Notting hill carnival

[12gauge82]

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

If it stops knife crime then why not?

Or rather do we let knife crime continue to disproportionately affect a particular at risk demographic for fear of upsetting that demographic?

Doesn’t bother me - there’s a solution available and the reason it’s not pursued is for fear of alienating the statistically most probably / at risk demographic albeit the truth of targeting that demographic is in the statistical evidence as upsetting as they may find that truth.

Mark my words, there will be no getting on top of knife crime without targeted stop and search as offensive as that may be. Indeed, until that demographic and the liberal hand wringers get to grips with that Hobson’s choice the stabbings will continue.

As for alternatives - well I’m not seeing any and there’s no suggestions here, just word soup about complex and cultural issues. 

Serious question. How would you or anyone else on this forum feel if all white males were band from keeping firearms in private ownership in future?

After all, all mass shootings over the last few decades with legally held firearms has been committed by white males!

[Mice!]

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

If your happy to live in a police state where no evidence is required to search you, your car, your house, your wife or your children, I find it a little odd personally. Where's the line? A camera in your house, your bedroom, unfettered access to your communications? I know it sounds hysterical, but without rights it's a slippery slope to dictatorship. 

Nobody said search your car, wife etc

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolutely conduct stop and search, but it must be specific intelligence led like you, I or anyone else could be subjected to and not simply because someone is young, male and black. That can only cause problems and is unjust. 

The intelligence is that young Black males are carrying knives in certain areas and stabbing each other, that should be enough for that community to want something done, it has to be a small percentage that are carrying,  so if the choice is be subject to stop and search or an ever increased risk of getting stabbed I know what I'd want as a parent. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Nobody said search your car, wife etc

I KNOW, BUT MY POINT IS, IF WE'RE GOING TO IGNORE THE PRINCIPLES THAT POLICING WAS BUILT ON, JUST WHERE DOES IT STOP. 

The intelligence is that young Black males are carrying knives in certain areas and stabbing each other, that should be enough for that community to want something done, it has to be a small percentage that are carrying,  so if the choice is be subject to stop and search or an ever increased risk of getting stabbed I know what I'd want as a parent. 

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF CRIMES PREDOMINANTLY CARRIED OUT BY CERTAIN GROUPS, IT'S NOT RIGHT TO CURTAIL PEOPLES RIGHTS BASED SOLELY ON SEX, AGE AND COLOUR. 

 

Edited September 1 by 12gauge82

[Zoli 12 guage]

7 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Serious question. How would you or anyone else on this forum feel if all white males were band from keeping firearms in private ownership in future?

After all, all mass shootings over the last few decades with legally held firearms has been committed by white males!

that is a totally unrealistic analogy.

there were 282 in 2021/22 and 244 2022/23 fatal stabbings in England and Wales.

they don't publish the figures regarding ethnicity (i wonder why) but i would hazard a guess that 99% were black on black.

there are,on average,many more than 100 annually just in London.

how many have been killed by legally held firearms in the last decade?

AND,i don't mean including police held firearms.

Edited September 1 by Zoli 12 guage

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Serious question. How would you or anyone else on this forum feel if all white males were band from keeping firearms in private ownership in future?

After all, all mass shootings over the last few decades with legally held firearms has been committed by white males!

Not a rational comparator.

If people were dropping like flies every week, and the prisons were disproportionately full of whites aged 16-30 and the demographic perpetrators were white 16-30 then there would be a rational argument for no white owning guns between the gates of 16- 30 years of age. That’s how stats work. If the country agreed too, well that’s how democracy works for better or for worse.

And this is where we also have another irrational departure from reality - and that is searching people like my mum to show balance when actively searching for 16-30 black males. Does that make it better or fairer, if utterly pointless. That is the mindlessness of it all right there - search everyone to make it fair but all the while know full well it’s only non white males 16-30 who are carrying. Absolute waste of police resources too. 

Ah the hand wringers. Trevor Phillips had it right.

The knife crime problem won’t get any better until a few truths are openly accepted and a few bitter pills swallowed.

I think we should leave the decision making to non white mothers over 40 - they’re the ones disproportionately affected. But what we have is ‘well meaning’ white hand wringers telling everyone how offended they should be.

Edited September 1 by Mungler

[B686]

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

If your happy to live in a police state where no evidence is required to search you, your car, your house, your wife or your children, I find it a little odd personally. Where's the line? A camera in your house, your bedroom, unfettered access to your communications? I know it sounds hysterical, but without rights it's a slippery slope to dictatorship. 

