Is it always right to shoot foxes

[Thunderbird]

I once heard a story that certain permissions don't want you shooting foxes because the hunt goes through.

 

As if I'd believe that...

[gixer1]

On an estate with a game shoot you can't afford to not shoot them - so on that particular bit of ground they are shot on sight - the good thing for the foxes is there are no shoots on 3 sides of that ground and so there is a healthy population that always replenishes the stock.

 

If I was on a golf course or something I would not shoot the foxes as they are a benefit in that situation.

 

I do not eat everything I shoot but I also do not enjoy the "killing" part - I enjoy the "shooting" part or the sport - magpies, crows etc are shot by me because there is a part of me that feels better knowing they kill indiscriminately so by shooting them I may be letting something else live that may not have done.

 

I am lucky enough to have fox, badger, deer etc in my garden and I would never dream of shooting any of them, although one particular time where I have found myself particularly annoyed was the fact that we had a pair of spotted woodpeckers in a tree close by, I found one dead and half chewed then a new days later the other in a similar place - I couldn't figure out what had happened and then I spotted a cat climbing the tree and looking in the area where the woodpeckers were - I have a healthy dislike for cats as I feel they are far worse than foxes.

 

if cats were as able and powerful as foxes I think we would not tolerate them on estates in the way that we do and I feel it is wrong that cats are afforded the protection they get as they are a pet that the owner is able to take zero responsibility for - if I see one in my garden I really do let the dogs out to chase it off as it angers me that if I let my 2 labs in the owners garden to defecate and dig and kill things would they be happy?

 

Foxes will hopefully never disappear and I love observing them and I will shoot them but I don't agree with the opinions of some that the only good one is a dead one - I reserve that for the felines.

 

Regards,

Gixer

[foggy011983]

Gixer to be honest your wording says exactly how i feel.

 

Well worded.

 

Steve

[gixer1]

One odd thing I do notice is that for some odd reason when on the ground I have the stalking on - if I see a fox I always follow it in the scope and put the crosshairs on it but never shoot them :blink:

[foggy011983]

One odd thing I do notice is that for some odd reason when on the ground I have the stalking on - if I see a fox I always follow it in the scope and put the crosshairs on it but never shoot them :blink:

 

Lol i know what you mean. i like sqeaking it in and see how close you can get it.

 

I put a video of it on Facebook and some friends who don't shoot where amazed i could sqeak a fox in and to be honest a few have never seen one apart from on tv.

[thepasty]

By choice I dont shoot them but if a landowner that has given permission to shoot asks me to sort one out for him then thats part of the deal and I would oblige.

 

Cant say I'd enjoy doing it tho.

[Frenchieboy]

Do fox have any naural predators besides humans?

Yes, exploding quarries! As per this thread :

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/236712-unlucky-fox/

[Frenchieboy]

I wouldnt shoot one if it was in the crosshairs and it started serenading me by singing anything by Greenday whilst doing a handstand and smoking a particulary large hotdog as though its was the finest cuban thigh rolled seeeeeeeeegar.No sireeeeeee.However,as soon as i got bored of the routine i would take a breath,hold,squeeze that lethal lickle blade getting sexily caressed by moi trigger finger and roll him over.Infact,nobody,and i mean nobody should cover anything by Greenday so i wouldnt even wait till im bored.In fact,im bored now.

Davey old mate, what the hell have you been smoking?

[silver pigeon 3]

where the land owner allows, every time. On my largest permission i have to leave them alone as they still run the hunt through, but only for scent trails obviously

 

They are vermin of the highest order and ask 99% of people that keep chickens/ducks or lambs and they will explain the reasons why they need controlling.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On two of the farms that I am lucky enough to have permission upon I am not allowed to shoot foxes as the farmers feel they keep the rabbit population down.

 

Mind you he isn't keen on me shooting too many rabbits as he likes to use his .22" on them. But on EVERY other farm, I shoot the fox as long as it's a safe shot.

[GRamsay]

Foxes should be controlled, because it is essential for rare ground nesting birds. Threatened species cannot cope with predation like thriving species can.

They should also be controlled if they pose a threat to game birds and livestock. Some may not have any need to control them, but many others do.

 

But the aim is control, not eradication. Foxes also take other pests such as rats and rabbits, so can be beneficial to land managers in the right numbers. And they are part of the British fauna and have a place in the countryside.

 

I've spent a lot of time in the countryside near where I live and have only ever seen a fox once. I haven't seen them at all on the farm where I shoot, and my dad hasn't seen any for a number of years. We know they're there because we have occasionally seen tracks and what appear to be fox droppings, but we don't seem to be overun with them at all.

