Training pre-FAC should be mandatory

[Thunderbird]

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Shooting will be killed off by bureaucracy and overpriced courses before much longer if this happens. Look across to Holland to see your future. Dutch parliament about to vote on a complete end to sporting shooting. It is likely to get through too because there are too few shooters to be heard - trimmed to an insignificant and voiceless rump over the years by exactly the measures the OP is proposing.

 

I despair of my fellow shooters sometimes, a bigger threat to shooting than LACS, PETA and GCN combined :(

 

What he said. Divided, we fall. Prince Philip won't be around for ever.

 

Also, this business of 'real' shooters, and somehow stratifying them on the forum. Impossible. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I reckon, for the most part, regular contributors (apart from the obvious dolts) to PW either shoot quarry, clays or both, and either currently shoot, or have shot in the past. In any event they are interested enough in the subject to come on and discuss the issues. Often when topics descend to mud-slinging an element of such slinging is the 'do you even shoot?' challenge. Easy challenge to issue, especially when you are the one who gets it in first.

 

Also, as to training (and learning) properly, no shooter in their right mind would be against the principle of those with guns being able to use and maintain them safely, but it's the box-ticking bureaucratic nightmare of any such proposal's implementation that should have us all running screaming for the hills.

 

When I applied for my FAC I had held a SGC for several years and provided numerous written references but the FEO still tried to insist on a mentoring condition for the rimfire calibres (including 22LR) I was applying for as well as the CF calibre. Definitely an ****-covering exercise and one I very easily challenged and they then backed down on the whole mentoring idea and issued the licence with no mentoring conditions (for the CF either) and also without the draconian restrictions on ammunition he was also threatening me with.

 

The reason I mention all this is the fact that things that an FEO dreams up can either be accepted or challenged. If mentoring becomes the law (and let's face it - as someone has said - it's a load of balls anyway and will in 99% of cases be letters written by mates) such challenges won't be possible.

[Catweazle]

Can anyone tell me how many people are actually injured by these novice shooters ? The only one I can think of is the chap who shot his own foot with HMR.

[Thunderbird]

Good point, also, the most dangerous acts I have ever seen with guns have been at clay shoots and the main culprit I know of used to be a CPSA instructor and still wears a vest with that badge on. He's been shooting 50 years they say. Obviously knows it all and doesn't need to mind about safety any more.

[wymberley]

I despair of my fellow shooters sometimes, a bigger threat to shooting than LACS, PETA and GCN combined :(

It could be successfully argued that the only greater threat is internet forums.

[DIVERD]

A lot being discussed here makes sense. I have been shooting for years but i am doing my DSC this month as i think in time it will be more difficult to get good shooting without it. Forums are great but i often wonder if some posts are made by 12 year olds with no experience - other than reading dads shooting times. I have given and received advice, and also argued with folks that are not only wrong, but giving dangerous advice. I am sure also that they believed they were right.

 

Unfortunately we tend to think that someone with lots of posts is some form of expert, however adding a yes or +1 to a thread adds to your number without actually adding anything, and creates a perception of knowledge. Air rifles tend to be the worst for myths and nonsense. I used to work in a RFD and heard some seriously dangerous practices. We had an open day at a range every month or so and normally had a zeroing and set up session, and also some rf and cf rifles being used, and found that this really gave a healthy respect.

 

We thankfully have few accidents, and tend to be a careful lot. A fac is a privilege and is so easily lost i think we protect this more than say some air rifle shooters would, where a rifle can be bought often on a whim with almost no checks. I am a huge air rifle fan, but really worry about posts discussing more power. Power is so easy, but involves having land, a clean background and filling in a few forms. I wonder why keen shooters who can meet these really basic standards dont - unless that have legal reasons why a FAC would be refused.

[Blunderbuss]

Power is so easy, but involves having land, a clean background and filling in a few forms. I wonder why keen shooters who can meet these really basic standards dont - unless that have legal reasons why a FAC would be refused.

 

I think it's because of the expense and hassle (perceived or real) rather than because they have something to hide. Why should someone who just wants to safely shoot tin cans in their back garden half a dozen times a year have to jump the through all the expense and legal/bureaucratic hoops we firearms owners do? Air rifles are the life blood of our sport and provide an accessible gateway in to it, its how most of us discovered shooting and earned our spurs. They create a pool of neophyte shooters from which a significant minority will decide to take it further and apply for SGC or FAC.

