A Plea for Perspective

[badgerman]

I would like to make a point in response to the many posts currently being made concerning immigration and ethnic integration. the reason i feel so strongly about this is because i despise antis - let me explain.

 

the problem with antis is not that they dont like people killing animals, whilst i do, (of course only in the right circumstances) but rather it is their method of argument against what we do. beyond the emotive powers of people, their argument rests on one crucial element - ignorance. this is the crux of it, without it they have nothing but blind faith, in the face of coherent rational argument (that would be us!).

 

if you break down and examine the eco-system in britain, it is clear nature cannot sustain itself in its current form without human intervention - this is largely because of our intervention over thousands of years, whether it be over-hunting (which we have now come to terms with and understand) resulting in the removal of crucial elements of food chains, i.e. predators etc. once a species is entirely removed by us, we must then stand in in place of that creature, and in some way attempt to reproduce its role. i needn’t expand further on the role of shooting, as we are all aware of the natural and economical benefits of everything from driven shoots to stalking to decoying, other than to say it is necessary, the government recognises this, and all that is necessary to protect this is to ensure no poor soul is left in ignorance and allowed to travel the road to the LACS. (and yes of course i realise this is the problem we will always face, and it is a tragedy).

 

However, for all shooters among us, if you believe the above to be correct - and i fail to see how you could not appreciate it - then i call many of you hypocrites. in life i encounter few people worse than those who pursue and encourage nonsense, those who do not take it upon themselves to consider anything from another point of view, who clearly do not believe in the rational and logical. this is not to say let us exclude emotion from our arguments, but it is vital we are not blinded by it.

 

the problem with this country is not the dirty muzzers, scrounging somalians or pilfering poles. but clearly we do have problems, and we need only look at all the previous posts to see what they are, so i won't reiterate them but respond to a few.

 

immigration - entirely necessary. many of us are from the country, and if not then at least can appreciate the countryside and those who run their livelihoods there. - are you going to pick apples for a career? no. and neither will i. for vast areas of farming and agriculture, immigrant labour has been the saviour for many a money-losing farmer. this is fact.

but too many people ignore this and concentrate on those who 'steal' jobs, and in fact i sympathise with this view in many ways. for those whose careers depend on the trades, eastern european builders are under-cutting thousands, but is it their fault? i doubt the welsh miners will ever forgive thatcher, but that is capitalism, it is the world we live in and to turn our backs on it is to condemn ourselves to economic backwardness. it is brutal, and we can make provisions to ease it but it is ultimately inevitable.

 

Muslims - muslims are not suicide bombers, vandals and awkward scum. however, there are a minority of fanatics who misinterpret religious teaching, who go against the majority and these people need to be dealt with harshly, locked away and isolated from society. people attempting to change british values and traditions i also believe should be given a good slap, winter festivals and the like makes my blood boil, but is it really the desire of ethnic minorities? well all surveys say no, rather it is the fault of over-zealous councilors and the rest of the PC brigade, the government needs to shake this up and support britishness. integration is not just up to us, to bend over backwards to accommodate other religious values, it is the immigrants job also. i am appalled at cases of christian white britons being banned from eating their lunch at their desks during ramadan for fear of upsetting muslim workers, but i do not believe the fault lies with them, but with those in charge. what they fail to understand is rather than building integration, they breed resentment where it needn't be.

 

So where will britain be in 20 years time? well in 20 years i will be 40, and as far as i'm concerned the future looks good. it will be a time of change and of course many problems, but nothing that cannot be overcome with the simple aid of common sense, and the backlash against those who have abandoned this useful tool has begun, if you listened to Cameron's speech in Blackpool this is what he relied on, and look what happened to the polls. i'm not saying Cameron is the future, but the other parties all took note, and they should latch on. the future does not rest with us rising up against everyone else, but rather by saying if your coming here can contibute to Britain, bring skills we need and are willing to adapt to many of our ways, then yes you are welcome. and i would say the majority that are already here do, the minority needs to be sorted by the government, and they need to ensure this is how we will operate in the future.

 

and where do i live now? nottingham, 50 yards from the halal shop and in the heart of the muslim community, can't get enough tips on good curry.

[new to the flock]

Well Said

 

NTTF

[Cranfield]

Its good to read an alternative, more positive viewpoint, which I believe is shared with many other people in the UK.

 

You will of course be villified for being only 20 and therefore knowing nothing, you will also not be invited to join the BNP, who appear to be actively recruiting on most Shooting Forums.

[al4x]

its been the real low point of the forum recently and has shown how blinkered a small number of members are. If it keeps going I think the mods may have to think about shutting all the posts on sight. Can't we just go back to talking shooting!

