19 year old shot at a clay range

[Westley]

1 hour ago, sportsbob said:

I almost exclusively use a semi auto and have done so for over 30 years, the scenario you describe has never happened to me nor have I heard of it happening to anyone else. The probability is that it was simply a complete lack of safe handling.

As I said, it can happen with ANY gun. I would add that in ALL cases that I have seen recently,  it involved a break open gun.

[oowee]

This is awful. I hope the woman makes it through. 

Loaded or unloaded the barrel should not be pointing anywhere towards someone else. 

[Rem260]

4 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

Is it possible it might have been a semi auto if the first cartridge goes off finger still on trigger then the second will fire also it could be one of them arranged days for people who don't shoot just a thought 

Only if someone deliberately tampered with the gun. I'm no gunsmith but if it was easy to make a semi auto a full auto by a part wearing out or failing then we would of heard of it by now.

[steve_b_wales]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

This is awful. I hope the woman makes it through. 

Loaded or unloaded the barrel should not be pointing anywhere towards someone else. 

I've been on clay shooting ranges, on DTL and many times, someones shotgun has 'gone off' but the barrel was pointing to the ground. This was ALWAYS due to a finger on the trigger! 

[miki]

My guess is they were novices, possibly first time shooters, she hit the target with her first shot after both of them missing everything before and she dropped the gun out of her shoulder and turned round to face her mate in a state of high excitement ....  boom.

I hope the girl recovers from her injuries and the girl who (accidentaly) shot her recovers too.

[Rim Fire]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

THIS can happen with ANY gun  !

Instantly, semi auto's get the blame   🙄

We are ALL second guessing, and I doubt the full story will ever be heard, unless someone living near the ground and posts on here, learns the full story. We ALL see it at grounds every week, but how many will challenge the behaviour  ? Only this week I had occasion to speak to someone regarding 'trying to eject the fired cases into the bin' !  Last week it was 2 newcomers wearing their bloomin guns as scarves, except they were holding the stocks, with the barrels facing backwards. WHY are people afraid to use a gunslip ? They take their gun out of the slip in the car park, then chuck it in the car. My guns are immaculate in condition, due in no small part to their being slipped, unless in use.

Where has anybody said it was a semi auto it was a suggestion as for second guessing don't we do that all the time with most threads 

 

2 hours ago, sportsbob said:

I almost exclusively use a semi auto and have done so for over 30 years, the scenario you describe has never happened to me nor have I heard of it happening to anyone else. The probability is that it was simply a complete lack of safe handling.

   it may well have been but because it hasn't happened to you doesn't  mean it hasn't happened as been said it can happen with any gun 

[sportsbob]

9 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Where has anybody said it was a semi auto it was a suggestion as for second guessing don't we do that all the time with most threads 

 

   it may well have been but because it hasn't happened to you doesn't  mean it hasn't happened as been said it can happen with any gun 

Quote

"The probability is that it was simply a complete lack of safe handling. "

Do you have any mechanical understanding as to the different types of a semi auto shotgun ? ....  thought not. 

This thread is spiralling down the same route as most where the unknowing argue a point based on ignorance

10 minutes ago, miki said:

My guess is they were novices, possibly first time shooters, she hit the target with her first shot after both of them missing everything before and she dropped the gun out of her shoulder and turned round to face her mate in a state of high excitement ....  boom.

I hope the girl recovers from her injuries and the girl who (accidentaly) shot her recovers too.

This suggestion is probably the closest to the truth yet.

Edited December 8, 2023 by sportsbob

[Mice!]

33 minutes ago, miki said:

My guess is they were novices, possibly first time shooters, she hit the target with her first shot after both of them missing everything before and she dropped the gun out of her shoulder and turned round to face her mate in a state of high excitement ....  boom.

I hope the girl recovers from her injuries and the girl who (accidentaly) shot her recovers too.

Sounds very likely and such a shame. 

I was shooting clays with a borrowed semi auto probably 20 years ago, two or three times the gun didn't fire, I'd just stay in position and each time someone else shouted out then came over and made the gun safe before the gun was put away.

