Training pre-FAC should be mandatory

[dadioles]

Again I read a thread posted by someone who does not know how to zero a rifle, another about cleaning a rifle, another about trajectory.... etc. etc.

Yes, it is good to ask.

Forums on the internet are useful sources of information so please, never be afraid to ask.

If in doubt, ask. It does not matter how stupid the question, ask and people will try to help.

BUT........

Is it right that someone should apply for, and receive, a firearms certificate and be allowed to purchase one or more rifles, moderators and ammunition in order to shoot live animals when they clearly have no real understanding of how to maintain, setup or safely use a deadly weapon, or in some cases cannot be bothered to learn (and they will be the ones who don't even ask).

 

A recent thread asks about zeroing a .22lr

Some of the replies from (apparently) experienced gun owners are quite disturbing, ignorance piled upon ignorance.

Shooting a .22lr is about as cheap, basic and simple as it gets and yet because of its very loopy trajectory and variations between ammo and rifle you have to spend time punching paper to get it right. A learned skill that requires time and effort.

 

I hate the thought of more bureaucracy, higher fees, more delays, but all too often some shooters in these public forums (are they really shooters or just fantasists?) seem to display a contempt for wildlife and may wound rather than kill because they are shooting beyond their proven ability. More fodder for the anti's.

 

The messy, often ill-informed and remarkably unprofessional (sometimes just plain wrong) application of regulations by the police does nothing to help.

 

Just taking the .22lr as an example, it would be helpful to have a step by step definitive guide to how to setup, zero and maintain the gun. No messing around, no ifs and buts, nothing ambitious just something to get people started shooting accurately, safely and at sensible distances.

 

One question for the moderators of these forums... (a generally thankless task that you do brilliantly), is there any way of flagging up members who are genuine licensed shooters as opposed to the dreamers and fantasists who can often be so misleading and dangerous? Maybe this is impractical. I guess I am proposing two levels of membership, qualified and unqualified, possibly unworkable.

 

Shooters are probably mostly self taught or at best learn from a mate. I guess most of us started with air rifles and progressed from there. Some shooters just want to get out and shoot wildlife and don't much care about anything else (sadly). Others of us are a bit more geeky and spend more time learning and tweaking.

There should at least be a basic standard that we all have to reach before being let loose to blast away at living creatures.

Is the blind leading the blind the right way to go in firearms training?

[Paul223]

Again I read a thread posted by someone who does not know how to zero a rifle, another about cleaning a rifle, another about trajectory.... etc. etc.

Yes, it is good to ask.

Forums on the internet are useful sources of information so please, never be afraid to ask.

If in doubt, ask. It does not matter how stupid the question, ask and people will try to help.

BUT........

Is it right that someone should apply for, and receive, a firearms certificate and be allowed to purchase one or more rifles, moderators and ammunition in order to shoot live animals when they clearly have no real understanding of how to maintain, setup or safely use a deadly weapon, or in some cases cannot be bothered to learn (and they will be the ones who don't even ask).

 

A recent thread asks about zeroing a .22lr

Some of the replies from (apparently) experienced gun owners are quite disturbing, ignorance piled upon ignorance.

Shooting a .22lr is about as cheap, basic and simple as it gets and yet because of its very loopy trajectory and variations between ammo and rifle you have to spend time punching paper to get it right. A learned skill that requires time and effort.

 

I hate the thought of more bureaucracy, higher fees, more delays, but all too often some shooters in these public forums (are they really shooters or just fantasists?) seem to display a contempt for wildlife and may wound rather than kill because they are shooting beyond their proven ability. More fodder for the anti's.

 

The messy, often ill-informed and remarkably unprofessional (sometimes just plain wrong) application of regulations by the police does nothing to help.

 

Just taking the .22lr as an example, it would be helpful to have a step by step definitive guide to how to setup, zero and maintain the gun. No messing around, no ifs and buts, nothing ambitious just something to get people started shooting accurately, safely and at sensible distances.

 

One question for the moderators of these forums... (a generally thankless task that you do brilliantly), is there any way of flagging up members who are genuine licensed shooters as opposed to the dreamers and fantasists who can often be so misleading and dangerous? Maybe this is impractical. I guess I am proposing two levels of membership, qualified and unqualified, possibly unworkable.

 

Shooters are probably mostly self taught or at best learn from a mate. I guess most of us started with air rifles and progressed from there. Some shooters just want to get out and shoot wildlife and don't much care about anything else (sadly). Others of us are a bit more geeky and spend more time learning and tweaking.

There should at least be a basic standard that we all have to reach before being let loose to blast away at living creatures.

