had my 243

[Mr_Logic]

You wouldn't happen to wear a black uniform to your employment would you?

 

A photocopy would probably be dismissed by a cop in this situation as the guy was simply trying to be a PITA, we do have police officers that are guilty of this unfortunatly....

 

Glad you got the rifle back and remember to check for damage, if it's anything like the items I have recieved back - they will be damaged, and when you approach the desk to complain you will get "well, you can submit a claim but it probably won't get you anywhere"....

Not at all. I just know the letter of the law, and while I disagree with this officer, his actions are legal.

[bobt]

At least it was all sorted?

I keep a copy in the pocket of my rifle slip, that way I cant forget it.

[CharlieT]

Whilst carrying a copy is a good idea something tells me that in this instance the officer involved would not have accepted a photocopy and would have continued to behave like the unhelpful beligerant so and so he obviously is.

 

I am amased that in this day and age when the police need to have as many members of the public on side a small minority of officers continue to behave like this. These types need weeding out and sacking. They are a disgrace to the service.

[Breastman]

ok.... The law is pretty clear on this. You must be able to prove that you are licensed for a particular firearm, not just that you have an FAC. The onus is on you to be able to do this, not the police officer to check. The Police are entitled to confiscate firearms until this has been done; this is in the Acts.

 

The PNC simply says FAC or not, the national firearms database has the details. Most coppers don't know if it exists or not so they don't know they can check it. Therefore, the officer in this case did his job correctly, and by the book.

 

Personally I think he should have taken the time to get HQ to check the database, and been more amicable, but there is no requirement to do this. We may not like it, but that's the law.

 

If you produce a photocopy then you are proving legal ownership in my eyes, so that would have been fine.

 

 

However i'm pretty certain that while a photocopy of your FAC/SGC might stop you having to go down the station if theres something wrong with the PNC, a photocopy doesn't qualify as confirming your ownership 'officially' and they can still take your guns if they want to w******. As has already been said in this thread i doubt the officer in question would have accepted a photocopy. And if Noel had of produced his ticket his car probably would've been gone over with a fine tooth comb

 

Mark

Edited March 15, 2010 by Breastman

[Ferret Master]

It should probably also be pointed out that a photocopy of a licence doesn't prove it hasn't been revoked since the copy was made.

 

FM

[bobt]

If they have the certificate number a quick call will check.

[Vince Green]

A lot of these armed response type coppers have a real attitude problem. You only have to see the way they swagger around at Bisley. My mate, (copper and shooter) can't stand them and says a lot of rank and file police officers share that view.

I think you just got a bad one and put it down to experience.

[HDAV]

while on my way home from lamping saturday night 1am i had a pull for a tail light out pulled over and it just happen to be the armed responce unit .striaght away he asked what firearms where on board

 

This is what i dont get.... if you were driving back from a night out or the airport or your missus was driving would he ask that? What would he ahve done if you didnt have them in the car or didnt reveal them.

[hookbones]

wasnt going to mention this but hey...

 

if you want an example of their fallibility a few years ago at Diggle on sadalworth moor 1st they left their guns on the range and left ! and after being asked repeatedly over the phone to check they have everything they screeched back in a panic.... then started to drive off with the weapons on the vehicle roof with people shouting and chasing after them.

 

how long would any of us kept our ticket/guns had we displayed such a dereliction of firearm security ? and do you think had they driven off and lost them along the way the public would ever be informed ? ........no me neither.

[markm]

This is what i dont get.... if you were driving back from a night out or the airport or your missus was driving would he ask that? What would he ahve done if you didnt have them in the car or didnt reveal them.

 

A couple of years ago I got pulled over for a 'break light out' and they knew I was a SGC/FAC holder. Maybe when they do a vehicle check the owners details come back with such information. It was mid day, kids and wife in car and the first question I was asked was "Do you have any guns in this vehicle?"

[fortune82]

I had a similar situation several years ago. I was sat at home having a beer when there was a knock on the door. It was plod claiming they had been called to a domestic incident. I was at home alone and allowed them to see all round the house! They then claimed as there was alcohol involved (me having a couple of pints in front of TV!) they were going to confiscate my shotgun! They removed it and an empty cartridge bag?

 

I then went to police station the next day and received a full apology and my shotgun back but never received an explanation for what had happened.