 

That is why I shudder every time someone proposes licensing air rifles. Yes it might dissuade a few idiots, but they will be massively outnumbered by the decent people, curious about shooting who just won't bother, the pool of those wanting to 'graduate' to powder burners will rapidly shrink and all branches of shooting sports willl be poisoned from the roots upwards. The whole tree will wither and die within a decade or two. Too many people on here can't wait for that to happen :(

[thepasty]

if a FAC applicant has no firearms experience then they could be mentored for the first 6 months or the like and learn a lot more than they'll ever learn from doing some stale training, no need for yet more bureaucratic restrictive nonsense.

[manton]

This is quite an interesting topic, I hate all forms of compulsory training and despise organisations or groups who seem to spend their time thinking up hurdles for others to jump over . D.S C .is a prime example and has become nothing more than an expensive piece of paper which grew out of a "good idea "someone had.

Having said all that, I am often shocked to hear a customer in a gun shop ask a dealer questions like ,Can I shoot rooks out of trees or makes a statement like "surely the bullet will only travel about a 100 yds" when purchasing a .22 l.r.

Learning about purely technical matters, like how to set a up a scope , caring for a gun and ammunition characteristics are part of the fun and sport of shooting and can be easily learned from the "legally liable style " documentation now supplied with all guns, in fact many companies even stamp "refer to user manual " on the guns barrel ! Scope manufactures also produce detailed instructions for setting up their products.

I feel that the area which requires attention is that covered by the F.E.O interview which should include questions about gun safety ,range, suitable back stops etc and an applicant who cannot display a sound understanding of these matters should not be granted a F,A,C,.

[tjm160]

Very fair question, but what about common sense which has served us well thus far? Health and safety started as a very good thing for protecting employees genuinely at risk in the building trade and yet has snowballed to a level of the ridiculous, where an employee in any sector can hardly move a chair in their office without completing a risk assessment.

 

Surely the purpose of the police interviews pre-FAC grant is to quiz an individual to assess their suitability and readiness to possess and use firearms? I have a good deal of firearms experience both inside and outside the military but did not feel fully comfortable that I was adequately prepared for the grant of an FAC without a measure of mentoring/familiarisation first. Friends with FAC's have therefore been vital unofficial mentors giving me the exposure, experience and confidence that I can safely and responsibly own and use firearms for field sporting use (and my application just happens to be going into the post tomorrow). Do we really see incidents of a scale that would warrant formalising / mandating / regulating (with all they entail) such common sense (I hope this does not come across as contentious, rather an honest question to hear others perspectives)?

[CharlieT]

Farmers are among the most dangerous user groups- fact!

Perhaps you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of the data that show farmers are the most dangerous group of rifle users.

[HDAV]

David from BASC has quoted the stats many times............ shooting insurance is cheap, why? because it is very rarely used...................

 

There are very few injuries and incidents most are from the "experienced" end of the spectrum......

 

Shooting is so highly regulated already anyone think of another activity that requires you to be personally interviewed by the police? The Police or home office to approve the venue? and or the equipment?

Edited April 7, 2013 by HDAV

[HDAV]

if a FAC applicant has no firearms experience then they could be mentored for the first 6 months or the like and learn a lot more than they'll ever learn from doing some stale training, no need for yet more bureaucratic restrictive nonsense.

 

What is mentoring? Who should be a mentor? what happens at the end of 6 months? How many shots do you have fire supervised to approved as safe to shoot unsupervised?

 

Is an hour of mentoring enough? 20 hours? 200 hours?

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=90&pageid=13863 its 30 hours flying time for a PPL........ interestingly requires medical cert from GP lasts 5 years and costs about £200............. remind you of anything.........

[The Ghost]

If we all had training we could be as good as the Police, they never get it wrong....well not often?

 

Police have finally admitted they got it wrong in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menez.........It was his naughty brother Dennis they were after.

[alendil]

heh be careful what you wish for.

it will be like in poland .

mandatory training for FAC and only 10 % aplications are granted .

it is so hard in poland to get in to shooting sport. England is so much more pro shoot.

[_martin_]

Im already paying a fortune for training and retraining and re registering with so called governing bodies (robing ****), unfortunately that's part of my work.

No intention of paying over the odds to participate in my chosen recreational sport.

The only ones that would benefit from mandatory training would be the ones that deliver training.