[Zapp]

Nicely said.

 

I wouldnt support further sensorship of the forum; people have the right to be heard. However, IMHO I feel that a lot of what has been posted has been anti-fuel of the highest order (ie references to looming civil war/another bosnia etc), making the poster, aswell as myself and shooters in general sound just like the blinkered, paranoid, US survivalist style apocalypse junkies they would have us be.

 

I am genuinely disappointed and quite ashamed of what has been put on the forums, perhaps it wasnt worth argueing with anti's over the years that shooters are among the most level headed, accepting people I have ever met.

 

Enough to make one consider logging off for good frankly .

 

ZB

[Axe]

Alot of people tend to jump on the band waggon without having a full appreciation of the facts. Couple this with a disgust and frustration of this Britishness Quash and you get violent outbreaks of blame at minority groups who are in the public eye. You hit the nail on the head when you talk of leadership misguidance and the PC brigade, bring back common sense.

 

I do have concern about the invasion of immigrants though. I know quite a few Pols, cheqs, etc who hold management positions. Where possible I always have a discussion about what drew them to England, do they like it here and will they return. In almost every case, they were enticed by money, don't really like it here and intend to return in 10 - 15 years when they have earnt enough to support themselves upon thier return, obviously making the most of currency value and rates of exchange. Thats not the best step forward for this country in my view. But then again, the Australians have been doing this for years in our country!

[badgerman]

Alot of people tend to jump on the band waggon without having a full appreciation of the facts. Couple this with a disgust and frustration of this Britishness Quash and you get violent outbreaks of blame at minority groups who are in the public eye. You hit the nail on the head when you talk of leadership misguidance and the PC brigade, bring back common sense.

 

I do have concern about the invasion of immigrants though. I know quite a few Pols, cheqs, etc who hold management positions. Where possible I always have a discussion about what drew them to England, do they like it here and will they return. In almost every case, they were enticed by money, don't really like it here and intend to return in 10 - 15 years when they have earnt enough to support themselves upon thier return, obviously making the most of currency value and rates of exchange. Thats not the best step forward for this country in my view. But then again, the Australians have been doing this for years in our country!

 

you are right axe, i was trying to give a simplified response to everything else that had been said on the issue. inevitably in doing this i glossed over some areas that really do need to change, there are loads of issues, one such being the export of wages earned. hope everyone can acknowledge that, cheers BM.

[Chard]

It's interesting how both sides in the argument have used the term "blinkered", except that now it seems to be being used to describe people whose views differ from your own. If you make statements such as "and has shown how blinkered a small number of members are" you should be prepared to qualify it, otherwise that's all it means - "you disagree with me, so you're blinkered".

 

It's also all very well to ridicule any suggestion that unchecked immigration could lead to civil war. I would say that if it is not checked, then civil war at some point is a virtual certainty. Of course, the hope is that politicians will see sense and curb it before things degerarate that far. I think to ridicule the possibility is dangerously naive. The riots in 1991 (or whenever they were) were just that - riots, civil disobedience, a few cars getting torched and windows smashed. However, if they had gone on or some charismatic local figure or women or children had got killed, accidentally or otherwise, it might have been very different. The Police had very little control, it was almost as if the policy was to "let it fizzle out". If it hadn't have "fizzled out", what then - the Army?. There can be a fine line between a bit of civil disobedience and something entirely more dangerous. The outcome can be influenced by a death or two and as time goes on and immigration becomes more and more problematic, the potential for another flashpoint or a bit more "civil disobedience" grows.

 

If it makes you feel better to ridicule the idea, then OK, but in my opinon, it has more to do with realism than "blinkered, paranoid, US survivalist style apocalypse junkies"

 

Other than that, yes, it's nice to read a view from someone with a positive outlook on life. I hope you're right with what you believe Badgerman.

[berettaman1]

Yes ,but speaking for myself, enough is enough!! When the muslim doctors drove into Glasgow Airport and failed I thought, ! What the ****. Muslim doctors? trying to kill us Brits!, HHHHhhm I wondered how many White Brits they and perhaps many other Muslim doctors practising in our country have bumped off thousands of white patients and said the cause of death ( As Harold Shipman did naturall causes) these people are not to be trusted. Jeeze, Beam me up Scotty.

[Axe]

Lets at least keep this topic to factual comment and not speculation or accusation please.

[markbivvy]

So where will britain be in 20 years time? well in 20 years i will be 40, and as far as i'm concerned the future looks good

 

wish i had the same pair of glasses as you.

