Webley and Scott imperial

[BrowningDJC]

Hi all, has anyone got one of these? I think the colour hardening looks very nice, tempted with one in 16 bore. 

[button]

Would think long and hard before parting with cash for one of them, a Turkish gun with an English brand would be a non starter for me

[enfieldspares]

OK. I am  maybe, I do hope not, a snob which as an Irishman once said so are all the English. For me what a sidelock should have or be is fitted with a forend secured by an Anson rod and stcoked up to the fences. It should also be fully engraved over every living inch of its surface. The Imperial fails my expectations on all three tests.

The old and seldom now seen AYA Counytryman does the job far better if you want a "low price" sidelock where there is minimal engraving. If you want a sidelock with full cover engraving the Arietta series sold by Gunmark such as the Viscount do it best of all save, at a price, the AYA No 1. 

The only feature of the Imperial is that it has three inch chambers so can take the newly emerging steel three inch loads that use that longer case to duplicate at lower pressures a standard "old" 2 3/4" load as does Gamebore's Silver Steel with 1 1/8 ounces of steel #4 in a three inch case.

But as AFAIK the 16 bore is not loaded by anyone in steel in a three inch case so that feature offers no benefit at all. In fact a disbenefit as firing 2 3/4" steel in a 3" chambered gun is, supposedly, not optimum for either gun or cartridge.

So my advice for a future proof side by side would be to buy a quality boxlock from a quality maker. That to me would be maybe a Beretta side by side or one of the Turkish boxlock side by side guns. And pass by on the Imperial and more so in 16 bore.

I've no prejudice against the gauge and presently own a 1960's Browning A-5 and an easy-opening French Manufrance boxlock ejector in 16 bore and at one time had a pair of single trigger sidelock self-openers the same. Plus, still, two AYA Cosmos 16 bore. But this Imperial?

Not at all a thing you should consider IMHO. Despite what some You Tube contributors may say. 

£2,000 plus wasted when for half that you could get something that does the job better and doesn't pretend to be anything that it isn't. Heck for a quarter of that money you've the pick of any decent AYA No4 in 16 or 12 (and the 16 on a proper sized action) or an AYA Yeoman Ejector in 12 bore.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by enfieldspares

[BrowningDJC]

Thanks for the in depth reply. Im not really in the market for a 12, just fancy a 16. 
A Webley 700 in 16 would be ideal, but locating a good one with 2 3/4 chambers isn’t easy. 

[enfieldspares]

19 minutes ago, BrowningDJC said:

Thanks for the in depth reply. Im not really in the market for a 12, just fancy a 16. 
A Webley 700 in 16 would be ideal, but locating a good one with 2 3/4 chambers isn’t easy. 

AFAIK all the later Webley 700 in 12, 16, 20 were made with then then more usual 2 3/4" chambers? 

Holt's have this AYA No2:

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1513+&refno=++202386&saletype=

And these two Arietta

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1560+&refno=++208838&saletype=

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1561+&refno=++208620&saletype=

Although again it's my opinion only 6lbs 12 ounces side by side 16 bore rather defeats the point of having a 12 bore which, ideally, should weigh about 6lbs 4 ounces.

Also I'd strongly urge against any Webley 700 as going forward long term AYA parts are all available from ASI and being ready made would only need to be fitted. Webley 700 parts are likely if you are unlucky to need to be bespoke made and then fitted. That will be expensive.

Edited October 20, 2023 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

But as AFAIK the 16 bore is not loaded by anyone in steel in a three inch case 

 

 

AFAIK, and I may be wrong, the three inch 16 bore does not exist???

[BrowningDJC]

40 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

AFAIK all the later Webley 700 in 12, 16, 20 were made with then then more usual 2 3/4" chambers? 

Holt's have this AYA No2:

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1513+&refno=++202386&saletype=

And these two Arietta

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1560+&refno=++208838&saletype=

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A1123+++1561+&refno=++208620&saletype=

Although again it's my opinion only 6lbs 12 ounces side by side 16 bore rather defeats the point of having a 12 bore which, ideally, should weigh about 6lbs 4 ounces.

Also I'd strongly urge against any Webley 700 as going forward long term AYA parts are all available from ASI and being ready made would only need to be fitted. Webley 700 parts are likely if you are unlucky to need to be bespoke made and then fitted. That will be expensive.

Yes I believe all the later 700’s are 2 3/4, I do have a 12 bore version from the mid 70’s which is 2 3/4, although so far I’ve only found earlier 2 1/2 16 bores for sale. Maybe they made less and less 16’s as time went on. 

Thanks for the links, some nice guns and some food for thought. 

[enfieldspares]

35 minutes ago, London Best said:

AFAIK, and I may be wrong, the three inch 16 bore does not exist???

I think yes, you and me, we are right as far as conventional paper case cartridges and their successor plastic equivalents. However never say never and all brass 16 bore 3" cartridges apparently did exist?

https://www.oldammo.com/january14.htm

Edited October 20, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Pushandpull]

I had a three inch 16 bore paper case, I believe Alphamax, in my small collection which I gave away some years ago. I recall seeing a Greener 3" 16 bore gun for sale in a shop somewhere east of Lincoln about thirty years ago. I was there hoping to buy an 8 bore so was not in the market. So these things exit.

