ShootHub Podcast - lead shot latest with BASC's Terry Behan

[Conor O'Gorman]

Detailed Q&A podcast into every aspect of the voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting - with lots of myth-busting:

https://theshoothubpodcast.podbean.com/e/lead-shot-latest/

 

[Gordon R]

Given that the last thread you started on the voluntary move away from lead shot has just been closed, I would question why you felt the need to start another.

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Given that the last thread you started on the voluntary move away from lead shot has just been closed, I would question why you felt the need to start another.

Because BASC is sharing it today on social media. It's a very good listen. Give it a try.

[Gordon R]

I did listen to the first 10 minutes and gave up. The effect of consuming lead was glossed over, with no mention of the fact that some people have their water supply through lead pipes. It seemed rather vague, with no-one challenging the big assumptions.

Given that the "wee chicks" pick up small amounts of lead as grit and digest it, how can BASC claim that game shot with lead alternatives are in fact lead free? I don't see how that is possible.

 

[Smudger687]

I was mid-way through typing a reasoned response to the points raised on the podcast, then realised I'd already done the same thing not too long ago and it got me nowhere. I just can't be bothered to argue anymore. 

What I will say is that there are far worse problems to shooting's future than lead/non lead. The main ones being punitive firearms licensing and a lack of public land. It's demoralising trying to find permissions in some parts of the country.

[Conor O'Gorman]

29 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I did listen to the first 10 minutes and gave up. The effect of consuming lead was glossed over, with no mention of the fact that some people have their water supply through lead pipes. It seemed rather vague, with no-one challenging the big assumptions.

Given that the "wee chicks" pick up small amounts of lead as grit and digest it, how can BASC claim that game shot with lead alternatives are in fact lead free? I don't see how that is possible.

 

Lead in game meat and lead pipes is dealt with. Please do listen to it all when you can. It is very good IMHO. Any free ranging chicks of the likes of Galliformes and Anatidae that eat even a single piece of lead shot will die whether directly or be predated on due to sub-lethal effects impacting on their survival. A wider point - there is background lead in every food and these levels are tested against agreed industry thresholds. Lead shot game has been found to exceed those thresholds. 

Hence this FSA advice:

https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/lead-shot-game

This is all covered in the podcast - please do listen when you can.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

I was mid-way through typing a reasoned response to the points raised on the podcast, then realised I'd already done the same thing not too long ago and it got me nowhere. I just can't be bothered to argue anymore. 

What I will say is that there are far worse problems to shooting's future than lead/non lead. The main ones being punitive firearms licensing and a lack of public land. It's demoralising trying to find permissions in some parts of the country.

In that case the best thing might be to arrange a phone call with Terry? That could be a productive conversation based on your respective experiences using steel shot to good effect? If that is of interest please PM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk 

[scarecrow243]

here we go again another load of rubbish about lead shot poisoning  we still have miles and miles of lead pipes in the uk and no one is dying from it  is basc getting a back hander too keep pushing and pushing this voluntary move away that they started basc is not standing for shooters rights no wonder members are leaving so basc give up you make me vomit every time i here this rubbish and no i don't want to listen to any basc member on the phone

[Windswept]

Is there a transcript? I don't tend to have time to listen to them but would like a transcript I can search and ideally references to back up what's said.

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Is there a transcript? I don't tend to have time to listen to them but would like a transcript I can search and ideally references to back up what's said.

No transcript - best to just listen to in the car perhaps? It's a great listen IMHO.

14 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

is basc getting a back hander too keep pushing and pushing this voluntary move away

No.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

A wider point - there is background lead in every food and these levels are tested against agreed industry thresholds

I thought there was no safe threshold ?

[Weihrauch17]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I thought there was no safe threshold ?

And given not a single person has ever died from ingesting Lead Shot who decides the threshold and every bird will have varying levels of lead in it anyway.  I find it hard to believe this thread has been started after the last one, best for us all to ignore it I think before it quickly degrades. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I thought there was no safe threshold ?

That is my understanding also. It is a culminative effect.