Is the blind leading the blind the right way to go in firearms training?

i look forward to reading your step by step guide later, and the bun fight which will no doubt ensue

[deputy dog]

Flask of Tea and biscuits at the ready. :ninja:

 

 

DD

[HDAV]

Do .22LR not come with manuals explaining how to strip and clean them?

 

Training is a contentious issue I would like to see more available but uptake will be low, costs high and having done the training doesn't mean you'll apply it or be any safer....

 

I am sure the day of RSC1 ( rabbit shooting certificate 1) being a requirement to get a .22lr for vermin but let's not speed it up!

[DaveK]

Flask of Tea and biscuits at the ready. :ninja:

 

 

DD

Tin hat, deck chair, crate of Stella

[Dekers]

The OP makes more than fair points in some respects, but the level and detail and training and accrediting and policing etc would be a nightmare!

[Kes]

Are we not here playing into the hands of the "mentor for everything and anything" brigade?

How many people are killed, injured or even frightened by 'novice' rifle shooters, how many accidents occur and what 'victims' are there ?

 

That said, when I first had a centrefire I was a bit in awe of it and therefore extremely cautious about backstops etc. - no bad thing.

 

The solution might be a book, it might be a restriction but, in the end, its down to the person who shoots to be cautious, respectful of others, of wildlife in general and quarry in particular. I learnt this from an older shooter (Dad), by being concerned myself to be ultra safe and because I wanted to kill cleanly. The right sort of shooter wants to know these things but will not risk others in the process of 'maturing' as a rifle shooter.

Perhaps the shooting organisations could produce something simple and cautionary which is free to each shooter who receives their first FAC. Such a document could quote ballistics resources, basic rules, calibre trajectories and be produced in something like the manner of 'Mr Crabtree' The production of the document could involve all shooting groups and the police and save everyone the hassle of further restrictions when none are perhaps needed? Adverts could fund it.

There was once a great book produced by a major gun manufacturer and BASC on firearms law - my last one is now out of date but paasing an up to date version of that to newbies would be no bad thing.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Kes

[Gimlet]

In principle I agree. In practise.....well.. Its the mandatory bit that causes problems. Once something is a legal requirement supplying it becomes a box ticking exercise. Before you know where you are you've created a training industry churning out "qualified" shooters on a production line for profit.

If public liability insurance was mandatory maybe providers would insist on a gun safety qualification. But then again they don't now which makes me wonder how many people have ever claimed on their policy or whether these policies are worth the paper they are written on.

I quite like Kes's idea of a complimentary information pack provided to all first time ticket holders by shooting associations, but I suspect it would take complusory membership with insurance cover to get them to do it. But its that compulsory bit again. It has a bad smell about it and can lead to all sorts of unforseen consequences.

Ultimately, I think its mentoring that will become mandatory on new licenses. We moan about it but its probably the only way for shooting to be monitored by those best qualified to do it, which is experienced shooters themselves.

[Dekers]

To shoot on any Military range (inc Bisley) you now need a Shooter Certification Card. It doesn't matter if you are 80, a Lifelong NRA member, have shot since you were a child and you are a World Champion, you need the card. To get it you currently have to complete a 99 page A4 size, NRA Probationary Training Course and a Written Assessment. Now, this is for the relatively controlled/safe environment of a Range.

 

 

What on earth sort of manual/test would be required to let someone walk round a field letting off shots as they saw fit?

[telf]

as was said everybody probably started off with air guns,but do the same rules not apply to air guns and fire arms,yes firearms are obviously deadly but so is an air gun in the right or wrong hands,surely if you grew up with air guns you must surely know the basics of shooting,maintenance,zeroing etc.

Everybody has got to start somewhere and with asking questions,reading up on the subject and common sense then you must have more than a resonable idea what your doing.

I sometimes think the question put on here and other forums arent put over crrectly as in the person asking the quetion knows what there on about but like myself dont put it over correctly at the time

i hope all that makes sense,just my view

[dadioles]

All good replies. I have already equipped myself with tin hat and kevlar vest!

Of course those who most need help will not want it and those who seek it are the sensible ones - such is life....

A long time ago I suggested that a handbook should be provided free to new shooters with their fac but of course it won't happen.

Probably the most realistic avenue is for BASC to add a free to download series of guides to their web site.

The information is all out there but it tends to get obscured by all the rubbish.

Embarrassingly some time ago I posted links to a guide called "How to oppose shooting" produced by "animal aid" as this contained all sorts of useful facts about the law as it applies to us. Ok, it was produced by "antis" but largely well written, clear and factual. Why is there not something so well produced by the pro-shooting lobby.

