Extended Forcing Cones & Fibre Wads

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

I can't/won't speak for anyone else, but I rather think my last reply (and possibly another) were in response to your, "short lead cartridge in a long chambered gun.

No, it's probably my fault? I think I may have misunderstood your response?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

All is well in the end!

[Nightrider]

On 12/10/2018 at 19:14, matone said:

I shoot regularly at clays with people using `overbored` guns and fibre wads....they break the clays just the same as I do with my tighter bored guns..........more hypothesis then actual problem ,I feel!

Try testing some patterns through an over-bored gun with extended Forcing cones, using the same quality and shot size ammunition with Fibre wad and Plastic wads. I have been doing this over the past 3 years. My most recent testing of this type  gave 23% FEWER pellets in the pattern at 40 yards from same choke boring,  average over 6 patterns from each of plastic and fibre wads.  It doesn't prevent them breaking clays but the disturbance to the pattern is very real.  As are some other issues associtaed with hot gas melting some of the shot pellets.

[wymberley]

43 minutes ago, Nightrider said:

Try testing some patterns through an over-bored gun with extended Forcing cones, using the same quality and shot size ammunition with Fibre wad and Plastic wads. I have been doing this over the past 3 years. My most recent testing of this type  gave 23% FEWER pellets in the pattern at 40 yards from same choke boring,  average over 6 patterns from each of plastic and fibre wads.  It doesn't prevent them breaking clays but the disturbance to the pattern is very real.  As are some other issues associtaed with hot gas melting some of the shot pellets.

I was getting the full monty;  closer to 30% loss, pattern - if you could call it that - abysmal with both balling and crypto balling and the dirtiest barrel you've ever seen. To top it off I bought the cartridges for a particular reason which then I had to start all over again having disposed of the problem gun to someone who was not obliged as I am to shoot fibre trying to find something that suited my needs, that my subsequently purchased guns liked and were available. Fortunately, Super Game High Bird 28g are ideal in my SbS and Blue Diamond similarly in the OU. Not so easy to find now as previously if you want to use 7s for game because of the currently available reduced choice.

[Nightrider]

On 12/10/2018 at 19:27, Guest stevo said:

This ☝️ Both my DT 11 s ( trap and sport ) are amazing with fibre , I even swapped over to fibre for skeet , they sound a little different so most seem to think there not performing . It’s all a load of tosh 🤔

Please bring your sport gun over and try on my pattern plates; I will show you why it sounds different!

 

[matone]

1 hour ago, Nightrider said:

Try testing some patterns through an over-bored gun with extended Forcing cones, using the same quality and shot size ammunition with Fibre wad and Plastic wads. I have been doing this over the past 3 years. My most recent testing of this type  gave 23% FEWER pellets in the pattern at 40 yards from same choke boring,  average over 6 patterns from each of plastic and fibre wads.  It doesn't prevent them breaking clays but the disturbance to the pattern is very real.  As are some other issues associtaed with hot gas melting some of the shot pellets.

Broken clays count,not patterns !

[Nightrider]

1 minute ago, matone said:

Broken clays count,not patterns !

Hahaha...

[matone]

I shoot at several `fibre only` grounds which are patronised by people using the whole gamut of guns from the top to bottom with bores of every persuasion.Top scores are usually put in by top shots ,many using the latest fad of guns .It doesn`t seem to affect their scores .......

[Nightrider]

22 minutes ago, matone said:

I shoot at several `fibre only` grounds which are patronised by people using the whole gamut of guns from the top to bottom with bores of every persuasion.Top scores are usually put in by top shots ,many using the latest fad of guns .It doesn`t seem to affect their scores .......

A top shot with 30% less pellets in his pattern will still outscore anyone with a better pattern that has not been put in the right place....

[Scully]

I just shoot at the target; if it breaks or drops out of the sky I don’t worry about it, if it doesn’t I don’t worry about it. 🙂

[Stonepark]

9 hours ago, Nightrider said:

Try testing some patterns through an over-bored gun with extended Forcing cones, using the same quality and shot size ammunition with Fibre wad and Plastic wads. I have been doing this over the past 3 years. My most recent testing of this type  gave 23% FEWER pellets in the pattern at 40 yards from same choke boring,  average over 6 patterns from each of plastic and fibre wads.  It doesn't prevent them breaking clays but the disturbance to the pattern is very real.  As are some other issues associtaed with hot gas melting some of the shot pellets.

I suspect you are not using ammunition that is identical with only the wad being different, hence your poor results and the resulting comments .

Why not try 2 loads each with same case, same primer, same powder and powder weight in grains, different wad but both weighing the same and occupying the same space, same shot and weight, same closure and then post the results.

Only then can you demonstrate the difference between wad types, if there are any other differences , the test and results are flawed as you are not comparing like with like.

 

[Nightrider]

13 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I suspect you are not using ammunition that is identical with only the wad being different, hence your poor results and the resulting comments .

Why not try 2 loads each with same case, same primer, same powder and powder weight in grains, different wad but both weighing the same and occupying the same space, same shot and weight, same closure and then post the results.

