Say good bye to lead shot, HSE report.

[BobbyH]

We will just have to wait and see what happens 

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

What the proof load consists of is irrelevant. ‘Nitro proof’ is good for normal pressure steel, HP steel is good for HP Steel.

And the ban doesn’t have to go through parliament, the HSE can ban anything it wishes.

As I said just thinking out loud 👍

[Weihrauch17]

37 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

They did it at my local clay ground using 21 gram steel and found them disappointing. And these are AA shots on CPSA ratings not folk who turn in average scores but folk who turn in 96% and above scores.

The HSE recommendations almost say Steel is **** for Clays in allowing the Top Clay Shooters to keep on using Lead which is in itself scandalous.

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

The HSE recommendations almost say Steel is **** for Clays in allowing the Top Clay Shooters to keep on using Lead which is in itself scandalous.

It is scandalous, because if we needed further proof it’s not about lead, then there it is. 🤷‍♂️

[Weihrauch17]

13 minutes ago, Scully said:

It is scandalous, because if we needed further proof it’s not about lead, then there it is. 🤷‍♂️

Yep in a nut shell.

[BobbyH]

So to me, it’s the fact that the HSE are allowing top level shooters to still use lead and us peasants to use steel…..

Its the same as F1 drivers being allowed to use petrol engines and the rest of us MUST buy electric cars because of the environment…..terrible idea. 

[BobbyH]

Is it worth raising a petition, just to get our voices heard??

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

And the ban doesn’t have to go through parliament, the HSE can ban anything it wishes.

Absolutely.
We need to stop the thinking of 'If it goes through' or 'the HSE has proposed'
This folks, is how its going to be, with maybe a small amount of tweaking for better or worse, broadly, this is what the future is going to be.
And when weve all settled down with that, the next round of bans will come.

Lets be realistic, theyve gone to war on internal combustion engines, that nearly every man and woman over the age of 17 has access to, and have put a time frame on removing that choice.
Private firearm ownership is small fry in the scheme of things.

[Westley]

On 14/12/2024 at 11:30, islandgun said:

I wonder if the Gov will buy back all the guns that are unsuitable for steel at realistic prices, or perhaps subsidise bismuth to affordable levels...hmmm i wonder

Probably...........just after they have sorted out the illegal immigration problem   !

[rbrowning2]

They will not buy back unsuitable firearms, it’s not like the pistol ban and every shotgun can use bismuth.  plus they took years to pay out on the pistol ban.

[Conor O'Gorman]

A BASC overview has been published and is here:

https://basc.org.uk/moving-away-from-lead-the-next-stage/

 

[HantsRob]

15 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

They did it at my local clay ground using 21 gram steel and found them disappointing. And these are AA shots on CPSA ratings not folk who turn in average scores but folk who turn in 96% and above scores.

Are they able to say objectively what they found disappointing?

Did scores drop, and why?
What about the performance did they not like?
How much of this is a bad taste before they started?

I ask that as I once moaned about CompX being "slow" compared to others. A reply from an international shooter was around consistency, that if you always use it, you become accustom to its use and can be as adept with it. He said something similar around steel that he doesn't want to change as he's used to his go-to cart, but he will adapt fairly easily.

I just wonder what the cream of the crop have to say at to why it's disappointing?

 

I am not a pro-steel fanboy, I am trying to understand why they were disappointing, to expand my knowledge.

[Scully]

There will be no compensation for anything, because no guns are being banned. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

There will be no compensation for anything, because no guns are being banned. 

Exactly, but what about all the lead cartridges, will they buy them back?

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Exactly, but what about all the lead cartridges, will they buy them back?

There was something mentioned about that if I recall in the consultation, but I would think any transition period would rule that out? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

There was something mentioned about that if I recall in the consultation, but I would think any transition period would rule that out? 

I reckon that's about the sum of it.

