for a discussion.  and all youve done is be cleaver with anyone whos opinion doesnt match yours.  

if youre such an autority on the matter why have you even asked?.  spidey senses tell me somones got a massive mental dog

 

Got to be honest, I genuinely thought it was trolling suggesting that all dogs should wear a muzzle in public.

But your correct that I asked, so fire away.

Appoliges if my replies come accross like I'm trying to be clever, I often appear blunt when I talk in text, I can assure you I'm not like that in person.

Just now, Lloyd90 said:

We have to acknowledge stats and figures. 
 

If we listen to the media (as I said, I’ve not looked in depth or critiqued the claims), but the claims are that there’s a huge increase in dog bites and attacks from this ‘new’ breed. Not a huge increase in attacks off breeds that have always been around, but these XL bullies. 
 

We can say ‘don’t blame the breed’ but why didn’t the same scrotes own and have the same issues with the other dog breeds before in that case?
 

GSD’s, rotties, etc, whilst all being powerful dogs that can bite, just don’t seem to have attracted the same press … is that due to the stats? 
 

 

Good points Lloyd, I'll have a guess at there previously being a wider spread on the dogs idiots were getting hold of, where as these bully XL are now the status dog of choice. Not to mention I should think when one of them goes rouge attacking random members of the public, it grabs alot of headlines and as we know with politicians, soundbites matter, its easy to say they've tackled something and ban a breed, not so easy to tackle the actual issue though.

I haven't looked at the stats so would be interested if anyone has some figures.

[Sweet11-87]

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Got to be honest, I genuinely thought it was trolling suggesting that all dogs should wear a muzzle in public.

But your correct that I asked, so fire away.

Appoliges if my replies come accross like I'm trying to be clever, I often appear blunt when I talk in text, I can assure you I'm not like that in person.

 

nah that fair enough bud, things get lost in text and when its spread across multiple hours and not minutes like in a pub, it can get hard to follow.

but no im not trolling lmao, i think  what you say is true youre damned if you do youre damned if you dont the scrots will just ignore the rules for the fact that its hard to prove and prosecute and when theyt do the sentence is usualy trivial but somthing needs to be done. and i cant think of anything practical outside of muzzle this particular breed or register them but like you say they will just  claim its a cross and use loopholes  but an outright ban stands only to hurt the honest owners. and heavy prosecution should 100% be implemented but its after the fact and not much use to somone thats been set about by one.

[12gauge82]

17 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

nah that fair enough bud, things get lost in text and when its spread across multiple hours and not minutes like in a pub, it can get hard to follow.

but no im not trolling lmao, i think  what you say is true youre damned if you do youre damned if you dont the scrots will just ignore the rules for the fact that its hard to prove and prosecute and when theyt do the sentence is usualy trivial but somthing needs to be done. and i cant think of anything practical outside of muzzle this particular breed or register them but like you say they will just  claim its a cross and use loopholes  but an outright ban stands only to hurt the honest owners. and heavy prosecution should 100% be implemented but its after the fact and not much use to somone thats been set about by one.

Things are certainly getting bad out there with scrotes and even well meaning but clueless owners. I believe a dog licence is the way forwards, with possibly an advanced license for certain breeds.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 I believe a dog licence is the way forwards, with possibly an advanced license for certain breeds.

I struggle with this. Pistols were banned and other guns strictly licensed, but criminals just ignore licensing. Why would they comply with dog licensing?

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I struggle with this. Pistols were banned and other guns strictly licensed, but criminals just ignore licensing. Why would they comply with dog licensing?

I agree, it would be tough to implament and would require frequent stop checks.

The problem is, what's the alternative, breed specific legislation has already been a giant failure, it's directly comparable to the handgun ban, with legal owners turning their guns in and the criminals continuing to shoot people with them.

The only other viable option I can see is to do nothing.

[7daysinaweek]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Got to be honest, I genuinely thought it was trolling suggesting that all dogs should wear a muzzle in public.

But your correct that I asked, so fire away.

Appoliges if my replies come accross like I'm trying to be clever, I often appear blunt when I talk in text, I can assure you I'm not like that in person.

Good points Lloyd, I'll have a guess at there previously being a wider spread on the dogs idiots were getting hold of, where as these bully XL are now the status dog of choice. Not to mention I should think when one of them goes rouge attacking random members of the public, it grabs alot of headlines and as we know with politicians, soundbites matter, its easy to say they've tackled something and ban a breed, not so easy to tackle the actual issue though.

I haven't looked at the stats so would be interested if anyone has some figures.