8 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

And given not a single person has ever died from ingesting Lead Shot who decides the threshold and every bird will have varying levels of lead in it anyway.  I find it hard to believe this thread has been started after the last one, best for us all to ignore it I think before it quickly degrades. 

I too am unaware of evidence of anyone ever dying of lead poisoning from eating lead shot game. Best to listen to the Podcast for the context.

[clangerman]

10 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I find it hard to believe this thread has been started after the last one, best for us all to ignore it I think before it quickly degrades. 

nobody can say they don’t know the lock means leave it and he’s now back flogging the same lead dream hrs later! lol 

[Terry2016]

24 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I thought there was no safe threshold ?

There isn't, as per the below 

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/lead-poisoning-and-health

Key facts

• Exposure to lead can affect multiple body systems and is particularly harmful to young children and women of child-bearing age.
• Lead in the body is distributed to the brain, liver, kidney and bones. It is stored in the teeth and bones, where it can accumulate over time. Human exposure is usually assessed through the measurement of lead in blood.
• Lead in bone is released into blood during pregnancy and becomes a source of exposure to the developing fetus.
• There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.
• Lead exposure is preventable.

[Terry2016]

1 hour ago, scarecrow243 said:

here we go again another load of rubbish about lead shot poisoning  we still have miles and miles of lead pipes in the uk and no one is dying from it  is basc getting a back hander too keep pushing and pushing this voluntary move away that they started basc is not standing for shooters rights no wonder members are leaving so basc give up you make me vomit every time i here this rubbish and no i don't want to listen to any basc member on the phone

Lead is a serious threat to public health, long term exposure is known to be associated with conditions such as hypertension, renal disease, digestive diseases, and cognitive decline. Lead is capable of crossing the placental barrier,  harming the foetus, and is known to cause developmental delay and learning difficulties in children.

Lead (in the form of tetraethyl lead) was previously used as a petrol additive. Thankfully, leaded petrol has been banned in the UK since 1999 after the health and environmental impacts became clear. Historically, lead has been added to paint as a pigment and to accelerate drying. The UK has also banned the use of lead in domestic paint since 1992. 

As lead is corrosion resistant, malleable, and ductile, it has been used in the manufacture of pipework ever since ancient times. As the toxic nature of lead has become better understood its use in plumbing has been banned in many countries. In the UK the use of lead pipes has been banned since the 1970s

Despite the use of lead pipes in new houses being prohibited, millions of houses in the UK are still plumbed with dangerous lead pipes that pose a measurable risk to human health. Water companies commonly add orthophosphate to our drinking water as a plumbosolvency agent. The orthophosphate binds to lead pipes and helps prevent the harmful metal from dissolving into the water.

Adding tonnes of phosphate to our drinking water each year may be cheaper than replacing all of the country's lead pipes, but it’s not infallible and errors in dosing have previously been reported. 

 

One common misconception is that drinking water is safe if the amount of lead is less than the amount stipulated in the drinking water standards, the World Health Organization has stated that there is no safe limit for lead. In the UK the drinking water standard for lead has reduced significantly as we learn more about its harmful effects.

The UK water supply regulations introduced in 1989 set the limit for lead to 50 ppb (µg/l), this was reduced to 25 ppb in 2003 and further reduced to our current limit of 10 ppb in 2013. In 2020, the European Parliament adopted the revised drinking water directive that commits the EU members to a limit of 5 ppb by 2036.

https://thewaterprofessor.com/blogs/articles/lead-pipes

hope that helps 

 

[Windswept]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

No transcript - best to just listen to in the car perhaps? It's a great listen IMHO.

I don't drive that much although you seem to have missed my point. Many people don't listen to podcast, if you want to get your point across then a transcript is helpful, if you can't provide one then some platforms auto generate one so worth looking at.

[Weihrauch17]

13 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Lead is a serious threat to public health, long term exposure is known to be associated with conditions such as hypertension, renal disease, digestive diseases, and cognitive decline. Lead is capable of crossing the placental barrier,  harming the foetus, and is known to cause developmental delay and learning difficulties in children.