Tragically accidents can happen,  make sure you challenge any bad gun practice you see.

[Poor Shot]

Terrible situation for all involved. A woman with life changing injuries, another who will have to live with the consequences of her actions for the rest of her life and likely also an instructor who failed in keeping them safe and also has to carry that for the rest of their lives. 

Any idea what the shooter and possible instructor could potentially be facing from the law? 

I often see shooting ground employees who are there on minimum wage to fill traps, cut grass, general dogs body as well as host groups for hen do's and other parties. Unless properly trained and renumerated, it's not a job I'd want to do (More an observation than an assumption of the case in this particular situation). 

[Rim Fire]

3 hours ago, sportsbob said:

Do you have any mechanical understanding as to the different types of a semi auto shotgun ? ....  thought not. 

Why do you need any mechanical understanding  to know that if you accidentally discharge  a shotgun that the recoil if finger left on the trigger can discharge again this i do know for a fact as i have seen it done after  50 plus yrs shooting one you just got a bug up your ;'$5 because i suggested it MIGHT have been a semi auto 🤷‍♀️ we are all second guessing so calm down sefton 

it makes no difference what type of shotgun it was it is an horrific accident 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Rim Fire

[Agriv8]

My thoughts go to the youngster and all at the club who had to deal with it. 
 

We pulled a lad up at Coniston who swung the gun round so we were looking down the barrel to eject the emptied into the bin. Was very taken aback by us shouting at him to point a closed gun into the clay ground. He protested that he had shot 2 shots ! any gun should be broken and cartridge removed while the gun is pointing towards the safety of the shooting area  . No if or buts in my book. Almost first lesson of shooting!

in the case of a semi’s auto bolt drawn back and visual check of breach exit cage with barrel pointing upwards 

Fingers crossed she pulls through I believe we all have a duty to promote safe gun handling and challenge those that fall bellow that safe standard . something that was backed up when we updated the coniston team to the events we witnessed!

Agriv8

[Rim Fire]

Teenager shot in ‘freak accident’ while clay pigeon shooting

A 19-year-old woman was hospitalised in Glasgow for gunshot wounds to her hip and stomach

Mark Macaskill5 December 2023 • 6:17pm

A teenager is fighting for her life after being shot in a freak accident at a Scottish gun club.

The victim, a 19-year-old woman, suffered gunshot wounds to her hip and stomach after being hit by a stray shot from a teammate during a clay pigeon competition on Sunday.

She was treated by a specialist trauma team at the scene in Tarbert, Argyll and airlifted to Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow.

Police said there were not believed to be any suspicious circumstances.

According to the Scottish Sun, the woman thought to have accidentally fired the shot is a fellow gun club member believed to be aged in her 40s.

Both had been competing in Sunday’s event at Tarbert Shooting Club.

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The women are understood to have been in the same team and taking part in the Winter League competition when the incident happened around 90 minutes into the tournament.

A source close to the incident said: “It was a complete freak accident, everyone is absolutely devastated. There’s nothing untoward about it at all. It was a freak thing that happened. The gun just went off.”

Alastair Redman, councillor for Kintyre and the Islands ward, said: “Tragically accidents do still happen.”

He added: “This comes as a huge shock – our thoughts and prayers are with my constituent that was injured in this tragic accident and her family. Accidents like these are rare and firearms operators are very professional and safe in their conduct.”

The website for the gun club, based on the shores of Loch Fyne, states that they have “qualified instructors” and offer “safe and fun clay pigeon shooting”. As well as providing shoots for their members, they also cater for stag and hen parties and corporate days.