I live and work in Merseyside and Merseyside records the highest amount of dog bite injuries in the UK at the present time. I would say we see in our unit around 2-3 dog bite injuries every single day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

The last time I asked our medical lead on the numbers of dog bite attendances it was hundreds per month in Merseyside alone because we get the numbers for all presentations to aed, walk in centres, urgent treatment centres and gp's. Just think of the amount of people that get bit and don't present. 

The bites range from being graded as superficial to severe and depending on where and the extent of the injury the individual sustains depends on how the bite is classified. A complex bite may refers to any bite, eg, head, face, neck, hands, gentital areas and feet as these areas are generally much more vascular and have a lesser degree of tissue/muscle mass. Any puncture bite force or tear can inflitrate vein, nerve, artery, tendon and bone more easily. In such cases the associated risk of blood loss, localised infection, bony infections, fractures, sepsis and both short and long term nerve and disabilty impairment are increased. Deep torso wounds may also be classed as complex if they expose or pull away large areas of the skin and muscle that increase the risk of infection and tetnus infection.

Dog bites carry the greatest risk of bite related sepsis in realtion to bites being either human or animal. The reason for this is simply because more people are bitten by dogs than humans or cats. Dogs, cats and humans and many uk mammals have a specific bacteria Capnocytophaga which is mainly responsible for the cause of the sepsis.

For virtually all complex bites pictures are taken and once I have sent them across to the plastic surgeons for review I will then ring and discuss the presentation with the palstic surgeon on call. A plan will be formulated and they may wish to see the patient same day or review in plastics trauma assessment unit the following day or so.  In such cases I will cleanse out the wounds and cover them with antibiotic/tetanus and red flag them for sepsis, neurovascular and circulatory symptoms and if they develop and symptoms to present rapidly at aed.

Patients are always surprised when I inform them that there is a strong likelihood that when they attend to see plastics that they will probably be admitted and put in IV antibitics for a few days. Also there is a likleihood that they will require surgical intervention for a deep cleanse/surgical debridement of the wounds to remove any dead and infected tissue or deep foreign bodies such as broken teeth, soil and debris etc. Any puncture of the skin that results in a fracture to the bone is classed as a open fracture as is a high risk for developing osteomyelitis and is a very seroius bone infection that can be difficult to treat. 

Post bite/injury complications can be a long road for some requiring multiple operations for reconstructive cosmetic surgery, grafting etc and post bite trauma in children is common. Post sepsis dog bites can be a long recovery and result in long term nerve and dexterity complications and these are the reasons why plastic surgeons are so hot on managing these type of wounds. They don't do it for nothing!

For most superficial non complex bites I do not refer and am happy to cleanse out the wound, cover the patient with a oral antibitic, cover with tetanus if required and send them away with advice. Obviously clinical judgment stands and a patient who presents with a superficial bite/bites depending on the amount may require a referral. Sometimes it is in the case of a baby, child or other at risk groups who are also immunocomprimised or have no oversight from a relative such as a frail individual who lives alone.

We are obligated to safeguard and  rightfully so. I have in the past had to ring the police for them to follow up as a urgent safeguard and vist the home of the child. The reason for this being that the parent/parents left the unit having given an innappropriate history that the mechanism of injury does not fit the presenting injury. For example someone saying that the child has been bitten by their cat when the injury is clearly not from a cat. 

In my experience most of the deep heavy traumatic injuries are caused by more powerful dogs as this equates to the size of the bite force and sometimes the strength at which the animal can exert a pulling force if they have gripped on. Don't get me wrong I have seen plenty of multiple bites from smaller mutts that result to the legs ,thighs and the gentital groin areas as many smaller dogs can only jump that height and generally cannot drag a person down unless they are frail or are a smaller child. 

As I have said I can only speak form experience and that the most common dog for heavy inflicted injuries I see are from bull breeds. I have seen some horrendous injuries from them, many occuring when their dog has attacked another dog or another dog has attacked theirs and when they have tried to seperate the bull typre it has clamped down on the owner or other person when trying to seperate them. Other times people are out minding own business such as running, cycling and they just get attacked as they walk past the dog. Bull crosses seem to have that clamp on and don't release temprerament. Speak to any lads who run bull cross lurchers that is the reason they were that popular among the running dog fraternity and still are ,once they get a grip of something it aint going anywhere. Having crossed virtually everything else over greyhounds nothing has come close to the prey drive and sheer will of the bull breeds.

From most patients recollections and I have dealt with hundreds upon hundreds of dog bites is that a common theme is for many will have only one or two injuries as the individual typically screams out or boots the dog and it becomes more wary. Face bites are common as people like to pick up there dog or the doggy is asleep and and they put their face up to it and startle it, resulting in a bite.