Even after training it does not mean that the individual is going to be practising whats been taught, why should they, they have a little piece of paper that says they are competent and can forget the rest.

Oh, and it does happen too often.

 

Training providers aren't in the business of failing people. If they did then candidates will move to another training provider. They are in the business to make money, loads of it.

More often than not, its individuals that are involved with training establishments that are pushing for more & more & even more training.

 

The best business to get into these days is training, loads of £££££ to be made, especially as some do good-ers want bloody training for everything. H&S gone mad.

Im not convinced training shooters is going to, or not going to, reduce accident's. Cant think of any serious shooting accident's though

 

When I started shooting I was wise enough to seek the advice and help of a experienced shooters , not some twit that's passed some course or other, doesn't mean that im better than the next bloke though, but I do use common sense.

 

The worst so called shooter I recently had the displeasure of shooting with, was an ex military person, thankfully he has now sold his rifle

Then again Ive shot alongside my eldest son, ex military, and in fairness his gun safety was second to none. Goes to show that training means sod all, its down to the individual.

 

This argument can go on for ever but on the day each individual has a duty of care, whether they show it is another thing, such is life.

 

Now sod more mandatory training and red tape and go out and shoot SAFELY

[Blunderbuss]

Martin - good post

[Kes]

I have been reading all these posts as, well basically, its the future of our sport.

I agree with all who say air rifles are the foundation and cornerstone of a shooting life - at least they were - we do need to protect that route into shooting perhaps more than any other. Rifle clubs perhaps should look outwardly to encourage routes into shooting and offer therefore 'free training' to those who's Dad or Brother cant teach them (we have an increasingly Urban population).

Those shooting groups who want to protect their 'standards' need to help others to achieve the same level and not try and close off membership or restrict further access to shooting by those who have less experience etc. In this instance I think full bore rifle shooting could generally do more to help. Maybe a bit more training/testing could reasonably be introduced for the very young entrants (public confidence). Maybe therefore shooting could stand a sort of driving theory test, designed to ensure a safe level of knowledge and application to learning the sport. However, any such test should be out of the hands of the police or it becomes progressively more regulatory and can be used as a means of control. Maybe our shooting organisations could offer a few one day courses for those who want to learn - free, and point individuals to where they need to learn more and provide the information/guidance to do that. We might then have people who 'have attended a shooting safety course' which says much about their interest.

Overall though if it ain't broke don't fix it. Of course there are those who know more than others but I again ask how many accidents - how many accidental injuries ?

On the whole, the 'right kind of shooter' will learn and be safe, as it has always been. We must find ways to make those who care less, take responsibility for their own improvement in a non regulatory way and peer pressure is important.

Those who would seek to impress with their knowledge and condemn those who do not have as much or their experience, do nothing for the sport IMHO, we need more who put themselves out to offer help and support not criticism and ridicule on forums like this.

 

Also, increasingly, "I have a DSC 1/2" is apparently a badge of some sort - whoever started this wasnt a committed shooter, it was a means of control/making money. I have a deer calibre on my FAC and I will continue to pay for resasonably priced stalks until I know enough about deer to cull them without injury. Who says I must achieve their standard before I can shoot them? Support guidance and assistance are key here, I feel, and our shooting organisations should be looking to increase participation rates not necessarily to make more money out of members or try to increase 'confidence' in a public who think guns are dangerous per se.

 

Edit - punctuation.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Kes

[kent]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of the data that show farmers are the most dangerous group of rifle users.

 

Well firstly a fatality a young lad ( I am removing major detail here so as not to open old wounds) was shot and killed in the NW by a farmer wielding a .410 at rats. There was the farmer only a couple years ago who planted a .22 bullet into the kids head in the school yard (he was shooting corvids in trees). I was personally told by one farmer with a good 40yds experience how you can often miss a crow in a tree and have it take off and be intercepted by a mis guided .22 curving in over its head and see the strike. Problem stems from the fact that unless a farmer is a well known and proven barm pot they are given guns far more freely than those that have done training, visited clubs and have a real interest- who these days get a mentoring condition handed out as likely as not. Now find me a farmer that gets a mentoring condition! I am not anti farmer, this is my experience and I do live in an area were 90% of the population are farmers and am certainly no townie. To many farmers its a tool and all you need to know is point it and pull the trigger, has anyone wondered why you meet some farmers that are dead set against rifles? Could it be that they have seen the results of mis managing their use in the past and prefer to blame the tool rather than the user? Farmers and Foresters should not be treated as a separate niche but equally