 

However, I am given to understand that a sickly looking one turned up a few years ago out of nowhere, and then disappeared.

That was spot on.

[anser2]

I see no problem with shooting foxes when game\pigeon shooting as long as its safe , the keeper\landowner is ok with it and you have the right gun\shell to kill cleanly.

 

The fox has every right to be in the countryside , its a natural British animal , as long as its numbers are held in check.

Edited February 9, 2013 by anser2

[al4x]

The simple thing is we will never wipe out foxes they thrive in the strangest of places, it's the unseen damage they do even on arable land. The most open of our ground has a grey partridge population and I take great delight in every fox I shoot that is working that area. I'm on a hare day today and that's infinitely more controversial but its a well managed estate and they are doing a bit too well so it's a sustainable harvest and certainly the 4 I had on the first drive very sporting

[955i]

If no one shot foxs the country side would change

 

This is blatantly not true!!

 

There is a value in ecological science called the K value. This is the carrying capacity for habitats to support various species and it applies to ALL habitats.

 

Nature finds a natural balance and in fact, shooting foxes is likely to increase numbers as you are removing animals from areas so other ones step up their breeding to fill the gap and I wouldn't be surprised to find that foxes in heavily shot areas produce larger litters than those in unshot areas.

 

An area will only support a certain number of large carnivores before food supply cannot realistically support more and they will start to die off through natural causes (disease, starvation etc).

 

We need to get away from the idea that the countryside as we know it is how things are supposed to look, it isn't.

 

Modern farming practices have removed huge amounts of hedgerows, dry stone walls, ponds etc all to make it easier to farm and removing habitat for a huge range of species.

 

The modern countryside, and particularly pasture land, is basically a green desert. Even the remaining hedgerows are intensively managed reducing their suitability for passerine bird species.

 

In effect, we have taken the foxes natural hunting grounds from them and then thrown up our hands in horror if they take a chicken/pheasant or are lucky enough to still find somewhere suitable to take ground nesting birds.

 

If we really want to find the species responsible for the decline in ground nesting birds, along with the majority of other species in the country, then you don't need to go any further that the mirror in your hallway!!

Edited February 9, 2013 by 955i

[Scully]

We shoot them at every opportunity because that is what the landowners want.

Corvids do more damage to new-born lambs than foxes,but most land around here contain birds and is shot over,so foxes are given little respite I'm afraid.The usual pre-shoot instructions invariably contain the sentence 'no ground game unless it's a safe fox'.

Sheep farmer? Paying £1000 per day for driven? You posted in the wrong thread.......it's the 'Countryfile Now' one you want!

[ollie]

I shoot them at every opportunity (obviously safety dependant). Fair enough if people don't like shooting them, but for the people who say you only shoot them if they are causing damage; well you will find that when you actually go to find Mr Foxy, he might be difficult to get. Why wait until he does damage? Like someone said, there are never gonna become endangered, in fact, there population is probably increasing.

[kent]

I shoot them at every opportunity (obviously safety dependant). Fair enough if people don't like shooting them, but for the people who say you only shoot them if they are causing damage; well you will find that when you actually go to find Mr Foxy, he might be difficult to get. Why wait until he does damage? Like someone said, there are never gonna become endangered, in fact, there population is probably increasing.

 

A pest is a pest because of were it is not what it is. In certain areas the fox should be given no quarter yet in others it might be advantageous to actively encourage them. I should seriously like to know what sort of damage a fox might do to a commercial crop of carrots say? against the good it might do by keeping rodents and rabbits in check some? Pigeons are said to be the biggest agricultural pest of our day - yet here on the moors it would be morally wrong and likely against the general licence for me to shoot the few that come to roost and raise their young in the coniferous woodland

[scotslad]

From now till August-sept time the fox willl/can do a lot of damage to ground nesting birds so if u have a game and esp wild game u should be as hard as possible on them. U will NEVER kil them out if the old victorian keepers couldnae kill them out we have no chance.

 

But some old school keepers would also say if ur not having a problem esp with livestock leave the ones u've got as they will be territoral and possibly keeping others of ur ground, better the devil u know type thiing. They always say shoot a fox and 2 come to the funeral.

 

995 the K value may work in some distant untouched rain forrest but do u honestly think that predators don't have an influence on there prey numbers. I'm sure ur familar with Biomass/Population triangles i'd say they are already very top heavy with corvids,BOP, cats, badgers, foxes mustelids when there top heavy they are not sustainable.