Only then can you demonstrate the difference between wad types, if there are any other differences , the test and results are flawed as you are not comparing like with like.

 

The cartridges I have found the differences with are premium competition loads, where a plastic wad and a fibre wad of the same type is avaialble. They are made to offer  a performance level that is very close, so that people can use as near to the same performance with either type, when normally using plastic wads but attending grounds where they do not allow plastic wads.   I mentioned the 23% figure being tests done in the last three weeks. I have been conducting similart tests over almost 3 years now. Previous tests using another similat premium cartridge fibre and plastic wad option gave even greater pellet density reduction.

As you will see, wymberley ( a few comments above) got closer to 30% reduced density in his over-bored gun (with extended forcing cones). 

There is no need for all the powder/primer combinations you mention. These are premium cartridges made to be a match for each other. I have also tested them in standard bore guns, with standard size bores and short forcing cones, and in this type of bore they DO perform very similarly with MUCH less difference between the pattern densities.

But, when the fibre and plastic wad versions were fired in over-bored bores with extended Forcing cones, the 20% to 30% reduced pattern density can be easily seen for yourself.

I have actually done these tests, in depth; Have you???  Somehow I doubt it... as otheriwse you would already know.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Nightrider
spelling of 'already'

[Robertt]

I've found a really nice B525, circa 2006.

Really tempted but I only use felt wads and all the above is putting me off ! 😕

 

 

[Stonepark]

48 minutes ago, Robertt said:

I've found a really nice B525, circa 2006.

Really tempted but I only use felt wads and all the above is putting me off ! 😕

 

 

A 2006 b525 had the short cones but may be overbored to 0.741.i wouldn't worry about it as even by 2013 the cones had only been lengthened to 2.5 inch, no where near the 12 inch or more of the DT11.

 

[Stonepark]

53 minutes ago, Nightrider said:

The cartridges I have found the differences with are premium competition loads, where a plastic wad and a fibre wad of the same type is avaialble. They are made to offer  a performance level that is very close, so that people can use as near to the same performance with either type, when normally using plastic wads but attending grounds where they do not allow plastic wads.   I mentioned the 23% figure being tests done in the last three weeks. I have been conducting similart tests over almost 3 years now. Previous tests using another similat premium cartridge fibre and plastic wad option gave even greater pellet density reduction.

As you will see, wymberley ( a few comments above) got closer to 30% reduced density in his over-bored gun (with extended forcing cones). 

There is no need for all the powder/primer combinations you mention. These are premium cartridges made to be a match for each other. I have also tested them in standard bore guns, with standard size bores and short forcing cones, and in this type of bore they DO perform very similarly with MUCH less difference between the pattern densities.

But, when the fibre and plastic wad versions were fired in over-bored bores with extended Forcing cones, the 20% to 30% reduced pattern density can be easily seen for yourself.

I have actually done these tests, in depth; Have you???  Somehow I doubt it... as otheriwse you would alraed know.

 

The whole point I make is that using

 i have analysed a lot of off the shelf cartridges by stripping them down and noting components and weight of shot and powder as well as patterning them.   It is common to find that the 'same' version of the plastic and fibre version of the cartridge are using different powders, different powders mean different pressures, different pressues mean different patterns.

I have rebuilt 'problem' fibre cartridges and eliminated the poor patterns by generally adding an opc or removing excess powder and provided that data back to manufacturer.

 

Unfortunately more than a few manufactuers have premium lines which are anything but when it comes to their fibre offerings as whilst adequate they do not spend as much time developing these as they do their plastic competition lines. They may look the same externally using same case and shot and claimed speed, but a shotgun is about pattern and it is rare that these match especially if they have gone for speed.

 

My testing in 12 is done on 2 main guns  one with 5 inch cones and. 735 barrel and one with 1 cones and a 725 barrel.

 

Most of my current testing is done in 410, where any change is magnified compared to the 12 bore and i am currently lengthening forcing cones to study the impact on my fibre loads.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scully]

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 i have analysed a lot of off the shelf cartridges by stripping them down and noting components and weight of shot and powder as well as patterning them.   It is common to find that the 'same' version of the plastic and fibre version of the cartridge are using different powders, different powders mean different pressures, different pressues mean different patterns.

I have rebuilt 'problem' fibre cartridges and eliminated the poor patterns by generally adding an opc or removing excess powder and provided that data back to manufacturer.

 

Unfortunately more than a few manufactuers have premium lines which are anything but when it comes to their fibre offerings as whilst adequate they do not spend as much time developing these as they do their plastic competition lines. They may look the same externally using same case and shot and claimed speed, but a shotgun is about pattern and it is rare that these match especially if they have gone for speed.

 

My testing in 12 is done on 2 main guns  one with 5 inch cones and. 735 barrel and one with 1 cones and a 725 barrel.

 

Most of my current testing is done in 410, where any change is magnified compared to the 12 bore and i am currently lengthening forcing cones to study the impact on my fibre loads.

 

 

 

 

 

I have to ask....why? 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I have to ask....why? 

Which part?