Specific farmer based data is not available, they only seem to record suicides for the group separately and I bet a good proportion of mis-use of crimes committed with licenced firearms comes under that heading in all groups. Data is just information as they say anyway "lies dambed lies and statistics"

Edited April 8, 2013 by kent

[Elmer Fudd 1]

there is a lot of space for variation in firearm handling across the country we must remember. for example if a person grew up shooting in a valley and that was all they ever knew they would be very safe in that environment we could hope. but put the same shooter on a flat field near a built up area and without experience or knowledge of the land they may be deemed as a danger to the area. im not saying they would be but they are at increased risk.

what im trying to say is although people do give bad advice on these forums. i would imagine in some peoples deference that their advice may suit the environment that they hunt in. tips they give may be the most effective tips for people local to them but completely dangerous to members on the other side of the country.

i would say take all posts with a pinch of salt and depending on the availability and suitability of the members location. take it in it account

 

please take this with a pinch of salt too. its my opinion remember

 

fudd

[wymberley]

I must be the only one who's never heard this!

 

Police have finally admitted they got it wrong in the shooting of Jean Charles de Menez.........It was his naughty brother Dennis they were after.

 

Idiot! :lol:

[Thunderbird]

Hmmm, OK but where are all these alleged posts with the dangerous advice, presumably more or less involving safe backstops/shots and such? Or are they all in the airgun forum?

 

Usually on PW when someone asks a question which could lead them down a dangerous route people are quick enough to jump on it.

 

For example has anyone on PW ever seriously advised someone to shoot a bird off a tree branch using a rifle (with the sky as a backstop)?

 

EDIT: Spelling

Edited April 8, 2013 by Thunderbird

[al4x]

Well firstly a fatality a young lad ( I am removing major detail here so as not to open old wounds) was shot and killed in the NW by a farmer wielding a .410 at rats. There was the farmer only a couple years ago who planted a .22 bullet into the kids head in the school yard (he was shooting corvids in trees). I was personally told by one farmer with a good 40yds experience how you can often miss a crow in a tree and have it take off and be intercepted by a mis guided .22 curving in over its head and see the strike. Problem stems from the fact that unless a farmer is a well known and proven barm pot they are given guns far more freely than those that have done training,

 

 

well with that evidence its obvious farmers are the most dangerous group

[Paul223]

I'd think most get into the sport through using an air rifle, I did, was lucky enough to be bought a few books covering various different aspects of shooting with both shotgun and rifle, read them cover to cover, many times, and still use them as reference. Plus having a true mentor in the way of a farther who shot occasionally.

 

I don't see how interweb forums are that much different to a good book, the real difference is that you can ask a specific question and get many tailored answers, the majority of which will usually be good advice, as has already been said numpties get pulled up quite quick!

 

I'd like to see rifle ranges and clay clubs run open days were young un's get to have a go and receive a little education!

[Dekers]

I'd think most get into the sport through using an air rifle, I did, was lucky enough to be bought a few books covering various different aspects of shooting with both shotgun and rifle, read them cover to cover, many times, and still use them as reference. Plus having a true mentor in the way of a farther who shot occasionally.

 

I don't see how interweb forums are that much different to a good book, the real difference is that you can ask a specific question and get many tailored answers, the majority of which will usually be good advice, as has already been said numpties get pulled up quite quick!

 

I'd like to see rifle ranges and clay clubs run open days were young un's get to have a go and receive a little education!

 

This is not uncommon, and the BASC run their Young Shoots program.

 

The NRA run Open Days at Bisley (and elseware) and plenty of "clubs" have their own initiatives

 

There is always more that can be done of course!

Edited April 8, 2013 by Dekers

[al4x]

The problem is you get so many answers on the web and its hard to tell fact from fiction, after all if you look on here you'd assume the hornet was the best caliber for foxing as it gets rammed down any new members throat when the facts are its hard to buy one as they hardly make any they are that in demand The simple facts are its hard to work out who actually shoots and who is just reciting what they have learned from their armchair. Its easy to become an expert on the net

Books at least have one opinion

I don't see how interweb forums are that much different to a good book, the real difference is that you can ask a specific question and get many tailored answers, the majority of which will usually be good advice, as has already been said numpties get pulled up quite quick!