We need a series of "how to..." guides.

Our shooting forums where people seek advice are probably the currently most useful but there is an awful lot of misinformation put about here.

Maybe its time to get cracking at the word-processor.

[Gordon R]

One question for the moderators of these forums... (a generally thankless task that you do brilliantly), is there any way of flagging up members who are genuine licensed shooters as opposed to the dreamers and fantasists who can often be so misleading and dangerous? Maybe this is impractical. I guess I am proposing two levels of membership, qualified and unqualified, possibly unworkable.

 

It does not matter how stupid the question

 

The messy, often ill-informed and remarkably unprofessional (sometimes just plain wrong) application of regulations by the police does nothing to help.

 

Nothing judgemental about these posts at all. :lol:

[CharlieT]

I suppose the easiest and safest solution to the OP's perceived threat that users of firearms pose to public safety would be to ban the use of sporting firearms.

 

Perhaps it would be sensible that only people employed in farming and forestry, who could demonstrate a need, should be licensed.

 

After all, why should someone who fancies shooting as a hobby be granted a FAC to own a rifle, be it that he has demonstrated to the police that he poses no threat to public safety, is sensible enough to seek help from his peers as to setting up his rifle or asks which is the best way to clean it and horror of horrors, has the gumption to wish to learn and engage with fellow shooters.

 

No, ban him from ownership I say. Hobby shooting has no place in todays modern, caring society, where every facet of our lives should be controlled and everything we do requires a piece of paper saying we are competent. I do not believe that any amount of training on the best way to zero a scope or clean a rifle will ensure that the public are safe from these hobby shooters who creep around the countryside with these dangerous weapons.

 

Has not the time come to lobby BASC to have rifle ownership for sporting purposes banned, to ensure we have a safer countryside for ourselves, our children and future generations.

[Blackbart]

Are we not a way down the road to " mandatory " tests with the DSC ?

[Amazed]

Is this the health and safety council ?

[dadioles]

I suppose the easiest and safest solution to the OP's perceived threat that users of firearms pose to public safety would be to ban the use of sporting firearms.

Where did I say that? or even imply it? My post was about the lack of knowledge about shooting basics such as how to zero a gun.

Shooting is to be encouraged, the more the better but if you are going to own a firearm you should understand things like bullet drop and know that just because a computer program says that your bullet will drop 2" at 80 yards it does not mean that your bullet in your gun will do the same.

 

Perhaps it would be sensible that only people employed in farming and forestry, who could demonstrate a need, should be licensed.

That would be awful but unless "hobby" shooters - let's make no mistake, that is what most of us are!! get their act together and put a bit more effort into being as professional about our shooting as possible then your scenario will come true.

Hand guns are already banned - illogical and in my view quite wrong. Don't forget - we already have to "have a need" to be licensed.

 

After all, why should someone who fancies shooting as a hobby be granted a FAC to own a rifle, be it that he has demonstrated to the police that he poses no threat to public safety, is sensible enough to seek help from his peers as to setting up his rifle or asks which is the best way to clean it and horror of horrors, has the gumption to wish to learn and engage with fellow shooters.

Unfortunately not everyone is that responsible. Maybe you should know how to use a gun before you are given one. That is not the case at the moment.

 

No, ban him from ownership I say.

Why? Just make sure that it is skilled and knowledgeable ownership.

 

Hobby shooting has no place in todays modern, caring society,

Yes it does, and so does riding, boxing, mountaineering.....

 

where every facet of our lives should be controlled and everything we do requires a piece of paper saying we are competent.

Isn't that awful, and it has been brought down upon us because of the actions of the irresponsible minority - and there are plenty of those in our shooting community.

 

I do not believe that any amount of training on the best way to zero a scope or clean a rifle will ensure that the public are safe from these hobby shooters who creep around the countryside with these dangerous weapons.

Ok, I will rise to that one as well (smile).. You are right, but I do not creep.

 

Has not the time come to lobby BASC to have rifle ownership for sporting purposes banned, to ensure we have a safer countryside for ourselves, our children and future generations.

Sadly that exactly what is happening, but it is not BASC the anti's lobby, it is the politicians both here and in Europe that will end our sport. Unless we can get public opinion on our side we shall lose. It has nothing to do with facts but unreasoned emotion. I have already mentioned handguns.

Now you can put your tongue firmly back in your cheek where it belongs..... Love and kisses......

[Redgum]

There is nothing wrong with a bit of mandatory training, maybe a simple written test and maybe a half day at a local range, if the license fee is going to be banged up then maybe it could be absorbed into that. The DMQ system is a good thing, maybe scorned by those that are in fear of failure but teaches some very basic stuff on law and safety to some, even a bit of an eye opener for the so say ' experiece sporting shooter '.