[Zapp]

If it makes you feel better to ridicule the idea, then OK, but in my opinon, it has more to do with realism than "blinkered, paranoid, US survivalist style apocalypse junkies"

 

Did I say that I agree with unfettered immigration anywhere in my post? No I did not. Nor though do I want to pack anyone who isnt 'British enough' onto the nearest boat and set the adrift. I was not ridiculing anyones idea. If you re-read my post you will see that I was trying to point out how some of the views being expressed could be interpreted to the detriment of shooters. And please dont make the mistake of assuming that anything I say in respect of what has been going on on the forums is an attempt to 'feel better'. This whole business is potentially quite a gift to anyone who wants to paint shooters and shooting , my hobby and yours, in a bad light. Similarly, if you think I bothered wading into this in an attempt to score cheap points against against you, you have missed the point by a country mile.

 

ZB

[codling99]

well personally ,i rekon this country totaly stinks. **** schools,**** hospitals,**** petrol prices,taxes,work,wages etc etc etc etc.

 

if it wernt for some good fishing and shooting,there be nothing here at all

[davo]

well personally ,i rekon this country totaly stinks. **** schools,**** hospitals,**** petrol prices,taxes,work,wages etc etc etc etc.

 

if it wernt for some good fishing and shooting,there be nothing here at all

 

 

Go on Codders, let it all out, release the pain........

[starlight32]

Its good to read an alternative, more positive viewpoint, which I believe is shared with many other people in the UK.

 

You will of course be villified for being only 20 and therefore knowing nothing, you will also not be invited to join the BNP, who appear to be actively recruiting on most Shooting Forums.

 

Please expand on that cranners, I have seen no evidence of BNP recruitment on any shooting forum.

 

The way the establishment of this country runs over the subject of the BNP I think if you did join as a member this goverment see's it as an adequate excuse to revoke your SGC/FAC

 

Anyone agree?

[henry d]

Please expand on that cranners, I have seen no evidence of BNP recruitment on any shooting forum.

 

 

Try here and guntrader for a kick off................or is it the same punters ??

[Dr W]

I agree immigration is good for the country, we live in one of the most multi cultural countries in the world and each bit of culture they bring on the whole enhances the country.

 

However you can't leave unchecked the current flood, we're only a small island and councils are now finding themselves short of cash due to the influx of migrant workers.

 

Yes in some cases we have to help those who face persecution in their own countries and we do need workers to do jobs others don't want to but that doesn't support an unrestricted flood from all EU countries. Why can't we have a system like Australia where you get points for certain skills and if you get enough points you can get in, or something similar.

 

I can't stress strongly enough that we have to get over this issue where discussing immgration is likened to racism, it's not.

[badgerman]

I agree immigration is good for the country, we live in one of the multi cultural countries in the world and each bit of culture they bring on the whole enhances the country.

 

However you can't leave unchecked the current flood, we're only a small island and councils are now finding themselves short of cash due to the influx of migrant workers.

 

Yes in some cases we have to help those who face persecution in their own countries and we do need workers to do jobs others don't want to but that doesn't support an unrestricted flood from all EU countries. Why can't we have a system like Australia where you get points for certain skills and if you get enough points you can get in, or something similar.

 

I can't stress strongly enough that we have to get over this issue where discussing immgration is likened to racism, it's not.

 

absolutely agree with you , i hate that people fear discussing this in proper terms and instead tip-toe around it. morons who think it ammounts to racism.

[col s10]

I would like to make a point in response to the many posts currently being made concerning immigration and ethnic integration. the reason i feel so strongly about this is because i despise antis - let me explain.

 

the problem with antis is not that they dont like people killing animals, whilst i do, (of course only in the right circumstances) but rather it is their method of argument against what we do. beyond the emotive powers of people, their argument rests on one crucial element - ignorance. this is the crux of it, without it they have nothing but blind faith, in the face of coherent rational argument (that would be us!).

 

if you break down and examine the eco-system in britain, it is clear nature cannot sustain itself in its current form without human intervention - this is largely because of our intervention over thousands of years, whether it be over-hunting (which we have now come to terms with and understand) resulting in the removal of crucial elements of food chains, i.e. predators etc. once a species is entirely removed by us, we must then stand in in place of that creature, and in some way attempt to reproduce its role. i needn’t expand further on the role of shooting, as we are all aware of the natural and economical benefits of everything from driven shoots to stalking to decoying, other than to say it is necessary, the government recognises this, and all that is necessary to protect this is to ensure no poor soul is left in ignorance and allowed to travel the road to the LACS. (and yes of course i realise this is the problem we will always face, and it is a tragedy).