A Scottish Ambulance Service spokesman said: “We received a call on December 3 to attend an incident in Tarbert. An ambulance and air ambulance with a trauma team were dispatched to the scene and one patient was transported by air to the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow

[Rem260]

44 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Why do you need any mechanical understanding  to know that if you accidentally discharge  a shotgun that the recoil if finger left on the trigger can discharge again this i do know for a fact as i have seen it done after  50 plus yrs shooting one you just got a bug up your ;'$5 because i suggested it MIGHT have been a semi auto 🤷‍♀️ we are all second guessing so calm down sefton 

it makes no difference what type of shotgun it was it is an horrific accident 

Are you saying it was a mechanical firing of the gun or a flinch reaction requiring the shooter to release the trigger and reapply the pulling of the trigger.

[Westley]

I have been an Instructor for more years than I care to remember . I would not like to guess how many Corporate, Stag and Hen do's I  have done, but it is one hell of a lot. I will only load (yes,I load the gun) 1 round at a time. I am ALWAYS in a position to grab the gun, if the need arises. I use a semi auto, IF the group are Youngsters or Females. As the lesson progresses, I will only introduce a second cartridge when I deem it appropriate to do so. This method has served me well thus far. I have worked at several grounds over the years and have often been criticised for "Taking too long" with the group. Nowadays time is money and the more groups I can rush through and get onto the next one, means more money coming in. I argue that if each person in my group is paying often upwards of £100, they deserve to be treated fairly by me, and if that means spending a bit more time with them, so be it. This does not sit very well with some grounds, which has led to my all but giving up the Instructor's  job. I still do occasional sessions, but to my rules and not the Grounds. If you are pushing to get as many through as you can in the day, it is bound to lead to cutting corners. I am NOT suggesting this has happened in this incident by any means, but merely offering an 'inside' perspective. I have thoroughly enjoyed the experiences of Instructing over the years and I know a lot of those people, are now shooters in their own right.

[Agriv8]

Accidentally discharge of a shotgun into a clay ground full of clay traps happens it has happened to me .

A closed gun should never point at anyone regardless of it it’s loaded or not this is none negotiable!

Agriv8

[1Ab]

A shame this happened, hope she recovers. 

I have seen a fews scenarios where this could happen. Often I have seen beginners on their first or second shoot put cartridges in while waiting for the stand. 

Things happen people get complacent in the excitement. I myself have made a monumental error at a clay ground that I will never forget. As safe as we all try to behave when shooting accidents happen.  

[Rim Fire]

41 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

 a flinch reaction requiring the shooter to release the trigger and reapply the pulling of the trigger.

This is what i was thinking     But as you can see another report is that it was a clay comp and both females was experience clay shooter so that would imply that it was an over and under shotgun  

Edited December 8, 2023 by Rim Fire

[McSpredder]

Might the two shots have been an almost instant bang-bang?  

I have seen that happen when an ordinary single-trigger O/U was being held rather loosely in the hands (not against the shoulder).   The gun moved back under recoil from the first barrel (so that the shooter effectively released the trigger) and then moved forward again to make contact with the trigger finger and discharge the other barrel.

In that instance the gun was being held in front of the man’s chest, pointing skywards, so there was no danger to anybody, but it gave him a bit of a shock.

Why was he doing that?   He just wanted to fire a shot into the air and scare some birds, something he had done dozens of times with his old double-trigger gun.

[dabbers]

what is the investigative proceedure is it health and safety ,or Police,but no matter who it is the findings should be made aware to shooting grounds and associations ,so that it never happens again ,,certainly made me think twice today when i was shooting dtl.

[harkom]

"the gun just went off"  ..... how many times have we seen exactly those words after a shooting accident?

[Nublue 22]

Just reading, fingers crossed she gets well soon. 

[Westley]

2 hours ago, dabbers said:

what is the investigative proceedure is it health and safety ,or Police,but no matter who it is the findings should be made aware to shooting grounds and associations ,so that it never happens again ,,certainly made me think twice today when i was shooting dtl.

It used to be both. I had 2 'newcomers' come to the shooting ground that I ran. They said that neither of them had ever shot before. I explained that they would need to book a few lessons before we would allow them to shoot unsupervised.  They continued to wander around the ground asking questions of the other shooters.  I eventually took 2 pair of ear defenders and went to them. After explaining that they were free to wander around the ground as long as they wore the ear and eye protection I was giving them. I asked if they'd be willing to tell me why they were there. Transpired they were Health and Safety investigators.  They were investigating an incident at another shooting ground and wanted to learn more about the access to shooting.