[jamiedenny]

oh dear

[bicykillgaz]

Don't all scopes come with instructions on how to zero them.

 

maybe make it compulsory to complete 1 year membership at a rifle club to gain knowledge on the basics the OP mentioned before getting fac for rimfire and a further year practical use of rimfires before you can go for centerfire.

[Blunderbuss]

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Shooting will be killed off by bureaucracy and overpriced courses before much longer if this happens. Look across to Holland to see your future. Dutch parliament about to vote on a complete end to sporting shooting. It is likely to get through too because there are too few shooters to be heard - trimmed to an insignificant and voiceless rump over the years by exactly the measures the OP is proposing.

 

I despair of my fellow shooters sometimes, a bigger threat to shooting than LACS, PETA and GCN combined :(

[Scully]

If there was an issue regarding the inexpereinced aquiring firearms and their subsequent use,which training would address,then perhaps I may agree with some sort of rudimentary training,but the authorities don't currently appear to regard it as an issue,and if they thought it were I doubt they would miss an opportunity to impede.Mentoring(rightly or wrongly) is increasingly playing a part in the prerequisite for FAC, and as much as I think the process is nothing more than an **** covering exercise from the point of view of licensing and totally relies on the honesty of mentor/mentoree(?) it is essentially free to all concerned.

[kent]

I suppose the easiest and safest solution to the OP's perceived threat that users of firearms pose to public safety would be to ban the use of sporting firearms.

 

Perhaps it would be sensible that only people employed in farming and forestry, who could demonstrate a need, should be licensed.

 

After all, why should someone who fancies shooting as a hobby be granted a FAC to own a rifle, be it that he has demonstrated to the police that he poses no threat to public safety, is sensible enough to seek help from his peers as to setting up his rifle or asks which is the best way to clean it and horror of horrors, has the gumption to wish to learn and engage with fellow shooters.

 

No, ban him from ownership I say. Hobby shooting has no place in todays modern, caring society, where every facet of our lives should be controlled and everything we do requires a piece of paper saying we are competent. I do not believe that any amount of training on the best way to zero a scope or clean a rifle will ensure that the public are safe from these hobby shooters who creep around the countryside with these dangerous weapons.

 

Has not the time come to lobby BASC to have rifle ownership for sporting purposes banned, to ensure we have a safer countryside for ourselves, our children and future generations.

Farmers are among the most dangerous user groups- fact!

[kent]

In principle a sound idea but who says who gets to instruct, I have seen some total numpties claiming to know more than they do even believing it themselves. Military skill at arms trainers and yes I do have experience having two close mates who have shot with me only know that which is pertaining to what is used in combat, in combat situations by squadies

[1066]

The specter of compulsary shooting tests have been around since the 1970's that I can remember and must be resisted at all costs. That's not to say the OP doesn't have a valid point, I too am often stunned by some of the questions (and answers) on various shooting forums.

 

The point has been made that many of us started off with airguns in our youth, served our apprenticeship you might say, and steadily progressed from there - often joining the local smallbore club (every town had one) and really learning how to shoot in a disciplined way or possibly out beating at the weekend to earn a few shillings. The point is, shooting was a wholesome leasure activity with many thousands of regular participants, scouts, schools etc. etc. This is not the case today, shooting has been demonised, magazines kept under the counter and we constantly get a hammering in the press and other media.

 

Someone new coming into shooting now may well never even have held a rifle before, let alone shot one. They may well think that a .22 rf will kill a fox at a mile or that tiny little cartridge is ok for plinking in the garden - The only thing they know is that a .357 magnum will shoot through a car engine block and a bullet always sends out a shower of sparks when it hits something.

 

I really don't have any answers - but there is certainly a problem there to be addressed.

[team tractor]

Only the other day I was moaned at for asking what brand of ammo people were using in a cz hmr and this was to save my money and buy decent from the beginning .

I've only just had my first ticket but shot ft for 15 years and clay for 11 years I've also spent loads of time with mates using .223 308 hmr etc so feel I'm more than capable plus my feo was more than happy .

I know some lads with fac that don't even know how a scope works or different height mounts

 

I've spent the past 2 days practicing from 25yrds to mostly 70-120yrds and even 240yards on a plaster board to which I know I will never use before anyone moans but I was curious . I managed 4" groups about 12" low but struggled to see thanks to the heat rising off the field .

 

 

My point is not all newbies are amateurs and I've seen some aweful experienced shots taking risks