 

However, for all shooters among us, if you believe the above to be correct - and i fail to see how you could not appreciate it - then i call many of you hypocrites. in life i encounter few people worse than those who pursue and encourage nonsense, those who do not take it upon themselves to consider anything from another point of view, who clearly do not believe in the rational and logical. this is not to say let us exclude emotion from our arguments, but it is vital we are not blinded by it.

 

the problem with this country is not the dirty muzzers, scrounging somalians or pilfering poles. but clearly we do have problems, and we need only look at all the previous posts to see what they are, so i won't reiterate them but respond to a few.

 

immigration - entirely necessary. many of us are from the country, and if not then at least can appreciate the countryside and those who run their livelihoods there. - are you going to pick apples for a career? no. and neither will i. for vast areas of farming and agriculture, immigrant labour has been the saviour for many a money-losing farmer. this is fact.

but too many people ignore this and concentrate on those who 'steal' jobs, and in fact i sympathise with this view in many ways. for those whose careers depend on the trades, eastern european builders are under-cutting thousands, but is it their fault? i doubt the welsh miners will ever forgive thatcher, but that is capitalism, it is the world we live in and to turn our backs on it is to condemn ourselves to economic backwardness. it is brutal, and we can make provisions to ease it but it is ultimately inevitable.

 

Muslims - muslims are not suicide bombers, vandals and awkward scum. however, there are a minority of fanatics who misinterpret religious teaching, who go against the majority and these people need to be dealt with harshly, locked away and isolated from society. people attempting to change british values and traditions i also believe should be given a good slap, winter festivals and the like makes my blood boil, but is it really the desire of ethnic minorities? well all surveys say no, rather it is the fault of over-zealous councilors and the rest of the PC brigade, the government needs to shake this up and support britishness. integration is not just up to us, to bend over backwards to accommodate other religious values, it is the immigrants job also. i am appalled at cases of christian white britons being banned from eating their lunch at their desks during ramadan for fear of upsetting muslim workers, but i do not believe the fault lies with them, but with those in charge. what they fail to understand is rather than building integration, they breed resentment where it needn't be.

 

So where will britain be in 20 years time? well in 20 years i will be 40, and as far as i'm concerned the future looks good. it will be a time of change and of course many problems, but nothing that cannot be overcome with the simple aid of common sense, and the backlash against those who have abandoned this useful tool has begun, if you listened to Cameron's speech in Blackpool this is what he relied on, and look what happened to the polls. i'm not saying Cameron is the future, but the other parties all took note, and they should latch on. the future does not rest with us rising up against everyone else, but rather by saying if your coming here can contibute to Britain, bring skills we need and are willing to adapt to many of our ways, then yes you are welcome. and i would say the majority that are already here do, the minority needs to be sorted by the government, and they need to ensure this is how we will operate in the future.

 

and where do i live now? nottingham, 50 yards from the halal shop and in the heart of the muslim community, can't get enough tips on good curry.

you are a deluded young man enjoy your curry

[badgerman]

possibly, but its also possible that i represent the majority of todays youth. and as i have far more contact with people my age than i'm sure you do, then possibly i am in a far better position to judge that than you are.

 

please understand i am not saying we have no problems and changes aren't required, but it is not so bleak a picture as many people on here would paint.

 

cheers,

 

BM.

[markbivvy]

but its also possible that i represent the majority of todays youth

 

no.

[magman]

When in Rome do as the romans do .

 

 

 

When in Britain do as you like and get paid for it ,oh and claim for the family living in another country .

 

 

IMHO

[Mrs Sweepy]

badgerman, you are like a breath of fresh air .this is still a good country just needs a bit of TLC and more youngsters like you xxxx suzy

[Mungler]

The two sides to this debate appear to be dependant on where you live.

 

If you live in a nice white or middle class area (i.e. not a **** hole) then lifes not looking too bad and there is hope.

 

Take a trip inside the M25 or to Bradford, Birmingham or Leeds (i.e. a **** hole) and all of a sudden the future ain't looking that rosey and the issues of immigration are right in your face 24/7 (unless you are about to move out of your **** hole to somewhere nice).

 

Walk a mile in a man's shoes.

[magman]

The two sides to this debate appear to be dependant on where you live.

 

If you live in a nice white or middle class area (i.e. not a **** hole) then lifes not looking too bad and there is hope.

 

Take a trip inside the M25 or to Bradford, Birmingham or Leeds (i.e. a **** hole) and all of a sudden the future ain't looking that rosey and the issues of immigration are right in your face 24/7 (unless you are about to move out of your **** hole to somewhere nice).

 

Walk a mile in a man's shoes.

 

 

Very well put mung

 

i can see this getting closed soon if not there may be a few banned members , me being one of them .

 

No not racist but enough is enough