Use it up and then buy steel (soft iron) cartridges

[HantsRob]

It would just be easier to stop the legal sales of lead cartridges, and the transition is then absolutely guaranteed, so TC doesn't feel rushed to shoot his 9,999 cartridges in stock!

I have a few thousand, I will burn through those next year though.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

It would just be easier to stop the legal sales of lead cartridges, and the transition is then absolutely guaranteed, so TC doesn't feel rushed to shoot his 9,999 cartridges in stock!

I have a few thousand, I will burn through those next year though.

I better check where all the others have gone then....

[enfieldspares]

Quote

There will be a derogation for current and prospective Olympic and Paralympic athletes to continue using lead shot for target shooting. This will be subject to a cap on the number of cartridges they can use. That cap is 1.25 million which equates to 0.7 per cent of the cartridges previously used for target shooting with shotguns.

So that's thirty-four tons of lead shot that will be OK? Has BASC an intent to argue that the "tonnage" of lead shot from .22 Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns (such as the Webley & Scott bolt action) will be a mere fraction of this and that there are no non-lead alternative .22 Rimfire or 9mm Rimfire shotgun cartridges.

Or will they lobby for compensation to be paid for these guns?

[HantsRob]

40 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I better check where all the others have gone then....

Oooo you have an RFD licence for the rest? Proper fancy pants!

Side question, I assume the 10k "limit" is mostly anecdotal rather than actual law?

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Side question, I assume the 10k "limit" is mostly anecdotal rather than actual law?

How many shotgun cartridges can you store at home? We asked Charles Bull of Just Cartridges who replied: ” It depends on the weight or load of the cartridge as it relates to the Net Explosive Quantity (NEQ) but in broad terms, under a normal shotgun certificate, an individual can store up to about 10,000 cartridges.3 Feb 2022

I would assume, that the 10000 figure means you can only store that quantity in one place ie home.

[kevin55]

• Regulator proposes alternatives to lead ammunition would need to be used for some outdoor shooting

Isn't clay shooting 2/3rd to 3/4 or more of all UK shooting? 'Some' implies less I thought

Apologies if I've missed this earlier in the thread

[Poor Shot]

17 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

They did it at my local clay ground using 21 gram steel and found them disappointing. And these are AA shots on CPSA ratings not folk who turn in average scores but folk who turn in 96% and above scores.

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias in so far as the shooters who took part with a prior belief that the steel cartridges wouldn't be as good as the lead cartridges.

It could also be the case that those particular steel cartridges used weren't very good, that does happen from time to time. I once had an extremely poor batch of Fiocchi TT1's which had degraded wadding which shot out like a party popper and deformed shot in sizes from 5 to 9. The patterns were horrendous and scores reflected the quality being on average 40% down. 

I have used steel 28g 7's in the past and couldn't really tell that much difference on everyday sporting targets out to 40-50 yards. I would still use them today had the price not shot up from £240's per thou to near £400 per thou for no apparent reason. 

Lately I have been using the 16g 7.5 super light biowad steels from Express on a local straw bailer shoot and I've had high gun in the 3 of the 4 shoots I've used them on and I'm not an exceedingly great shot. 

The only issues I can see that we are going to face surrounds supply of biodegradable wads and the resulting price gouging that will occur. It's already expensive enough and we all know how the manufacturers love a good crisis to use as an excuse to increase margins. 

Most CPSA registered shoots allow the use of plastic wads which makes a transition quite painless but it's not a great look for the sport to be flinging hundreds of pieces of plastic litter into the countryside each weekend. It's a fairly safe bet that the use of single use plastic wads with no easy reclamation methods will be next on the ban list. 

BASC, CPSA and whoever else can be considered a stakeholder need to work together with Hull, Gamebore, Eley, Express etc and ensure that they acknowledge that lead is dead and be prepared to immediately start adapting to a supply chain based around steel shot and biodegrable wads. If they don't and the manufacturers cling onto their existing lead based product lines right up until the transition deadline then we'll all be in for a world of pain with £600 per thou clay cartridges and the overnight death of the sport.   

