Notting hill carnival

[Penelope]

12 hours ago, Mice! said:

Someone from the police said on the radio today that they have to decide if its safe for the police to make an arrest, imagine that, not acting because their outnumbered or know It'll kick off, might as well not be there.

Every chance of a 'Blakelock' incident.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

13 hours ago, Mice! said:

Someone from the police said on the radio today that they have to decide if its safe for the police to make an arrest, imagine that, not acting because their outnumbered or know It'll kick off, might as well not be there.

Gordon Bloody Bennett, then I presume we have got to the same stage as our beloved (NOT) "Caravan Club Members"

B. LIAR decided they should be treated with "respect" and now we actually have the Police making a decision if it might be "safe" to arrest people.

 

Indeed they might as well NOT BE THERE for all the good they do.

[Westley]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

I can understand what your saying but...

So making an identification later is going to be very difficult and unlikely.

Yet it goes ahead every year?? That right there should be enough to say no more.

Yes, extremely difficult. Especially as much was made of CCTV identification used for the riots. It involves trolling through hours of CCTV footage in the hopes of identifying clothing, then the Offender without a mask.

It goes ahead because it has gone on for so many years and as such would be extremely difficult to put an end to.

You are preaching to the converted, I stood behind a shield, night after night for over a month in 1981. You could NOT break ranks to arrest someone, for fear of leaving a gap in the line. We had never seen such riots on the mainland,  and as a result were completely unprepared and ill equipped to deal with them. There followed years of riot shield training that involved squads to come through the line and make arrests. What happened in the recent riots........a row of Bobbies behind shields, taking a battering. In over 40 years, we have learned NOTHING  !

[Wymondley]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

I suggest because of their culture not the colour of their skins.

Absolutely!

It's always about culture and behaviour, and it's about time it was called out as such, skin colour is irrelevant.

Most football violence is caused by young white males... An accurate observation.

Most knife crime is committed by young black males... Racist apparently. 

[ditchman]

What happened to "The good old baton charge"

them were the days eh....

and with PROPER batons....(not these teloscopic backscratchers)

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Wymondley said:

Absolutely!

It's always about culture and behaviour, and it's about time it was called out as such, skin colour is irrelevant.

Most football violence is caused by young white males... An accurate observation.

Most knife crime is committed by young black males... Racist apparently. 

Although I'm sure cultural issues exist. Poverty is almost certainly the driving factor. I would think the majority in attendance are several generations British. 

[Penelope]

30 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Although I'm sure cultural issues exist. Poverty is almost certainly the driving factor. I would think the majority in attendance are several generations British. 

It's a poverty of choice, in that case, as there are the same chances for all; do reasonable at school and the opportunities are there.

 

[Zoli 12 guage]

9 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It's a poverty of choice, in that case, as there are the same chances for all; do reasonable at school and the opportunities are there.

 

why bother when it's far easier to chuck the old " it's cos i'm (insert your ethnic background/colour of choice here)" in as a cover all excuse 👍

[Penelope]

12 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

why bother when it's far easier to chuck the old " it's cos i'm (insert your ethnic background/colour of choice here)" in as a cover all excuse 👍

Personnelly, I don't think it's poverty but choice.

[Westley]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

Every chance of a 'Blakelock' incident.

THAT, is highly likely  !

[Westley]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

What happened to "The good old baton charge"

them were the days eh....

and with PROPER batons....(not these teloscopic backscratchers)

That is EXACTLY how GMP sorted their riots in 81......get stuck in, take no prisoners  !  Their riots lasted less than a week. You really do not want a second dose of a riot shield down your shins  😂  They had a Chief with sphericals   !

Now it's against their "Yuman rights".

Edited August 27 by Westley

[12gauge82]

50 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It's a poverty of choice, in that case, as there are the same chances for all; do reasonable at school and the opportunities are there.

 

I see it differently. You see it to varying degrees from all walks of life. Take the benefits culture from some who don't work, mum and dad have never had a job, they don't drive, the place they're born has no employment and they know no different, they have no aspirations or hope for anything better, so their 'job' becomes claiming benefits. Is that their fault, or does society deserve some blame for not offering something better! 

The situation is obviously different regarding the carnival, but the point remains, much of the problems in that community is routed in poverty. That doesn't absolve those commiting crime of responsibility, but it's short sighted to solely blame that community and I would hope people would agree, plain wrong to blame them because of their ethnicity. 

