Auto safety Laurona O/U

[old'un]

Oh dear, think the mods will be along shortly with a bucket of water.

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

It’s just an opinion gained through over 60 years of shooting shotguns in a wide variety of situations. I object to you calling it ignorance, arrogance or particularly snobbery.

That doesn’t explain anything either! 
Start another thread as the OP suggested and we’ll take it from there. Easy. 
Have a read back through some of your comments and you’ll understand why I’ve come to the conclusion of your objections; some of your comments throughout not just this thread but the entire forum simply ooze snobbery….’if you’d learnt to shoot properly’ is just one of many. 

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

That doesn’t explain anything either! 
Start another thread as the OP suggested and we’ll take it from there. Easy. 
Have a read back through some of your comments and you’ll understand why I’ve come to the conclusion of your objections; some of your comments throughout not just this thread but the entire forum simply ooze snobbery….’if you’d learnt to shoot properly’ is just one of many. 

By if you had learnt to shoot properly I meant from a gun down position, pushing off the safety as you mount the gun. As far as I am concerned there is no other way. 
Do not call me snobbish, I find it very offensive.

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, London Best said:

By if you had learnt to shoot properly I meant from a gun down position, pushing off the safety as you mount the gun. As far as I am concerned there is no other way. 
Do not call me snobbish, I find it very offensive.

We’re getting nowhere here, just going round in circles. I’ve already asked you to explain what the difference is between being taught how to shoot clays or game but you won’t or can’t. 
You constantly make comments based on nothing more than opinion, but equally constantly won’t or can’t explain the reason you’ve formed that opinion. 

Unless the mods forbid it I’ll start another thread as you are obviously reluctant to do so; see if we can sort out this ‘tradition’ mentality v common sense. 

[DUNKS]

I look forward to that thread. As a comparatively new shotgun shooter. "compared to some" I would seriously like to hear why you do need a safety at all when shooting clays which is what I do. also I picked up a comment about gun mount. lets have a few words on this please. I do shoot gun down but that's just me so how am I closing my gun incorrectly?

I have my handbag ready.

Edited October 4, 2023 by DUNKS

[London Best]

42 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

how am I closing my gun incorrectly?

I have my handbag ready.

I constantly see people out shooting who close the gun by lifting the barrels to the stock. A shotgun should be closed by holding the barrels pointing to the ground and lifting the toe of the stock, so that any inadvertent discharge on closing will go into the ground.

No handbags necessary, I don’t come on t’internet to argue with anybody.

[B725]

19 minutes ago, London Best said:

I constantly see people out shooting who close the gun by lifting the barrels to the stock. A shotgun should be closed by holding the barrels pointing to the ground and lifting the toe of the stock, so that any inadvertent discharge on closing will go into the ground.

No handbags necessary, I don’t come on t’internet to argue with anybody.

That's exactly how I was shown to close the gun and have done so ever since. 

[decoyman]

Hello Red 696,

Slightly at a tangent, back in the day when I was involved in the gubbings of internals, I recall being told that the Laurona trigger system, being  1 that acts as a single trigger also, was a pig to work on. Obviously that relates to a double trigger gun. 

As a dinosaur, you probably have a more modern design. I would leave as is and just remember to push first.

"The safety was on" causes much merriment in the season and a few relieved birds.

Steve.

[Red696]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

You can’t make a statement like that without backing it up! Explain why he’s an idiot, otherwise it’s just an opinion borne out of either ignorance, arrogance or snobbery. 

please can we drop this bickering, he has apologised for derailing my thread and I’m grateful for that.  Opinions differ but no need to attack each other because of it, there maybe previous bit this is not the thread for that.

28 minutes ago, decoyman said:

Hello Red 696,

Slightly at a tangent, back in the day when I was involved in the gubbings of internals, I recall being told that the Laurona trigger system, being  1 that acts as a single trigger also, was a pig to work on. Obviously that relates to a double trigger gun. 

As a dinosaur, you probably have a more modern design. I would leave as is and just remember to push first.

"The safety was on" causes much merriment in the season and a few relieved birds.

Steve.