If you’re in an area with high knife crime or at an event why not be searched. What is it 30/40 seconds out of your life.

Were already on the slippery slope to dictatorship with that Prxxk Starmer.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, B686 said:

If you’re in an area with high knife crime or at an event why not be searched. What is it 30/40 seconds out of your life.

Were already on the slippery slope to dictatorship with that Prxxk Starmer.

Absolutely, a small inconvenience for everyones safety.

A good deterrent.

 

The only people offended are either playing the "race card" or are those damned apologists who are being offended on behalf of the people they are apologising about.

[Mungler]

26 minutes ago, B686 said:

If you’re in an area with high knife crime or at an event why not be searched. What is it 30/40 seconds out of your life.

Were already on the slippery slope to dictatorship with that Prxxk Starmer.

Don’t let common sense get in the way of an opportunity to be offended.

[old'un]

Some interesting views on who and why some people carry a knife.

The real experience of my teenage years, 1963-1969, and living in Handsworth Birmingham tells me who was likely to carry a knife and use it.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Absolutely, a small inconvenience for everyones safety.

A good deterrent.

The only people offended are either playing the "race card" or are those damned apologists who are being offended on behalf of the people they are apologising about.

Agreed.

And there’s either a will and a determination to do something about knife crime (and an acceptance that there’s no magical solution which doesn’t involve breaking a few eggs to make that omelette) or we keep going as we are…

Still not had a viable alternative on here - 6th time of asking 😆

[Mungler]

Oh and in more breaking news someone owes a charity of my choice £20. Male, 16-30, non white. Explain to me again why this age group and demographic ought not be targeted and how there should be equivalent searches of people like my mum not to offend a particular group?

Again, we should pay no attention to the hand wringing nonsense of ‘complex’ and ‘cultural issues’. Absolute  wet buffoonery. Leave the wets in charge and it all falls apart soon enough. 

.

Edited September 1 by Mungler

[old man]

13 hours ago, B686 said:

It shouldn’t matter wether you are 16 60 white black light brown yellow blue green if you are stopped and searched it shouldn’t bother you if you have nothing to hide no bad intentions and are a law obiding citizen. Because they are just doing their job and trying to keep people safe. 

Oh dear, a police state just like the Stasi? Not for me at any price.

Maybe again the usual tactic where there is a problem, aim for the law abiding as they are easy targets?

[Vince Green]

11 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

If your happy to live in a police state where no evidence is required to search you, your car, your house, your wife or your children, I find it a little odd personally. Where's the line? A camera in your house, your bedroom, unfettered access to your communications? I know it sounds hysterical, but without rights it's a slippery slope to dictatorship. 

The police can search me, my wife, my car and my house as often as they like.

As long as they leave the car and the house tidy when they have finished.

The reason I don't mind is because I don't have anything to hide and I know they have a job to do

I'm sure they are not searching people  for the fun of it. The benefit they get out it must be justified to want to put in the effort in the first place. 

[12gauge82]

Interesting that so many people seem to not like my analogy. Not rational, unrealistic, amongst others, it almost sounds unfair doesn't it.

I'm sure that's how a law abiding black man would feel who was repeatedly stopped and searched for nothing more than how he looked. I'm sure those on here advocating for it would feel differently if it was them that were targeted. 

[Dave-G]

22 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

...... I'm sure that's how a law abiding black man would feel who was repeatedly stopped and searched for nothing more than how he looked. I'm sure those on here advocating for it would feel differently if it was them that were targeted. 

Do you reckon a reasonable law abiding black man who accepts there is a massive black on black stabbing issue would be OK about it if his kid got stabbed?

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Do you reckon a reasonable law abiding black man who accepts there is a massive black on black stabbing issue would be OK about it if his kid got stabbed?

Let's be real. Although there is disproportionate black on black knife crime. It's not a war zone and it's still not a proportionally common thing to happen. Your post comes across as every black person should be overly concerned with the highly unlikely chance of getting stabbed, which I think is a little hysterical. 

[Westley]

23 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Serious question. How would you or anyone else on this forum feel if all white males were band from keeping firearms in private ownership in future?

After all, all mass shootings over the last few decades with legally held firearms has been committed by white males!

IF there was a risk of my going around shooting people, then I may just see it as justifiable. 

I think these things have to be proportional.  I fail to see the point of stopping an 80 years old person of any sex or colour, coming out of Tesco's, to search them for offensive weapons. However a group of teenagers gathered in the local park, drinking and using drugs,  could be a well worthwhile proposition. 