 

If it us the 410 cones they were between 10mm and 12mm and not very well polished. I have increased in increments to approximately 35mm and patterns have improved to date but at smaller improvement rate as they have gotten longer.

 

I have been hesitant to go further to 45mm as i suspect i would reach beyond the point of a positive return and start to see worsening patterns again.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Stonepark

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Which part?

 

If it us the 410 cones they were between 10mm and 12mm and not very well polished. I have increased in increments to approximately 35mm and patterns have improved to date but at smaller improvement rate as they have gotten longer.

 

I have been hesitant to go further to 45mm as i suspect i would reach beyond the point of a positive return and start to see worsening patterns again.

All of it. Is the stripping down of cartridges to their component parts simply for your own interest, or are you doing it as part of some study which will make up a paper? 

I simply can’t believe anyone can claim they missed a particular target because of this issue, if it is indeed an issue. 

[Stonepark]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

All of it. Is the stripping down of cartridges to their component parts simply for your own interest, or are you doing it as part of some study which will make up a paper? 

I simply can’t believe anyone can claim they missed a particular target because of this issue, if it is indeed an issue. 

This is my idea of fun.....😉

I won't use a cartridge on especially live game or even just clays without stripping 1 down and doing at least one pattern through a known barrel/choke combination.This has shown a number of issues with cartridges from no opc, too much pressure, soft/malformed shot , short/heavy pellet loadings, etc.

One of the worst was a 32g plastic no5 which would not with any gun that i own pattern beyond IC as pressure was too high but no sign of pressure welding however at 35 yards and full choke was topping out at 59% pattern but covering a 6ft square with fliers .

Similarly a very inexpensive popular branded clay cartridge in fibre was also very poor due to soft shot with lots of shot being strung (pressure welding and some balling ) but was still breaking clays well at normal ranges and it unlikely most people would have noticed.

Both the above examples do work for normal shooting under 40 yards (as do most other cartridges) which is what most of us do, but as we know when we are tempted to reach a bit, i like to know my gun/cartridge/choke combination can cope

 

 

 

 

[Scully]

Fair enough. I know my gun/cartridge/choke combination can cope too. 

[Gunman]

So am I right in assuming that the general opinion is that extended cones are a disadvantage ? 

 . 

 

 

[Old farrier]

Anyone considered that the nominal bores were laid down with paper case Cartriges so the wads of yesteryear were tight in the bore along with rto 

now plastic cases are the norm so maybe the bore should be a bit larger or the forcing cones a bit longer 

just a thought 

all the best 

of 

[Nightrider]

2 hours ago, Gunman said:

So am I right in assuming that the general opinion is that extended cones are a disadvantage ? 

 . 

 

 

That depends. They can work very well with plastic wad loads, and particularly with steel shot loads (which, as you know, have very thick walled plastic cup wads).  Extended Forcing cones are almost always found with over-bored bore sizes. The over-bored bore size helps the shot column to be slightly shorter (because the plastic wad shot cup expands to the larger bore size, effectively increasing shot cup capacity). This provides more opportunity for steel pellets, particularly large ones, to 'settle' into a slightly shorter shot column. This is ballistically advantageous and also (and much more importantly) helps to reduce the much greater pressure that steel shot pellets apply laterally, out onto the barrel bore.  This makes the steel shot passing through less stressful for the bore, especially the chokes; but so far as lead shot is concerned this is much less of an issue.

The problem with lengthened forcing cones is the increased diameter immediately after the gun's chamber where propellant gas pressure is still very high. Plastic wads can easily expand to seal the hot, expanding gas.  But Fibre wads are less able to expand. This can, and does, allow gas to get past the fibre wad. In doing so it, at best, disrupts the pattern which is then often less dense... and less evenly distributed. It can also lead to shot being 'fused' together resulting in shot pairs, triples etc and 'Balling' ... and this has other implications far beyond just weaker patterns...

Some guns, and some Fibre wads, perform less well than others in guns with extended Forcing cones. Only actual trials on a pattern plate will confirm which commbinations work better and less well.

[Dave at kelton]

On 02/10/2012 at 23:11, sitsinhedges said:

 

The thin plastic sealing disc is called an obturator and it replaces the overpowder card in a fibre wadded cartridge.

http://claygame.co.uk/Cat24Page11SmallBoreGasSeals.pdf

And therein is another problem, slightly off topic. We use fibre wads to be environmentally friendly and then still have bits of plastic lying around the countryside. I know because in picking up on a major sporting estate that only use fibre wads the obturators are lying around everywhere!

[figgy]

Pattern plates also only give a single dimension of the shot cloud.  If you watch a slow mo video of a clay being broken not all the pellets hit the clay in the string as the clay breaks apart shot goes through into fresh air. 

There are many variables to shotgun patterns, i still pattern my wildfowl carts with chokes i use at the range i am likely or want to shoot. only to see how wide the pattern is or if it donuts blowing a hole the middle.

Clay carts i don't bother pattering anymore if they break clays as good as ones i like i will use them, if not i change to ones i know and do like. Simples