It is the double single trigger…. And not an easy alteration to manual safety

[London Best]

40 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Opinions differ but no need to attack each other because of it, there maybe previous bit this is not the thread for that.

 

There is no previous. 
I respect Scully’s opinion on most subjects shooting related, but we always differ on this one.

[DUNKS]

Thank you LB on advice on closing my gun. I did think that was the approved way but I find it difficult to do this in an enclosed cage at my clay ground. What I do wonder is when game shooting and closing a gun in this way, surely you then swing the loaded gun up "safety on of course" Through the line of beaters! Are the beaters always several hundred yards away and safe?

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

I did think that was the approved way but I find it difficult to do this in an enclosed cage at my clay ground.

It can be difficult for a number of reasons, cage in one, but in the 'game shooting' field, it is a difficult technique with a self- opening actioned gun.  See suggested method here; 

 

6 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Are the beaters always several hundred yards away and safe?

When the beaters are close, many guns stand holding their guns 'barrels up', which is what I do.

[Poor Shot]

44 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

When the beaters are close, many guns stand holding their guns 'barrels up', which is what I do.

Agreed. 

I will also stand on peg, gun loaded and barrels up vertically when action is imminent. At any point where the gun must move from the barrels straight up position or the drive has just started the gun will be broken and safe. Gun closed stock upwards when the time comes. 

When walked up the gun is carried broken in the right hand barrels forward, left hand directing dog, holding whistle etc. Upon a flush, the gun is closed with the stock upward and gun mounted in a smooth action. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Poor Shot

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Red696 said:

please can we drop this bickering, he has apologised for derailing my thread and I’m grateful for that.  Opinions differ but no need to attack each other because of it, there maybe previous bit this is not the thread for that.

Cretinous comments such as ‘all shotguns without auto safeties should be melted down’ deserve to be attacked! It smacks of an intolerantly arrogant superiority and is very devisive; there are many with such attitudes on this forum who find it difficult to come to terms with those who replace nonsensical tradition with common sense. 
If people are going to make such stupid comments without being capable of backing up their comments then they deserve to be attacked. 
 

[London Best]

Equally cretinous comments such as I never use a safety catch on any gun also deserve to be called out. 
Over the years I have enjoyed many of your posts and respect many of your opinions, but this one is just stupid. You obviously think you are so safe that you don’t need a safety catch and the unwritten rules don’t apply to you. 
Now, please give it a rest my friend.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, London Best said:

Equally cretinous comments such as I never use a safety catch on any gun also deserve to be called out. 
Over the years I have enjoyed many of your posts and respect many of your opinions, but this one is just stupid. You obviously think you are so safe that you don’t need a safety catch and the unwritten rules don’t apply to you. 
Now, please give it a rest my friend.

Some guns don’t have safeties. 🤷‍♂️

If your gun handling is faultless you don’t need a safety. You haven’t been able to back up any of your claims with any sort of explanation, and have proved incapable of answering any of the questions asked, so why you continue to post is beyond me. 
 

[Newbie to this]

This all reminds me of the scene in Black Hawk Down

[JohnfromUK]

On 04/10/2023 at 12:07, London Best said:

I constantly see people out shooting who close the gun by lifting the barrels to the stock. A shotgun should be closed by holding the barrels pointing to the ground and lifting the toe of the stock, so that any inadvertent discharge on closing will go into the ground.

I agree with you and was very disappointed by a recent video (can't link to it as it was on FaceBook) of a well known Gun Dealers reviewing the AyA no 2 as a gun (which they sell) for the 'coming pheasant season' (i.e. as a game gun) and shooting a couple of incoming clays with it.

This was in a cage on a clay ground stand - Gun held in a most peculiar way, two cartridges in and gun barrels raised to snap shut passing through horizontally forward as they do so .........

Sadly, the message won't get across when people promoting guns and shooting don't even make any attempt to get it right.

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree with you and was very disappointed by a recent video (can't link to it as it was on FaceBook) of a well known Gun Dealers reviewing the AyA no 2 as a gun (which they sell) for the 'coming pheasant season' (i.e. as a game gun) and shooting a couple of incoming clays with it.