Here in Merseyside as I suspect will be the case in many areas that these powerful breeds are not always bought as a pet or social status. For many I am well informed are used for personal protection when the nefarious are out walking their patches.

OFF TO BED NOW!

In work in 6 hours and be dealing with woof woof bites.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Thank you for your knowledgeable explanation.   

[WalkedUp]

6 hours ago, 7daysinaweek said:

I live and work in Merseyside and Merseyside records the highest amount of dog bite injuries in the UK at the present time. I would say we see in our unit around 2-3 dog bite injuries every single day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

….. 

In work in 6 hours and be dealing with woof woof bites.

Fantastic, every word of that post was informative. Thank you for taking the time to write that in such a measured way.

[DannyS]

Ban um and the livestock guardians while we're at it

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, DannyS said:

Ban um and the livestock guardians while we're at it

Yeah and let's ban guns to and that cruel sport of game shooting and while we're at it let's all go vegan 🥴👌

6 hours ago, 7daysinaweek said:

I live and work in Merseyside and Merseyside records the highest amount of dog bite injuries in the UK at the present time. I would say we see in our unit around 2-3 dog bite injuries every single day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

The last time I asked our medical lead on the numbers of dog bite attendances it was hundreds per month in Merseyside alone because we get the numbers for all presentations to aed, walk in centres, urgent treatment centres and gp's. Just think of the amount of people that get bit and don't present. 

The bites range from being graded as superficial to severe and depending on where and the extent of the injury the individual sustains depends on how the bite is classified. A complex bite may refers to any bite, eg, head, face, neck, hands, gentital areas and feet as these areas are generally much more vascular and have a lesser degree of tissue/muscle mass. Any puncture bite force or tear can inflitrate vein, nerve, artery, tendon and bone more easily. In such cases the associated risk of blood loss, localised infection, bony infections, fractures, sepsis and both short and long term nerve and disabilty impairment are increased. Deep torso wounds may also be classed as complex if they expose or pull away large areas of the skin and muscle that increase the risk of infection and tetnus infection.

Dog bites carry the greatest risk of bite related sepsis in realtion to bites being either human or animal. The reason for this is simply because more people are bitten by dogs than humans or cats. Dogs, cats and humans and many uk mammals have a specific bacteria Capnocytophaga which is mainly responsible for the cause of the sepsis.

For virtually all complex bites pictures are taken and once I have sent them across to the plastic surgeons for review I will then ring and discuss the presentation with the palstic surgeon on call. A plan will be formulated and they may wish to see the patient same day or review in plastics trauma assessment unit the following day or so.  In such cases I will cleanse out the wounds and cover them with antibiotic/tetanus and red flag them for sepsis, neurovascular and circulatory symptoms and if they develop and symptoms to present rapidly at aed.

Patients are always surprised when I inform them that there is a strong likelihood that when they attend to see plastics that they will probably be admitted and put in IV antibitics for a few days. Also there is a likleihood that they will require surgical intervention for a deep cleanse/surgical debridement of the wounds to remove any dead and infected tissue or deep foreign bodies such as broken teeth, soil and debris etc. Any puncture of the skin that results in a fracture to the bone is classed as a open fracture as is a high risk for developing osteomyelitis and is a very seroius bone infection that can be difficult to treat. 

Post bite/injury complications can be a long road for some requiring multiple operations for reconstructive cosmetic surgery, grafting etc and post bite trauma in children is common. Post sepsis dog bites can be a long recovery and result in long term nerve and dexterity complications and these are the reasons why plastic surgeons are so hot on managing these type of wounds. They don't do it for nothing!

For most superficial non complex bites I do not refer and am happy to cleanse out the wound, cover the patient with a oral antibitic, cover with tetanus if required and send them away with advice. Obviously clinical judgment stands and a patient who presents with a superficial bite/bites depending on the amount may require a referral. Sometimes it is in the case of a baby, child or other at risk groups who are also immunocomprimised or have no oversight from a relative such as a frail individual who lives alone.

We are obligated to safeguard and  rightfully so. I have in the past had to ring the police for them to follow up as a urgent safeguard and vist the home of the child. The reason for this being that the parent/parents left the unit having given an innappropriate history that the mechanism of injury does not fit the presenting injury. For example someone saying that the child has been bitten by their cat when the injury is clearly not from a cat. 