Lead (in the form of tetraethyl lead) was previously used as a petrol additive. Thankfully, leaded petrol has been banned in the UK since 1999 after the health and environmental impacts became clear. Historically, lead has been added to paint as a pigment and to accelerate drying. The UK has also banned the use of lead in domestic paint since 1992. 

As lead is corrosion resistant, malleable, and ductile, it has been used in the manufacture of pipework ever since ancient times. As the toxic nature of lead has become better understood its use in plumbing has been banned in many countries. In the UK the use of lead pipes has been banned since the 1970s

Despite the use of lead pipes in new houses being prohibited, millions of houses in the UK are still plumbed with dangerous lead pipes that pose a measurable risk to human health. Water companies commonly add orthophosphate to our drinking water as a plumbosolvency agent. The orthophosphate binds to lead pipes and helps prevent the harmful metal from dissolving into the water.

Adding tonnes of phosphate to our drinking water each year may be cheaper than replacing all of the country's lead pipes, but it’s not infallible and errors in dosing have previously been reported. 

 

One common misconception is that drinking water is safe if the amount of lead is less than the amount stipulated in the drinking water standards, the World Health Organization has stated that there is no safe limit for lead. In the UK the drinking water standard for lead has reduced significantly as we learn more about its harmful effects.

The UK water supply regulations introduced in 1989 set the limit for lead to 50 ppb (µg/l), this was reduced to 25 ppb in 2003 and further reduced to our current limit of 10 ppb in 2013. In 2020, the European Parliament adopted the revised drinking water directive that commits the EU members to a limit of 5 ppb by 2036.

https://thewaterprofessor.com/blogs/articles/lead-pipes

hope that helps 

 

I am surprised any of us are left alive!

[Weihrauch17]

41 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That is my understanding also. It is a culminative effect.

I too am unaware of evidence of anyone ever dying of lead poisoning from eating lead shot game. Best to listen to the Podcast for the context.

No thanks I would rather stick pins in my eyes.  Anyway I need to follow my own advice and stop posting on this thread, it will only degenerate and is disrespectful to the Mods after the last one was closed.

Edited April 22 by Weihrauch17

[Gordon R]

Having listened to part of the podcast, I am not inclined to listen to the rest. Conor might claim it is a good listen and needs to be heard in full. It sounded like a group of brainwashed pals having a cosy chat about trivia. The first few minutes are frankly embarrassing. Perhaps someone could enlighten them about the difference between "was" and "were".

Perhaps Conor could cite the part of the podcast which deals with birds shot by steel or bismuth, who had previously ingested lead shot. I don't think it will be in there. If Conor claims that it is - against my better judgement - I will listen to the rest. If I am compelled to listen to the rest, I will be less than happy if it isn't in there.

[Konor]

After the last fiasco I won’t be following this one . I can’t imagine in the space of a few hours that there has been any developments that would have me alter my view that BASC works in the best interests of BASC not grass roots shooters. Unless there has been a sudden change in policy and BASC have decided to focus on hotspot areas responsible for the vast majority of lead deposited then it’s just more of the same politically motivated propaganda on the shortcomings of lead and the superiority of steel shot. Thankfully the transition away from lead is voluntary and I can continue to use my vintage shotguns with the ammunition they were designed and regulated to be used with. Thanks BASC for your acceptance that less than 10% compliance with the voluntary move away from lead is sufficient to allow us to continue as we please.I would have thought with the overwhelming evidence that lead is so toxic that you would have called for an immediate ban but there you go ,very unexpected. Regarding unexpected I thought after the last anti lead shot thread  Conor that you might be a bit too embarrassed to show face but ever the politician up you pop. so many parallels with our current crop of politicians perhaps there’s something in the water besides lead.

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Terry2016 said:

Lead is a serious threat to public health, long term exposure is known to be associated with conditions such as hypertension, renal disease, digestive diseases, and cognitive decline. Lead is capable of crossing the placental barrier,  harming the foetus, and is known to cause developmental delay and learning difficulties in children.