[Weihrauch17]

330 arrests, 50 officers injured and 4 people with critical injuries.  Not a single word of condemnation from any Politician.  Disgusting double standards.

[Penelope]

53 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I see it differently. You see it to varying degrees from all walks of life. Take the benefits culture from some who don't work, mum and dad have never had a job, they don't drive, the place they're born has no employment and they know no different, they have no aspirations or hope for anything better, so their 'job' becomes claiming benefits. Is that their fault, or does society deserve some blame for not offering something better! 

The situation is obviously different regarding the carnival, but the point remains, much of the problems in that community is routed in poverty. That doesn't absolve those commiting crime of responsibility, but it's short sighted to solely blame that community and I would hope people would agree, plain wrong to blame them because of their ethnicity. 

Routed in choice, you don't have the stay poor, exept the route of choice seems to be becoming a 'Road Man', an aspiring rapper or drug lord for a significant number.

How many of them have no shoes to ware? My dad didn't have shoes at times when he wasgrowing up in the East End of London, just after the war. A far more deprived time than now, so no, it's choice.

Edited August 27 by Penelope

[Mice!]

48 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

see it differently. You see it to varying degrees from all walks of life. Take the benefits culture from some who don't work, mum and dad have never had a job, they don't drive, the place they're born has no employment and they know no different, they have no aspirations or hope for anything better, so their 'job' becomes claiming benefits. Is that their fault, or does society deserve some blame for not offering something better! 

Nope, this country gives free education to a good standard,  we grew up poor, but understood that if you want more then you need to earn it and work for it, that's why my siblings and I worked hard and have a far better standard of living than we did growing up.

[12gauge82]

Your both obviously entitled to your opinion, but in mine. Until that mindset changes, people will continue to live impoverished lives, and people will needlessly suffer the negative consequences of what goes with it. 

29 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

330 arrests, 50 officers injured and 4 people with critical injuries.  Not a single word of condemnation from any Politician.  Disgusting double standards.

Agreed, two tier indeed. 

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

 

61 Police officers assaulted over the weekend.

Should be quiet a few in prison this week then?? I won't hold my breath, though, hey, Two Tier.

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, Wymondley said:

Most knife crime is committed by young black males... Racist apparently. 

And this is it in a nutshell.

Factual statistics make young black males more likely to stab / get stabbed, yet they cannot be profiled or targeted. 

And anyone with their head screwed on, and not afraid to stare at the truth of it, will know that we’ll never get on top of knife crime without stop and search and a focus of searches targeted at the statistically more probable.

Again, it’s more 1984 where we are told to disbelieve the truth of it / what our own eyes tell us.

[Westward]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I see it differently. You see it to varying degrees from all walks of life. Take the benefits culture from some who don't work, mum and dad have never had a job, they don't drive, the place they're born has no employment and they know no different, they have no aspirations or hope for anything better, so their 'job' becomes claiming benefits. Is that their fault, or does society deserve some blame for not offering something better! 

It's a depressing situation and unfortunately there's only one answer. It's called parenting and nothing else works, certainly not "society not offering something better" which I assume is code for more money. The reality is this: You can't educate pork!

My wife was born into a level of poverty unimaginable by today's spongers, but despite that her mother had something equally unimaginable by such people. She had standards. As a direct result, her 3 children all lived vastly better lives than most of the others on what would today be called a sink estate. My wife didn't follow the pattern by working at the paper bag factory and getting engaged to the first lad that asked her. Unlike most others around there she wasn't married by 20, living in a council house, and raising 2 or 3 kids within a couple of years. She aspired to better things, married me at 26 and between us we've raised 3 successful sons.  Her older brother lives in a £1.5 million house, a stone's throw from Hampton Court. No one ever gave him a penny and at 80 years old he worked continuously from the age of 16 until retirement at 70 odd and has never claimed any benefits.

 

[12gauge82]

26 minutes ago, Westward said:

It's a depressing situation and unfortunately there's only one answer. It's called parenting and nothing else works, certainly not "society not offering something better" which I assume is code for more money. The reality is this: You can't educate pork!

My wife was born into a level of poverty unimaginable by today's spongers, but despite that her mother had something equally unimaginable by such people. She had standards. As a direct result, her 3 children all lived vastly better lives than most of the others on what would today be called a sink estate. My wife didn't follow the pattern by working at the paper bag factory and getting engaged to the first lad that asked her. Unlike most others around there she wasn't married by 20, living in a council house, and raising 2 or 3 kids within a couple of years. She aspired to better things, married me at 26 and between us we've raised 3 successful sons.  Her older brother lives in a £1.5 million house, a stone's throw from Hampton Court. No one ever gave him a penny and at 80 years old he worked continuously from the age of 16 until retirement at 70 odd and has never claimed any benefits.