[grahamch]

Be much better going for an Aya no2 in 16- far better built than most of the competition

[Gunman]

As a former employee of Webley |& Scott , from the days when they actually made guns , may I say NOOOOOOOOO !

Sorry I just hate these and others who badge up imported guns with great old English names. 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Gunman said:

As a former employee of Webley |& Scott , from the days when they actually made guns , may I say NOOOOOOOOO !

Sorry I just hate these and others who badge up imported guns with great old English names. 

I agree. It is no more a "Webley" than is, say, a "Made in China" MG. There's no direct connection that is unbroken as say with Boss and the Robertson brothers and their successors or Holland's and their new owner Beretta. I really cannot see why makers don't have confidence in their own product so that they don't need to peddle it under another name. The same as if I set myself up as William Tranter (as someone on Price Street once did). I'm no more connected with William Tranter than I am with Dr. Who!

[dipper]

A chap on this forum lived in Scotland was after some blue dot that I had  He was passing through Lancashire and he called to collect it .this was a few years ago he told me he had a 3” greener .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, dipper said:

A chap on this forum lived in Scotland was after some blue dot that I had  He was passing through Lancashire and he called to collect it .this was a few years ago he told me he had a 3” greener.

He was trying to get you out for a date.   

[Townie]

On 20/10/2023 at 11:57, BrowningDJC said:

Thanks for the in depth reply. Im not really in the market for a 12, just fancy a 16. 
A Webley 700 in 16 would be ideal, but locating a good one with 2 3/4 chambers isn’t easy. 

I bought a 700 16b new in the late 70s, which I think was towards the end of Webley & Scott's existence. All 16b cartridges I bought were 2 1/2" and I don't think 2 3/4" existed at the time.

[Stimo22]

22 minutes ago, Townie said:

I bought a 700 16b new in the late 70s, which I think was towards the end of Webley & Scott's existence. All 16b cartridges I bought were 2 1/2" and I don't think 2 3/4" existed at the time.

My 1936 W W Greener has 2 3/4 inch chambers so the cartridge must have been available 

[Gunman]

In the 70's W& S did make 16 bore 700's but these were comparatively rare and would only be made to order as were 20 and 28 bore's , a lot of which were made for the US with 26" barrels . In 1970 there was a 26 week delivery wait as sales out stripped factory capacity . This time dropped in the mid to late 70's when guns were being made for stock , but as 16's were not popular at that time there were very few made .

 

 

[Townie]

That's v interesting. Mine had 26" barrels and I never saw another one, which fits. Could never get on with it as it was far too lively. Nice looking gun though.

On 23/10/2023 at 11:59, Stimo22 said:

My 1936 W W Greener has 2 3/4 inch chambers so the cartridge must have been available 

I stand corrected! Most gun shops at the time didn't seem to have the cartridges, so I took whatever I could find without worrying too much about them. I think they were mostly 15/16 oz loads, generally. But it was over 40 years ago.

[London Best]

39 minutes ago, Townie said:

That's v interesting. Mine had 26" barrels and I never saw another one, which fits. Could never get on with it as it was far too lively. Nice looking gun though.

I stand corrected! Most gun shops at the time didn't seem to have the cartridges, so I took whatever I could find without worrying too much about them. I think they were mostly 15/16 oz loads, generally. But it was over 40 years ago.

Eley “Alphamax” were available in the ‘60’s/‘70’s in 16 bore with a 1 1/8 oz load.

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Eley “Alphamax” were available in the ‘60’s/‘70’s in 16 bore with a 1 1/8 oz load.

.... as published in the Parker Hale 1958 catalogue:

Right hand columns show basic price & purchase tax.

[Townie]

2 hours ago, McSpredder said:

.... as published in the Parker Hale 1958 catalogue:

Right hand columns show basic price & purchase tax.

Interesting! I've just had a look at an inflation calculator and £3 in 1958 is £58 now. So £15 a box. £14 for the 4g is £272 - so about £75 a box.

[London Best]

10 hours ago, Townie said:

Interesting! I've just had a look at an inflation calculator and £3 in 1958 is £58 now. So £15 a box. £14 for the 4g is £272 - so about £75 a box.

Don’t forget the purchase tax (VAT!), 

That made them £3 17s 7d, or nearly £4/100.

And folks moan that cartridges are expensive now!

Edited October 25, 2023 by London Best

[enfieldspares]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

Don’t forget the purchase tax (VAT!), 

That made them £3 17s 7d, or nearly £4/100.

And folks moan that cartridges are expensive now!

Exactly. In 2023 work for an hour on minimum wage and youv'e the money for a box of twenty-five and a cup of tea in the clubhouse after your round of skeet of sporting or what ever. £4 in 1958 is maybe a day's work.

[London Best]

Just now, enfieldspares said:

£4 in 1958 is maybe a day's work.

My father was a police Constable in 1958. 
Earning under £10/week.

[McSpredder]

Shotgun prices from the same 1958 catalogue.    That year I paid a retired headkeeper £4 for a Harrington & Richardson S/B .410  (big step up from my BSA Cadet).