 

I just put it down to some semi literate plod seeing SHOTGUN and thinking I had a sawn-off under the bed or something.

[HDAV]

A couple of years ago I got pulled over for a 'break light out' and they knew I was a SGC/FAC holder. Maybe when they do a vehicle check the owners details come back with such information. It was mid day, kids and wife in car and the first question I was asked was "Do you have any guns in this vehicle?"

 

SO when they run it through the PNC it shows that the registered keeper of the vehicle is licenced, i understand the PNC etc to check if vehicle comes back as stolen etc, but surely the point is if they have PNC'd it they know you have a licence so it doesn't matter if you have guns in the car your allowed them! surely its bigger issue if anyone else has a gun in the vehicle not an SGC/FAC holder! I think I am going to take the missus car shooting from now on!

[malkiserow]

I think that a photocopy cannot be taken as a replacement of the real licence - But it does have positive confirmation of your details including your licence number that they can use to check back with your issuing authority.

 

There is a significant difference between a SGC and an FAC in that a SGC is not specific to calibres and quantity etc but a FAC is very specific.

 

So if you are an average police man stopping a car and the PNC shows either a FAC or SGC then if you have a SGC shown on record and you have a shotgun in the car then all is good. However, if you have an FAC and you have a rifle in the car, it is less clear that that gun is allowed on your licence. Logically it might be reasonable to assume it is. But going back to being average Mr policeman they have to decide to give you the benefit of the doubt or confiscate it. If you have the original certificate great. Even a photocopy for them to verify the full details over the phone is almost as good. But with no licence number a risk-averse policeman will confiscate it. Most of the general public would probably support him.

 

IMHO the onus is on the gun holder to minimise awkward situations through positive confirmation of ID and Licence number etc. It is not a perfect world, mistakes happen and any copper stopping a vehicle does not know exactly what situation he is walking into. He does already know the likely driver of that car is gun holder. He needs to quickly grasp what situation he is dealing with, hopefully just a back light or whatever the original causal reason to stop you.

 

Sure some average officers cannot know all the rules of gun ownership etc and I bet some officers might get a bit of attitude from some gun owners on occasions.

 

Your drivers licence, which as we all know is really an ID card, becomes helpful in proving who you are in situations like this.

 

BTW - I carry a photocopy of my SGC with me as I have already thwarted an attempted break-in to my car (parked in a field gateway at night) and would not want to lose my original licence.

[inthedark]

Classic. There was no power to take your rifle off you, and were I in your position I'd be visting a 'no win no fee' solicitor expecting an entry level payout of about £3,500. Not a money issue really and it would make a good charity donation, but when they are looking at legal action its a great motivator for making sure their staff know what they're doing, and you may save someone else similar pain.

[Nial]

Classic. There was no power to take your rifle off you

 

 

As posted further up the thread, if you can't prove to them you're licensed they can

take the guns off you until you can.

 

Baseline, you have to show your licence.

 

?

 

Nial.

[Breastman]

If they have the certificate number a quick call will check.

 

Providing its during normal office hours that is, ONLY the FLD has access to detailed firearms records, and assuming the system is working at the time.

 

Classic. There was no power to take your rifle off you, and were I in your position I'd be visting a 'no win no fee' solicitor expecting an entry level payout of about £3,500. Not a money issue really and it would make a good charity donation, but when they are looking at legal action its a great motivator for making sure their staff know what they're doing, and you may save someone else similar pain.

 

2 years ago i wiped my car out on some black ice on the way to a shooting comp, and it was a Sunday so the FLD was closed AND the PNC was broken at the time so none of my details were available to the officer attending the scene. I always carry my tickets with me though so he just checked those. If i hadn't had my original FAC with me he would have been perfectly within his duty to confiscate the rifle i had with me, until I could prove i was the legal owner, its part of the 1968 Firearms Act.

 

Noel didn't have his certificate with him so the copper just followed the inconvenient letter of the law.

 

Mark

[inthedark]

As posted further up the thread, if you can't prove to them you're licensed they can

take the guns off you until you can.

 

Baseline, you have to show your licence.

 

?

 

Nial.