This was in a cage on a clay ground stand - Gun held in a most peculiar way, two cartridges in and gun barrels raised to snap shut passing through horizontally forward as they do so .........

Sadly, the message won't get across when people promoting guns and shooting don't even make any attempt to get it right.

I did notice the video in question. 
The well known Gun a Dealer is also a well known Idiot.

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, London Best said:

I did notice the video in question. 
The well known Gun a Dealer is also a well known Idiot.

Never had any dealings with them.   The clip I posted above (not the same dealer) shows the need on a self opener to use a different technique - and how that can be done whilst still keeping the barrels down.

Edited October 10, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[London Best]

41 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Never had any dealings with them.   The clip I posted above (not the same dealer) shows the need on a self opener to use a different technique - and how that can be done whilst still keeping the barrels down.

That clip is pretty well only applicable to the Purdey action (or Purdey/Beesley style actions). 
The H&H self opener is completely different (as I am sure you will know), and is much easier to close. 
In the Holland 1922 pattern the fall of the barrels cocks the mainsprings, and is done under pressure from the auxiliary self-opening spring. Closing the barrels cocks the ejector springs and compresses the coil spring for the self-opening mechanism. 
I believe I am right in saying that, in a Beesley action, closing the barrels cocks everything.

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, London Best said:

I believe I am right in saying that, in a Beesley action, closing the barrels cocks everything.

That is correct. 

The Beesley action (virtually all Purdeys,  Henry Atkin "Spring Opener" models, and a small handful of others - Ignacio Ugartechea model 1040, AyA Senior, and a very few others) varies a lot.  When I bought my Atkin I handled quite a number and the variation was from smooth and quite easy, to lumpy and abrupt.  (The Atkin is reputedly slightly easier that the Purdey due to minor geometry and a Holland type ejector system).

I have not handled a Holland self opener, but have handled an AyA on their system.  My recollection was that it was a very similar closing effort to my Atkin, but I didn't have them side by side).

[London Best]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is correct. 

The Beesley action (virtually all Purdeys,  Henry Atkin "Spring Opener" models, and a small handful of others - Ignacio Ugartechea model 1040, AyA Senior, and a very few others) varies a lot.  When I bought my Atkin I handled quite a number and the variation was from smooth and quite easy, to lumpy and abrupt.  (The Atkin is reputedly slightly easier that the Purdey due to minor geometry and a Holland type ejector system).

I have not handled a Holland self opener, but have handled an AyA on their system.  My recollection was that it was a very similar closing effort to my Atkin, but I didn't have them side by side).

Despite handling many self-opening guns (as a loader),   I find myself unable to comment on actions other than Purdey’s /Holland’s as all those within my experience were of those types.

I found the Holland to be seemingly as easy to close as a normal ‘non self-opener’ action. I think the ‘Southgate’ type ejectors assist with final compression of the self opening spring as they cam over the vee ejector springs. (Just my theory, I could be wrong).

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

I think the ‘Southgate’ type ejectors assist with final compression of the self opening spring as they cam over the vee ejector springs. (Just my theory, I could be wrong).

You could well be right.  The significant difference between the Atkin and the Purdey is that the Atkin has Southgate type ejectors (albeit slightly differently tripped using a lever from the sear) whereas the Purdey uses a Wem design I believe.  I have read that is the reason the Atkin is rather easier to close, but it does need the 'Beesley' type technique really.

Other than Purdey (many thousands made) and Atkin spring openers (a few 100's made) you would be unlikely to come across another Beesley as they are very few and far between.  The Baker 12/20 design was used by a few (Lancaster, Powell I think to name two) but I have only handled one and it was a full left hander ......

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Baker 12/20 design was used by a few (Lancaster, Powell I think to name two) but I have only handled one and it was a full left hander ......

I did handle a 12/20. From memory (now fading!) it was signed as Grant, but I may have forgotten and it could have been a Lancaster. At the time I was loading for Ken Duglan, the then owner of Atkin, Grant and Lang and they had just ‘re-manufactured’  the gun for an American client. The gun’s main claim to fame was that it was originally made for J.P. Morgan. Obviously, it was a very beautiful gun.