 

Ur living in cloud cockoo land if u think foxes or any other top end predator will find a balance in the UK, the UK is not natural enough to much extra food roadkill for there ever to be a balance. Or the only balance they find wil be when there is no ground nesting birds left and they have to target livestock. There are many areas near to me that no longer have any lapwings, curlews, oyster catchers, yet only 25 year ago they had the lot plus more anf NO hedges ripped up, NO ponds filled in, NO change in agri practice. Only change is no longer a keeper on the land.

 

This myth of modern farming ripping up miles of hedges may be true down south in the 70's or early 80's but in SW scotland (and probably most of scotland) there hasn't been massive changes or not since the 80's yet many farmland birds are still declining massively probably at a faster rate than ever. Most farmers are now planting hedges, digging ponds, installing bettles banks and game covers/brood rearing covers, the countryside habitat is improving, and the shooting community is the driving force behind it(probably many people on here). Even some nature reserves are killing foxes but keeping it quiet. The sooner so called/alleged scientist leave there agenda's/bunny hugging beliefs behind and realise its predators thats killing UK wildlife the better

 

I suggest u have a good look on the GWCT website and see some off the studies/research they have carried out, esp related to predatation, otterburn or allerton projects. Habitat alone is not enough infact by improving habitat and not controlling predators ur actually making the situation worse and have created a 1 stop feeding ground for vermin concentraing more birds in a smaller area

 

If u don't like shooting foxes fair enough but to use bad science to defend it is just nonsense. i suggest it is u that has a look in the mirror.

While ur looking at research and if u still believe predators don't impact on there prey look at the 1st JRG Langholm project where Hen Harriers ate every living thing on the moor before dieing or leaving as no food left. Went from 4 breeding pair, stable for years, to 28 bp in under 10 years and back down to 2 pair which struggled to breed as so little food left on the hill.

 

Sorry for rant but bad enough when the rspb peddles the fairy tale world they think we live in without it being on here

[Reece]

This is blatantly not true!!

 

There is a value in ecological science called the K value. This is the carrying capacity for habitats to support various species and it applies to ALL habitats.

 

Nature finds a natural balance and in fact, shooting foxes is likely to increase numbers as you are removing animals from areas so other ones step up their breeding to fill the gap and I wouldn't be surprised to find that foxes in heavily shot areas produce larger litters than those in unshot areas.

 

An area will only support a certain number of large carnivores before food supply cannot realistically support more and they will start to die off through natural causes (disease, starvation etc).

 

We need to get away from the idea that the countryside as we know it is how things are supposed to look, it isn't.

 

Modern farming practices have removed huge amounts of hedgerows, dry stone walls, ponds etc all to make it easier to farm and removing habitat for a huge range of species.

 

The modern countryside, and particularly pasture land, is basically a green desert. Even the remaining hedgerows are intensively managed reducing their suitability for passerine bird species.

 

In effect, we have taken the foxes natural hunting grounds from them and then thrown up our hands in horror if they take a chicken/pheasant or are lucky enough to still find somewhere suitable to take ground nesting birds.

 

If we really want to find the species responsible for the decline in ground nesting birds, along with the majority of other species in the country, then you don't need to go any further that the mirror in your hallway!!

 

The population will only increase again if you stop the cull. Of course if you cull and then stop, the foxes will return quickly. Culls don't involve shooting a few and then forgetting about it.

 

Long term, modern farming (and other changes to other habitats) are a problem. But threatened species cannot cope with predation as well as a resilient population can - with threatened ones, every one is precious. That's why conservation organisations, including the RSPB, control predators.

 

The RSPB did an experiment at Abernethy forest in the 1990s. They ceased predator control for a while. Capercaillie numbers fell, so they reinstated predator control.

 

And look at the GWCT's management factsheets on conserving grey partridges. Estates which use the advice in these factsheets have seen grey partridge populations thrive again, despite a decline nationally (not sure if this decline has stopped yet). These guidelines include predator control during the breeding season.

[955i]

Ur living in cloud cockoo land if u think foxes or any other top end predator will find a balance in the UK, the UK is not natural enough to much extra food roadkill for there ever to be a balance.

To be fair, this was my point. The K principle is sound science, but it relies on a natural (or at least semi-natural) system to work.

As you rightly say, this no longer exists in the UK and it is largely in part to what you term the myth of changes in farming practice (mostly put in place after the war) along with increased population levels.