Barrel damage is a concern. You're a lot more likely to come across a faulty wad which does not perform as designed and allows the shot to scuff the barrels when you're firing 100's in one weekend compared to an average seasons wildfowling where a single box of 25 may last the season or a season driven duck shooting where a slab 250 may last a few outings. Most manufacturers have a disclaimer on the cartridge box stating they will not be responsible for barrel damage resulting from the use of steel shot. I can't say I've experienced barrel damage from any of the 1000's of steel cartridges I've used in any of my guns to date but It only takes one failed wad to leave a nice long score line up the barrel and that gun is immediately devalued. 

Gun use and design may evolve to a point where barrels become a consumable part as with center fire rifles and periodic replacement is the expectation once a barrel has become too worn out from steel shot damage. Perhaps internal barrel coatings will evolve to cope with steel shot damage. 

 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias in so far as the shooters who took part with a prior belief that the steel cartridges wouldn't be as good as the lead cartridges.

No. These are very competent DTL and Double Rise shooters. On DTL the best of them will score 100/3 or 100/5 which is one hundred straight with three, or five, needing a second barrel. 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

Sounds like a case of confirmation bias in so far as the shooters who took part with a prior belief that the steel cartridges wouldn't be as good as the lead cartridges.

It could also be the case that those particular steel cartridges used weren't very good, that does happen from time to time. I once had an extremely poor batch of Fiocchi TT1's which had degraded wadding which shot out like a party popper and deformed shot in sizes from 5 to 9. The patterns were horrendous and scores reflected the quality being on average 40% down. 

I have used steel 28g 7's in the past and couldn't really tell that much difference on everyday sporting targets out to 40-50 yards. I would still use them today had the price not shot up from £240's per thou to near £400 per thou for no apparent reason. 

Lately I have been using the 16g 7.5 super light biowad steels from Express on a local straw bailer shoot and I've had high gun in the 3 of the 4 shoots I've used them on and I'm not an exceedingly great shot. 

The only issues I can see that we are going to face surrounds supply of biodegradable wads and the resulting price gouging that will occur. It's already expensive enough and we all know how the manufacturers love a good crisis to use as an excuse to increase margins. 

Most CPSA registered shoots allow the use of plastic wads which makes a transition quite painless but it's not a great look for the sport to be flinging hundreds of pieces of plastic litter into the countryside each weekend. It's a fairly safe bet that the use of single use plastic wads with no easy reclamation methods will be next on the ban list. 

BASC, CPSA and whoever else can be considered a stakeholder need to work together with Hull, Gamebore, Eley, Express etc and ensure that they acknowledge that lead is dead and be prepared to immediately start adapting to a supply chain based around steel shot and biodegrable wads. If they don't and the manufacturers cling onto their existing lead based product lines right up until the transition deadline then we'll all be in for a world of pain with £600 per thou clay cartridges and the overnight death of the sport.   

Barrel damage is a concern. You're a lot more likely to come across a faulty wad which does not perform as designed and allows the shot to scuff the barrels when you're firing 100's in one weekend compared to an average seasons wildfowling where a single box of 25 may last the season or a season driven duck shooting where a slab 250 may last a few outings. Most manufacturers have a disclaimer on the cartridge box stating they will not be responsible for barrel damage resulting from the use of steel shot. I can't say I've experienced barrel damage from any of the 1000's of steel cartridges I've used in any of my guns to date but It only takes one failed wad to leave a nice long score line up the barrel and that gun is immediately devalued. 

Gun use and design may evolve to a point where barrels become a consumable part as with center fire rifles and periodic replacement is the expectation once a barrel has become too worn out from steel shot damage. Perhaps internal barrel coatings will evolve to cope with steel shot damage. 

 

 

Problem is the cartridge manufactures are struggling with component supply issues due to Covid and wars, so until normally returns they have their hands tide. Fortunately we hopefully have five years.