Lead (in the form of tetraethyl lead) was previously used as a petrol additive. Thankfully, leaded petrol has been banned in the UK since 1999 after the health and environmental impacts became clear. Historically, lead has been added to paint as a pigment and to accelerate drying. The UK has also banned the use of lead in domestic paint since 1992. 

As lead is corrosion resistant, malleable, and ductile, it has been used in the manufacture of pipework ever since ancient times. As the toxic nature of lead has become better understood its use in plumbing has been banned in many countries. In the UK the use of lead pipes has been banned since the 1970s

Despite the use of lead pipes in new houses being prohibited, millions of houses in the UK are still plumbed with dangerous lead pipes that pose a measurable risk to human health. Water companies commonly add orthophosphate to our drinking water as a plumbosolvency agent. The orthophosphate binds to lead pipes and helps prevent the harmful metal from dissolving into the water.

Adding tonnes of phosphate to our drinking water each year may be cheaper than replacing all of the country's lead pipes, but it’s not infallible and errors in dosing have previously been reported. 

 

One common misconception is that drinking water is safe if the amount of lead is less than the amount stipulated in the drinking water standards, the World Health Organization has stated that there is no safe limit for lead. In the UK the drinking water standard for lead has reduced significantly as we learn more about its harmful effects.

The UK water supply regulations introduced in 1989 set the limit for lead to 50 ppb (µg/l), this was reduced to 25 ppb in 2003 and further reduced to our current limit of 10 ppb in 2013. In 2020, the European Parliament adopted the revised drinking water directive that commits the EU members to a limit of 5 ppb by 2036.

https://thewaterprofessor.com/blogs/articles/lead-pipes

hope that helps 

 

Thank you for posting that ,all common knowledge to the educated but ………..

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Terry 2016, you certainly seem keen to post about the danger of lead pipes and as you say they have been banned since the 1970's.

Those that are left are invariably on the waste side of the water, i.e.used to take waste water out of the building.

The issue here is about the use of the best material to kill birds in the air.

Just to add another element to the argument;

I would have been much happier if our Shooting Organisations, lead by BASC had called via their memberships for a ban on the use of plastic wads.

The replacement of lead could have been initiated at the same time and with a little encouragement, the Cartridge Manufacturers might have got a move on and come up with proper alternatives.

As long as it remains a VOLUNTARY TRANSITION away from Lead, I will continue to work my way through the stockpile.

 

Now I have tried to remain polite and respectful but will now await the small group who repeatedly derail the debate by calling for us to accept what has happened and to call us out for daring to point out the poor history of the Voice of British Shooting (BASC).

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

here we go again another load of rubbish about lead shot poisoning  we still have miles and miles of lead pipes in the uk and no one is dying from it  is basc getting a back hander too keep pushing and pushing this voluntary move away that they started basc is not standing for shooters rights no wonder members are leaving so basc give up you make me vomit every time i here this rubbish and no i don't want to listen to any basc member on the phone

Nobody is talking about lead shot poisoning in humans - its the birds that are being poisoned. Nobody is talking about people dying from water in lead pipes. 

10 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Perhaps Conor could cite the part of the podcast which deals with birds shot by steel or bismuth, who had previously ingested lead shot.

There is no discussion about birds shot with steel or bismuth who had previously ingested lead shot. I have covered your query earlier in this thread.

10 hours ago, Konor said:

Regarding unexpected I thought after the last anti lead shot thread  Conor that you might be a bit too embarrassed to show face but ever the politician up you pop. so many parallels with our current crop of politicians perhaps there’s something in the water besides lead.

Please stop making personal remarks about me. I hope you will listen to the podcast with is the point of the OP.

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Nobody is talking about lead shot poisoning in humans - its the birds that are being poisoned. Nobody is talking about people dying from water in lead pipes. 

In the plus side the predators are having a field day it must be so easy for them to catch the birds 

leaving the rest alone 

can’t listen to any podcasts I’m afraid