Gordon R Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) GHE - you might well know a bit about the law. I have more experience in that area than most. I have jumped to no conclusions. The matter before the court is whether your son was justified in firing the gun in the way that he did, or whether there were other options. You might not like the other options, but they did exist. The Police evidence may be right or wrong, but it might turn out to be a side issue, with no bearing on the judgement of the court. If I were to accept your experience in law, then your son has nothing to worry about. How can he fail? Let me be clear. I admire you for supporting your son. I wish both him and yourself well. I am not sure that he will win - that's life. Edited February 17, 2015 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 im broke for the following few weeks, but as soon as i get paid i will happily donate as much as i can fella. top man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I am well aware of the meaning of "innocent" - perhaps a little more than you. He has been cleared of committing any crime, but the Police presumably are calling his judgement into question . Wrongdoing would include shooting, when another course of action was possible. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Gordon, we are all aware of your background but do you think you could have made your first sentence a little less patronising? The guy is facing a serious financial burden, the cessation of Bills pastimes and a load of (probably) unwanted publicity and all through no fault of his own. It may be better if some of the legal minded on here tried to do something about the abject sentencing, police wrong doing etc rather than lecture some poor sod whose found himself in the doodoo. Not a pop at you personally, I just feel for the bloke tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 spanj - point taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 GHE - you might well know a bit about the law. I have more experience in that area than most. I have jumped to no conclusions. The matter before the court is whether your son was justified in firing the gun in the way that he did, or whether there were other options. You might not like the other options, but they did exist. The Police evidence may be right or wrong, but it might turn out to be a side issue, with no bearing on the judgement of the court. If I were to accept your experience in law, then your son has nothing to worry about. How can he fail? Let me be clear. I admire you for supporting your son. I wish both him and yourself well. I am not sure that he will win - that's life. You're absolutely right that he may not win, very few of these appeals are successful. We knew that risk but felt it necessary to go ahead against the odds. Yes, he did have other options, there are always other options. 1. He could have shot him dead 2. He could have done nothing and waited to see whether his mother survived 3. He could have stepped in front of his mother, held up his arm and said "I say, stop" - which would have worked about as well for him as it did for Captain Ralph Binney 4. He could have hoped that the police would turn up in the nick of time, just like Superman - after all, the nearest police car was only 7 miles away. In a way, this has nothing to do with his use of a shotgun, it is really just about the use of force and the fact that the implement of force happened to be a shotgun isn't really relevant. There is some written evidence that can never be published, doing so would amount to a breach of priviledge. But I will publish full details of public domain evidence once the case is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 GHE - I accept we don't know the full story and I genuinely wish you and your son well. I just worry that you might be faced with an outcome which both of you feel is unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I've been following this case and the young farmer is innocent of any crime. He was never even charged. Despite this, they took away his licences and refuse to give them back, forcing him to go to court and spend a fortune to represent himself. The appeal is for the return of licences by an innocent man, to restore his career. I don't know Bill but the case is familiar in tone to certain other revocations which have taken place and it's our job to make sure that the police cannot simply do this on a whim, for political reasons. Any one of us placed in his position would have acted in the same way. There is no premeditation here, no malice. He reacted to an immediate threat to life and limb and happened to have a shotgun with him at the time, as was his right. This is a young kid who was forced into a situation he didn't ask for, forced to act and now finds his entire future career at stake, all because some idiot decided to steal metal and try to hurt him and his mother with a massive van. On the issue of costs, I believe the police have a special dispensation which means that win or lose, the lad could be responsible for paying the police costs. So his current bill of £50k, could skyrocket. Yet he still did not do anything wrong and only wants his licence restored, as an innocent man. Surely we have a duty to help this lad out? Edited February 18, 2015 by notsosureshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Best of luck in court, until the verdict is reached its all to play for. Sometimes a few words will swing it entirely. fingers crossed and keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I wish you and your son all the best. I realise it's something of a side issue but I'm just interested in what liability lies with the police for the apparent damage to the guns they confiscated. I note the quote that it looks like they played hockey with them and the guns have been ruined, can you claim compensation from the police for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I wish bill all the best of luck in court,i hope he gets his licence back,the lad did nothing wrong in my eyes protecting his mum like he did.good on him!i