In my experience most of the deep heavy traumatic injuries are caused by more powerful dogs as this equates to the size of the bite force and sometimes the strength at which the animal can exert a pulling force if they have gripped on. Don't get me wrong I have seen plenty of multiple bites from smaller mutts that result to the legs ,thighs and the gentital groin areas as many smaller dogs can only jump that height and generally cannot drag a person down unless they are frail or are a smaller child. 

As I have said I can only speak form experience and that the most common dog for heavy inflicted injuries I see are from bull breeds. I have seen some horrendous injuries from them, many occuring when their dog has attacked another dog or another dog has attacked theirs and when they have tried to seperate the bull typre it has clamped down on the owner or other person when trying to seperate them. Other times people are out minding own business such as running, cycling and they just get attacked as they walk past the dog. Bull crosses seem to have that clamp on and don't release temprerament. Speak to any lads who run bull cross lurchers that is the reason they were that popular among the running dog fraternity and still are ,once they get a grip of something it aint going anywhere. Having crossed virtually everything else over greyhounds nothing has come close to the prey drive and sheer will of the bull breeds.

From most patients recollections and I have dealt with hundreds upon hundreds of dog bites is that a common theme is for many will have only one or two injuries as the individual typically screams out or boots the dog and it becomes more wary. Face bites are common as people like to pick up there dog or the doggy is asleep and and they put their face up to it and startle it, resulting in a bite.

Here in Merseyside as I suspect will be the case in many areas that these powerful breeds are not always bought as a pet or social status. For many I am well informed are used for personal protection when the nefarious are out walking their patches.

OFF TO BED NOW!

In work in 6 hours and be dealing with woof woof bites.

Thank you very much for such an informative read and the effort you've put into it. I would suspect your area of the country could have a high number of trophy dogs, although it sounds like there are also a huge number of unreported dog bites which is alarming.

[12gauge82]

With regards bull breeds and clamping on a bite, generally it's a myth. Yes they have very powerful Jaws, you've only got to look at their heads to see that, but they have no higher drive to hang on a bite than many other dogs. I could list many dogs that have a far higher drive to bite and hang on, particularly when we're talking on people as a pose other animals. I won't name them openly as the last thing I want to do is start a list of dogs on a public forum for idiots to also tarnish their reputation when they get in the wrong hands. Yet you hear far less cases of dog bites from them despite there being a healthy number in the country due to the type of people who own them. 

[Lloyd90]

Man arrested today for an XL bully and staff cross attacking an 11 year old girl! 

[Sweet11-87]

I know people say its not the breed its the owners and i know certain breeds are desired by the less responsible owners but these bully breeds are responsible or involved in nearly 50% of attacks reported in the uk have a body count of 11 inside 2 years and only make up in the region of 1% of the dog population in the uk.

hard to talk those stats round to me that theyre just another dog breed.

the undesirables have always had the flavour of the month breed but none have rocked up a tally like this one.

in my eyes i apsolutley see fire with this smoke.   another attack this morning.

 

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

I know people say its not the breed its the owners and i know certain breeds are desired by the less responsible owners but these bully breeds are responsible or involved in nearly 50% of attacks reported in the uk have a body count of 11 inside 2 years and only make up in the region of 1% of the dog population in the uk.

hard to talk those stats round to me that theyre just another dog breed.

the undesirables have always had the flavour of the month breed but none have rocked up a tally like this one.

in my eyes i absolutely see fire with this smoke.   another attack this morning.

 

More succinct and polite than perhaps I would have put it.  

[Pushandpull]

Comparisons have been made here and quite widely in the media to the control of firearms. I wonder how many of the commentators know that on the continent in the late 19th century it was normal practice for cyclists to carry small pistols for defence against dogs, including the appropriately named 5.75mm Velo Dog revolver (not unlike a .22 Long).

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

I know people say its not the breed its the owners and i know certain breeds are desired by the less responsible owners but these bully breeds are responsible or involved in nearly 50% of attacks reported in the uk have a body count of 11 inside 2 years and only make up in the region of 1% of the dog population in the uk.

hard to talk those stats round to me that theyre just another dog breed.

the undesirables have always had the flavour of the month breed but none have rocked up a tally like this one.

in my eyes i apsolutley see fire with this smoke.   another attack this morning.

 

The question is, would those stats be comparable if it was the same owners keeping a different breed they thought made them look hard? Because if its yes, banning the breed will achieve nothing.

53 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Comparisons have been made here and quite widely in the media to the control of firearms. I wonder how many of the commentators know that on the continent in the late 19th century it was normal practice for cyclists to carry small pistols for defence against dogs, including the appropriately named 5.75mm Velo Dog revolver (not unlike a .22 Long).