 

There is no legal requirement to carry or show your certificate. Guns etc can be seized if an offence is suspected, in this instance that is obviously not the case cos there was no arrest made - possession of an unlicensed firearm is supposed to carry a mandatory jail sentence and and he would have been arrested. The cops cannot make it up as they go along, he was either suspected of committing an offence and got processed, or he wasn't and went home with gun. No half way house.

[Dave-G]

I think the plod is getting too pedantic for it's own good. Why would the officer think an FAC holder - who has shown himself to be of good character and integrity be carrying a firearm that he is not licensed to possess?

[Breastman]

Guns etc can be seized if an offence is suspected, in this instance that is obviously not the case cos there was no arrest made - possession of an unlicensed firearm is supposed to carry a mandatory jail sentence and and he would have been arrested. The cops cannot make it up as they go along, he was either suspected of committing an offence and got processed, or he wasn't and went home with gun. No half way house.

 

Don't forget to tell the officer who confiscates your guns from you for not having your original certificate that, as he carries them back to the patrol car.

 

Mark

Edited March 16, 2010 by Breastman

[Evil Elvis]

FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO THINK YOU DONT HAVE TO CARRY YOURE LICENCE YOU ARE TECHNICALLY RIGHT......BUT:

 

iF ASKED BY A POLICE OFFICER TO PRODUCE YOUR LICENCE AND YOU CANT, THEY ARE PERFECTLY WITHIN THIER RIGHT TO CONFISCATE THEM UNTIL SUCH TIME AS YOU DO PRODUCE IT.

 

READ THE BOOK GOT THE TSHIRT DID MY HOMEWORK!!!

 

SO THOSE OF YOU NOT CARRYING IT RISK A LOAD OF GRIEF.

[Breastman]

Let there be light!

 

Require production of Certificates

 

23.8 Section 48 of the 1968 Act provides that

a constable may demand from any person

believed to be in possession of a firearm or

ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968

Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production

of their firearm certificate, or, as the case

may be, their shot gun certificate. Section

48(2) of the 1968 Act provides a power to

seize weapons and ammunition in cases of

non-compliance.

From 2002 Firearms Law; Guidance to the Police

 

Chapter 23 on page 125

 

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio...s-Guidance.html

 

Mark

[fullbore]

What is so hard about about carrying your dertificates when you carry firearms? When you see how thrilled some of the members are on here when the certificate is granted iin the first place, they's probably carry it when out gardening or somesuch, then an undetermined period of time passes and suddenly it's an embarrasment and a chore to carry. I think those who are saying they don't and won't carry them, well you may have made the wrong choice i.e. an FAC holder if you want to be a rebel

[HDAV]

I guess its like the fact you dont need a pasport to travel within the EU, ever tried getting on a plane without one? (I have, glad i had it with me in the end but the systems can't cope with the law!)

[Mr_Logic]

There is no legal requirement to carry or show your certificate. Guns etc can be seized if an offence is suspected, in this instance that is obviously not the case cos there was no arrest made - possession of an unlicensed firearm is supposed to carry a mandatory jail sentence and and he would have been arrested. The cops cannot make it up as they go along, he was either suspected of committing an offence and got processed, or he wasn't and went home with gun. No half way house.

You are wrong here. It's too late for me to **** about finding chapter and verse. Read the Firearms Act & subsequent amendments.

[Dave-G]

What is so hard about about carrying your dertificates when you carry firearms? When you see how thrilled some of the members are on here when the certificate is granted iin the first place, they's probably carry it when out gardening or somesuch, then an undetermined period of time passes and suddenly it's an embarrasment and a chore to carry. I think those who are saying they don't and won't carry them, well you may have made the wrong choice i.e. an FAC holder if you want to be a rebel

 

You are welcome to take your certificate out gardening mate.

 

You seem to have forgotten what the thread all about - the absence of a ticket that was sent in for a variation while travelling to or from shooting - OR WHATEVER. If it's in for a variation he can hardly have it with him - well not in my world anyway. Those who are saying it's not a legal requirement to carry it are only backing up the fact that it's not a legal requirement to have it with them when out shooting, gardening, making the tea, having a shower etc.

 

Look into this can of worms with a magnifying glass: Regardless of where or what he was doing with his rifle he (allegedly) had access to a rifle and ammo without being in possession of a firearms certificate. According to plodo he was breaking the law even if he was back at his house painting the ceiling with it. If that's the case we are now to surrender our firearms when applying for a variation or renewing.