think he had great restraint in only shooting the van and not the theif.ill deffo donate some money if this crowd fund thing is set up.ATB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I wish you and your son all the best. I realise it's something of a side issue but I'm just interested in what liability lies with the police for the apparent damage to the guns they confiscated. I note the quote that it looks like they played hockey with them and the guns have been ruined, can you claim compensation from the police for this? The police have a duty of care. Problem is, because we didn't know this was going to happen we weren't able to take details photos of the guns and so can't prove that they are responsible for the damage. They put the guns, complete with ammo, in the back of a police car and left them unattended (if any of us did that we'd be in trouble) and didn't bother with the gun slips. It's mainly damage to woodwork and scratches on the metalwork, the .243 rifle was obviously banged on the ground because the screw thread for the modeerator is badly damaged. The gun that he actually used in the incident now has a badly pitted barrel, they had it from Aug 2012 until June 2013 but of course didn't clean it. All guns and rifles are also rusty, obviously stored somewhere damp. I wish bill all the best of luck in court,i hope he gets his licence back,the lad did nothing wrong in my eyes protecting his mum like he did.good on him!i think he had great restraint in only shooting the van and not the theif.ill deffo donate some money if this crowd fund thing is set up.ATB Thanks. The crowdfunding appeal IS set up and running and I'm amazed at people's generosity, it will make a real difference, win or lose Please click here, http://www.gofundme.com/mivt00 and at the bottom of the page you will see a link to more details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I wish you and your son all the best. I realise it's something of a side issue but I'm just interested in what liability lies with the police for the apparent damage to the guns they confiscated. I note the quote that it looks like they played hockey with them and the guns have been ruined, can you claim compensation from the police for this? Good luck getting compo off the police! Back in the days of paper MOT they took mine as it didn't have a stamp, contacted the issuing garage who confirmed it was genuine but hadn't been stamped, then promptly lost it and told me I'd have to get it re-examined at my own cost as they have an exemption of responsibility for confiscated items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 The appeal is back in Court today, should be finished on Wednesday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belly47 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 This whole story boils my blood, being treated like a criminal due to someone else trying to rob... GHE - I hope that your son gets his guns back, and that you win the case. If I had any spare cash I would certainly help out however I am struggling to keep head above water at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 This whole story boils my blood, being treated like a criminal due to someone else trying to rob... GHE - I hope that your son gets his guns back, and that you win the case. If I had any spare cash I would certainly help out however I am struggling to keep head above water at the moment. Thanks for that. On the subject of donations, every donation will help - but we certainly don't expect people to donate and we understand that not everyone who would like to help financially is able to do so. With or without more donations, we will manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 wish your lad the best of luck from me fella. i really hope you get a favourable outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Just chucked a tenner in,good luck bill,hope you get your guns back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markhoward13 Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I personally can't see what grounds they have for not giving his licence back as if he had done anything wrong in the first place he would have been charged for it. Best of luck with getting them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Your Son has my ultimate support and respect for his restraint-I would have shot the scum dead if he tried to run a member of my family over-good luck with the case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AULD YIN Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Hopefully your son gets the judgement he deserves ( in my opinion) ,his licences back and is awarded FULL costs as well as compensation for his shotguns/rifles. Johnnie Edited February 24, 2015 by AULD YIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 The case is now over, in that all the evidence has been completed and closing submissions made by both counsel, there is now nothing more to be done.We will get the decision tomorrow afternoon, it could go either way, frankly I'm not feeling very optimistic but my view is that, win or lose, we have tried.I'm told that this is the longest certificate appeal ever, with 7 days of evidence. No doubt it's the most expensive too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat bloke Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 GHE. Good luck to you and your family mate, truly hope it goes your way. Regards. Fatty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 Best of luck. ATB 425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Wouldnt of happened in America lol Don't be so sure! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/12/markus-kaarma-killed-german-teen_n_6667370.html Although in fairness, that case looks more like a 'Tony martin' rather than this case. Best of luck GHE! Wasn't the law of self-defence recently 'revised' so that the force just had to not be 'grossly disproportionate', rather than 'reasonable' or does that only apply within the walls of the house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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