That's news to me, thanks for sharing.

[7daysinaweek]

9 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Thank you for your knowledgeable explanation.   

👍

8 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

Fantastic, every word of that post was informative. Thank you for taking the time to write that in such a measured way.

👍

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Thank you very much for such an informative read and the effort you've put into it. I would suspect your area of the country could have a high number of trophy dogs, although it sounds like there are also a huge number of unreported dog bites which is alarming.

👍

[12gauge82]

I find it interesting that the concensus appears to be ban them and possibly other bull breeds, when that has already been tried and failed.

Do the ban brigade not realise its the same owners causing the issues and over the decades the breed of demon dog of the day has changed, I'm old enough to remember when it was German Shepherds, then rotties, then dobermans, then American pit bull terriers, then Staffordshire terriers and now the bully XL, which isn't even a recognised breed by the way. We also have 3 other banned breeds in this country other than the apbt which is probably not even responsible for a bite, but were banned due to hysteria.

I feel the banning of specific breeds is directly comparable to firearms bans as its often a knee jerk reaction to media hype that punishes the law abiding while the criminals who cause the problems carry on with their criminality.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Okay, so what do the authorities do then?

 

Ban certain people from owning dogs?

Make having a dog not under control a criminal matter?

Make people muzzle their dogs in public?

Make people have their dog on a lead all the time in public?

 

I know none of the above will be to many peoples choice.

[12gauge82]

I just thought I'd add I have no dog in the fight (yes that's my rubbish attempt at a pun 😜) I don't own any bull breed of dog and have no intention to.

I work and train some incredibly special dogs and work around probably the best dogs in their field in the country, possibly even the world and despite the capability of theses dogs, their training and their incredible drive and phisical ability, most are able to be safely walked in public. The nonsense that is spouted about some of these breeds, demonising them saddens me and more worryingly only deflects from the real problem (the owners) which won't be addressed until the government is honest and instead of making media appeasing headlines with their ineffective ban list or decides to ban somewhere north of a hundred dog breeds.

[Sweet11-87]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I find it interesting that the concensus appears to be ban them and possibly other bull breeds, when that has already been tried and failed.

Do the ban brigade not realise its the same owners causing the issues and over the decades the breed of demon dog of the day has changed, I'm old enough to remember when it was German Shepherds, then rotties, then dobermans, then American pit bull terriers, then Staffordshire terriers and now the bully XL, which isn't even a recognised breed by the way. We also have 3 other banned breeds in this country other than the apbt which is probably not even responsible for a bite, but were banned due to hysteria.

I feel the banning of specific breeds is directly comparable to firearms bans as its often a knee jerk reaction to media hype that punishes the law abiding while the criminals who cause the problems carry on with their criminality.

i get what youre saying but most if not al of the previous status dogs were old breeds picked becasue they were intimidating and powerful but were infact old working dogs of purpose like  rotty, the doberman, akita. all of which had a bad reputation with ahrd to find fact and figures.

pit/fighting dogs were bred for sport and theirs a reason they were bred small/medium build.  if you breed strength, fearlessness, stamina, jawpower and a high pain tolorance into a predator its fairly obvious that then breeding it to be XL is gona end in tears. if it had no drawback all pit dogs when it was a legal and popular sport would have been the size of cows.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Okay, so what do the authorities do then?

 

Ban certain people from owning dogs? 

That would be a start, the problem is, how do they identify the appropriate people, particularly if they haven't been on the radar before.

Make having a dog not under control a criminal matter?

It already is if its dangerously out of control.

Make people muzzle their dogs in public?

Ridiculous idea that would be ineffective, who checks they're fitted properly, what about visitors to houses or peoples own kids.

Make people have their dog on a lead all the time in public?

Again complete over reaction and totally unnecessary for probably 90% of owners

I know none of the above will be to many peoples choice.

 

1 minute ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i get what youre saying but most if not al of the previous status dogs were old breeds picked becasue they were intimidating and powerful but were infact old working dogs of purpose like  rotty, the doberman, akita. all of which had a bad reputation with ahrd to find fact and figures.

pit/fighting dogs were bred for sport and theirs a reason they were bred small/medium build.  if you breed strength, fearlessness, stamina, jawpower and a high pain tolorance into a predator its fairly obvious that then breeding it to be XL is gona end in tears. if it had no drawback all pit dogs when it was a legal and popular sport would have been the size of cows.

Pit dogs were bred to fight other animals and generally not people, there are many breeds of dog not currently banned that I would suggest have higher bite drive and yet they're not in the papers, I wonder why?