 

I wasn't going to go into the point you now make as it's a good one and is a large subject. But the short answer is I agree, but it's cultural. The UK population has been grinding its way up from surfdom since 1066. With standards improving via the working class (and the industrial revolution) rolling it's sleeves up and working themselves out of poverty. So it is in our culture to put the stiff upper lip on and carry on. Until recently anyway. 

It's why mass uncontrolled migration is a very bad idea, mixing people who don't share our values and don't want to is bad for too many reasons to list here. 

But the other half of that is we have a society increasingly built on the principle that it's fine to exploit the labour of others to a perverse degree. A society where no one cares for their fellow human and a society where principles don't matter, but rules are everything. We then wonder why the down trodden don't want to act like decent people. Does it make it right? No! Of course not. But it's where we're at. 

[Dougy]

51 minutes ago, Westward said:

It's a depressing situation and unfortunately there's only one answer. It's called parenting and nothing else works, certainly not "society not offering something better" which I assume is code for more money. The reality is this: You can't educate pork!

 

 

I totally agree but the only problem is its now into the 4th generation, you have gangster style parents bringing up the kids in gangster style areas and cultures. 

[Wymondley]

4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Take the benefits culture from some who don't work, mum and dad have never had a job, they don't drive, the place they're born has no employment and they know no different, they have no aspirations or hope for anything better, so their 'job' becomes claiming benefits. Is that their fault, or does society deserve some blame for not offering something better! 

I don't disagree with you, I've met people like this, however I've found most think "it's all the fault of Thatcher, the fat cat bosses, the Tory scum" or whoever else they've been told is to blame, because it's never them.

Having a benefit dependent underclass suits the agenda for the left.

But does that alone lead to the type of crime we've seen at the Notting hill carnival?

I'm no historical scholar, but from what I know of the "Jarrow marchers" none of them knifed, threw acid at or sexually assaulted anyone on their march to highlight the unemployment and poverty in the north east.

However, as the son of someone who grew up in a single parent household in very rural Northumberland in the 1920s, I  suspect we probably have a different understanding of what "poverty" really is.

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

 

 

But does that alone lead to the type of crime we've seen at the Notting hill carnival?

 

No, like I said above, it's culturally linked. 

9 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

 

However, as the son of someone who grew up in a single parent household in very rural Northumberland in the 1920s, I  suspect we probably have a different understanding of what "poverty" really is.

As I'm sure a surf from the year 1035 would. It's all relavent and the problems from poverty will manifest itself in different ways. 

In some, they'll stick knives in each other. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

She had standards. As a direct result, her 3 children a

And that's the massive difference,  especially these days, I don't think it's a coincidence that all my friends and family are workers. 

I'll never forget my Dad saying how proud he was at having mine and my brothers overalls on the washing line, even after he couldn't work anymore we still understood that he wanted to.

54 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

don't disagree with you, I've met people like this, however I've found most think "it's all the fault of Thatcher, the fat cat bosses, the Tory scum" or whoever else they've been told is to blame, because it's never them.

Having a benefit dependent underclass suits the agenda for the left.

Yep, always Thatchers fault,  yet Labour have never reopened any mines in Wales, they've been been back in power often enough,  I'd guess your right and they'd rather have large communities depending on benefits rather than earning a wage.

[Penelope]

There's a great meme doing the rounds, on this subject, featuring Chard, Bromhead and Arndorf.

14 hours ago, Wymondley said:

I don't disagree with you, I've met people like this, however I've found most think "it's all the fault of Thatcher, the fat cat bosses, the Tory scum" or whoever else they've been told is to blame, because it's never them.

Having a benefit dependent underclass suits the agenda for the left.

But does that alone lead to the type of crime we've seen at the Notting hill carnival?

I'm no historical scholar, but from what I know of the "Jarrow marchers" none of them knifed, threw acid at or sexually assaulted anyone on their march to highlight the unemployment and poverty in the north east.

However, as the son of someone who grew up in a single parent household in very rural Northumberland in the 1920s, I  suspect we probably have a different understanding of what "poverty" really is.

Indeed, very little to do with poverty.