[GHE]

4 hours ago, Westley said:

I have been an Instructor for more years than I care to remember . I would not like to guess how many Corporate, Stag and Hen do's I  have done, but it is one hell of a lot. I will only load (yes,I load the gun) 1 round at a time. I am ALWAYS in a position to grab the gun, if the need arises. I use a semi auto, IF the group are Youngsters or Females. As the lesson progresses, I will only introduce a second cartridge when I deem it appropriate to do so. This method has served me well thus far. I have worked at several grounds over the years and have often been criticised for "Taking too long" with the group. Nowadays time is money and the more groups I can rush through and get onto the next one, means more money coming in. I argue that if each person in my group is paying often upwards of £100, they deserve to be treated fairly by me, and if that means spending a bit more time with them, so be it. This does not sit very well with some grounds, which has led to my all but giving up the Instructor's  job. I still do occasional sessions, but to my rules and not the Grounds. If you are pushing to get as many through as you can in the day, it is bound to lead to cutting corners. I am NOT suggesting this has happened in this incident by any means, but merely offering an 'inside' perspective. I have thoroughly enjoyed the experiences of Instructing over the years and I know a lot of those people, are now shooters in their own right.

Fair enough, you follow and insist upon correct safety procedures with the beginners who you instruct/supervise, nothing to criticise there . . .

But, in my experience, most of the unsafe gun handling comes from very experienced shooters who should know better and who, when pulled up over this, will never accept that they have done anything wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that there can never be minor accidents with shotguns, shooting is only safe because it is potentially extremely dangerous, so everyone is watching everyone else like a hawk and acts as a safety officer when needed.

We don't know what happened here and probably never will, but it's very likely that the shooter had a gun that was loaded when it should have been empty, and that it was also pointed in an unsafe direction - two very dangerous practices that, for some reason, nobody else seems to have noticed!

Here's an example of unsafe gun handling from someone who should have known better . . .

 

[Agriv8]

I agree ghe and if that gun was on our shoot I would ask the gun to be broken regardless of if it’s loaded or the the excuse of being the queens husband. But at least the gun is pointing to the ground and yes the older generation are in the “well I haven’t shot anybody yet ! “  but the accident here was at a clay ground no excuses . 
 

another way of putting it is safety in clay shooting and out In the field requires us all to follow basic safety rules these accidents are few and far between but if we ignore the basics of gun safety those risks become unacceptable. In the case a 19 year old has been shot by a fellow shooter in a situation that should not have been allowed.

We all have a duty to ensure these incidents are very rare accidents!

Agriv8

 

18 minutes ago, GHE said:

Fair enough, you follow and insist upon correct safety procedures with the beginners who you instruct/supervise, nothing to criticise there . . .

But, in my experience, most of the unsafe gun handling comes from very experienced shooters who should know better and who, when pulled up over this, will never accept that they have done anything wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that there can never be minor accidents with shotguns, shooting is only safe because it is potentially extremely dangerous, so everyone is watching everyone else like a hawk and acts as a safety officer when needed.

We don't know what happened here and probably never will, but it's very likely that the shooter had a gun that was loaded when it should have been empty, and that it was also pointed in an unsafe direction - two very dangerous practices that, for some reason, nobody else seems to have noticed!

Here's an example of unsafe gun handling from someone who should have known better . . .

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Agriv8

[Westley]

Most of the YouTube videos' are classic examples of poor gun handling, carried out by people who SHOULD know better. When you are waving a usually broken gun around, extolling its virtues to a camera,  WHY is your finger on the trigger  ?  "Wood is good" is a good motto to remember  ! I have even witnessed videos of closing loaded guns, yep.....the finger is STILL on the trigger. These are the er  'Experts'   🙄