I am not knocking the farmers, it makes good economic sense to make fields bigger, they are easier to work and can provide a higher ground to crop ratio, but no predator population can increase exponentially without a trigger and whether by design (people feeding foxes in their gardens, increase in people keeping fowl etc) or as a secondary factor (farming methods, increase in keeping of game birds etc) it is impossible to deny that the human influence on these things is not a major factor.

If I may, I will draw on experience from my work to illustrate.

Great crested newts are not protected because they are in general decline, it is because of loss of suitable waterbodies due to development and infill.

Bats are not protected because of general decline, it is because of unregulated barn conversions etc prior to legislation leading to massive loss of suitable roosts (and also incidentally decline of insect populations due to garden and agricultural pesticide use).

A case in point for nesting birds is a site I have surveyed annually for a number of years that had a healthy skylark population. The site was originally semi-improved grassland but was sold and the new owner changed the use to pasture for cattle and within two years the skylarks were practically non-existant. This was not because of predation, it was simply because the grazing changed the habitat and the cattle had the unfortunate tendency to tread on nests.

I never denied that predators are increasing in this country and that in some areas control is neccessary, but you have to look at the reason why this is happening and in most cases it points back to the effect that the human population is having both in towns and in the countryside.

[keg]

I believe their only predator was the Wolf. Like most things in the countryside, it needs managing.

Edited February 10, 2013 by keg

[scotslad]

Well there is very few truely natural areas of UK left if any and the few that are possibly above tree line in highland scot, and is spoiled by peolple walking over it disturbing all the birds/animals that really want left in peace.

 

But if most off the farming changes happened in 40's and 50's why is it that it was only really from the 80's onwards that there has been a massive drop in bird numbers off all types (farmland, garden, ground nesting even upland) apart from wot i would call vermin which are at record numbers, same with badgers

I take it the above is a typo about GCN and Bats not being protected, as they are, i have had to climb trees stuffing potential bat holes with material before i felled/limbed them and put up miles of newt fencing along pipeline sites

Fair play with ur skylarks but that is 1 field, in my area fields are actually going back the way and getting more and more rashes growing with the wet weather.

 

With my day job i cover a massive area of farmland and out of that whole area there is only 1 valley i go too that i would guarantee to see plover,curlew,redshank,oyster, etc and there all fledging good sized broods, this farmland is no different to thousands off acres of other farmalnd i work on except it has a very good keeper and borders grouse moors which also have very good keepers. Yet 20-25 years ago it was unusual not to see these birds every where. Also when i travel down early in the morn to pick up on a moor in N Yorks i's a total joy to travel throu the valleys and see all the wild broods off birds in the roadside fields, again all due to keepering/vermin control

 

 

A Goldie will take them, dunno if been documented in the wild but some off the english hound packs fly Goldies to take a flushed fox.

Seen a nature programme once, where the mongolians catch young eagles and train them to fly on there breed of fox for meat and the pelt

Edited February 10, 2013 by scotslad

[955i]

I take it the above is a typo about GCN and Bats not being protected, as they are, i have had to climb trees stuffing potential bat holes with material before i felled/limbed them and put up miles of newt fencing along pipeline sites

 

Not a typo, was stating that they are not protected because of a decline through natural causes, but the protection is neccessary because of human activity, just read a bit wrong.

Edited February 10, 2013 by 955i

[ollie]

A pest is a pest because of were it is not what it is. In certain areas the fox should be given no quarter yet in others it might be advantageous to actively encourage them. I should seriously like to know what sort of damage a fox might do to a commercial crop of carrots say? against the good it might do by keeping rodents and rabbits in check some? Pigeons are said to be the biggest agricultural pest of our day - yet here on the moors it would be morally wrong and likely against the general licence for me to shoot the few that come to roost and raise their young in the coniferous woodland

 

I respect your opinion and as I'm sure you are aware a fox can travel a big area at night in search of food. Therefore, a fox may be seen in an area where it is not causing problems (i.e. your carrot crop) but it could also be travelling to an area that it is causing major problems. Also, because there may be no sheep farms/game shoots in an area doesn't mean a fox is not causing problems to ground nesting birds and chicken farmers etc.

 

Like I said previously, I have no problems with people not shooting foxes, but they do need to be controlled.

[barraboy]

if cats...... I feel it is wrong that cats are afforded the protection they get as they are a pet that the owner is able to take zero responsibility for - if I see one in my garden I really do let the dogs out to chase it off as it angers me that if I let my 2 labs in the owners garden to defecate and dig and kill things would they be happy?

 

couldnt agree more.

 

we shoot hill farms in the lakes, all foxes shot on sight the farmers expect it. if we didnt they'd just call somebody else in who would. or locate them and call the terrier lads in.