 

Edited September 1 by Westley

[12gauge82]

22 minutes ago, Westley said:

IF there was a risk of my going around shooting people, then I may just see it as justifiable. 

I think these things have to be proportional.  I fail to see the point of stopping an 80 years old person of any sex or colour, coming out of Tesco's, to search them for offensive weapons. However a group of teenagers gathered in the local park, drinking and using drugs,  could be a well worthwhile proposition. 

 

Absolutely, you have to use a mixture of common sense, but crucially there must be some information/intelligence to search someone. To just randomly search people based on their age or colour would surely be a breach of the principles policing is based on. 

[Dave-G]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Let's be real. Although there is disproportionate black on black knife crime. It's not a war zone and it's still not a proportionally common thing to happen. Your post comes across as every black person should be overly concerned with the highly unlikely chance of getting stabbed, which I think is a little hysterical. 

Ah... you concede there is a disproportionate issue  - yet think the question was a little hysterical.

Every black person, nor their parents are going to be stopped, searched, or stabbed. It'd be mainly the morons wearing hoodies up or bollick space/bum crack baggy shell suits getting searched. We mostly all know who the iffy looking gangsta suspects are, and many will be known to the police.

[12gauge82]

29 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Ah... you concede there is a disproportionate issue  - yet think the question was a little hysterical.

Every black person, nor their parents are going to be stopped, searched, or stabbed. It'd be mainly the morons wearing hoodies up or bollick space/bum crack baggy shell suits getting searched. We mostly all know who the iffy looking gangsta suspects are, and many will be known to the police.

If you read back through my posts you'll see I've been very clear about that. 

The point I'm making is, we can't destroy the foundations policing is built on, which is policing by consent. Infringement of rights by stop search not backed by intelligence would depart from the norms of UK policing and would be a move towards a police state, not to mention be unfair on those it targeted. 

I feel the same about non crime hate incident reporting and 2 tier policing to. We can't cherry pick who's rights get stepped on or it's a slippery slope towards a stasi state. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

If you read back through my posts you'll see I've been very clear about that. 

The point I'm making is, we can't destroy the foundations policing is built on, which is policing by consent. Infringement of rights by stop search not backed by intelligence would depart from the norms of UK policing and would be a move towards a police state, not to mention be unfair on those it targeted. 

I feel the same about non crime hate incident reporting and 2 tier policing to. We can't cherry pick who's rights get stepped on or it's a slippery slope towards a stasi state. 

Then the stabbings will continue and quite possibly increase as we can't offend the most likely part of society by searching them more than any other part?

 

What if they, (the Police) checked EVERYBODY?

[Penelope]

On 31/08/2024 at 01:22, enfieldspares said:

My son's mother went to the Notting Hill Carnival the weekend gone. She seemed to have enjoyed herself even though she didn't seem too happy here waiting for the rest of her troupe to arrive....as they were late.

I've been 4 times; only robbed once, pick pocket.

[Penelope]

On 31/08/2024 at 13:05, Rewulf said:

Im going to be a little picky here...

If you are paying for an event or service, you expect (as a duty of care) that your person should be reasonably protected from theft or injury ?
Security should , and is usually provided for this, and while not 100% guaranteed to protect you, there is a reasonable expectation of some level of protection.

Free outdoor events such as the Carnival do not enjoy the same levels of protection, whilst there is a large police presence, they seem only interested in the more serious crimes, weed is smoke openly for example, and petty crime like street robbery is largely ignored , but then that is par for the course in London these days anyway, Mr Khan has said thats just part of being in a big city, so we have to accept it and move on.

 

Imagine a white man saying that, he would be hung out to dry 😄

After being quartered.

[Penelope]

On 31/08/2024 at 15:46, 12gauge82 said:

You'd probably end up with a riot

Which brings us back to "doe"!!

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Then the stabbings will continue and quite possibly increase as we can't offend the most likely part of society by searching them more than any other part?

 

What if they, (the Police) checked EVERYBODY?

It's not about offend, it's about sticking to the principles uk policing and law is built on. Start bonfiring them and we're on a very slippery slope towards a police state. I can't believe people are advocating that they would be fine if the police searched them, their family and their home without evidence "because they've got nothing to hide". 

As for checking everybody, absolutely as a condition of entry search you might get at a concert or the like, but if you read back through my posts I've already explained why I do not believe that would work for the Notting Hill carnival. 

40 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Which brings us back to "doe"!!

It certainly does. The cure can't be worse than the disease!