Learn something new everyday shotgun cartridges !!

[NicholasSabuldihin]

For many of many year i have always though that shotgun cartirdges were set out 32g no5 shot means 32g of explosive (gunpowder) and just as many no 5 balls they can fit in that lengh of cartridge .. but folowing a conversation at a club ground today i was told that 32g no5 shot means that there is 32g of no5 shot inside the cartridge .. so this got me thinking do all cartridges has the same amount of explosive (gunpowder) in them ? and the number in g just means how many grams of the shot is inside ? so in theory if that is correct you have more chance on hitting a target with the more amount of g shot inside, on the theory that the no of shot is the same size ? ..

[Ropemunky]

32g of nitro powder probably wouldn't even fit into the case.

[Lord Geordie]

For many of many year i have always though that shotgun cartirdges were set out 32g no5 shot means 32g of explosive (gunpowder) and just as many no 5 balls they can fit in that lengh of cartridge .. but folowing a conversation at a club ground today i was told that 32g no5 shot means that there is 32g of no5 shot inside the cartridge .. so this got me thinking do all cartridges has the same amount of explosive (gunpowder) in them ? and the number in g just means how many grams of the shot is inside ? so in theory if that is correct you have more chance on hitting a target with the more amount of g shot inside, on the theory that the no of shot is the same size ? ..

Your question is not as silly as it seems!

 

The way to learn is to pick things up, being verbally or visually etc.

 

The Answer is NO, There is not the same amount of powder in each charge!

 

Each Cartridge 410, 28, 20, 16, 12 and so on requires different amounts of powders for the various weight os shot they project. Even 28 gram of shot can have a varying amount of powder, dependant on the hull, primer and wad even.

 

the information you were given is correct that the 28g stands for the weight of SHOT contained in the cartridge.

 

Also depending on the shooting you are doing, Just because you get more weight it does not mean you get more shots in the air. You can get a 28g #11 shot and a 30g #4 and there will be more shot in the #11 as they are smaller shot than the #4.

 

But YOUR theory of, " if the shot size is the same size but a larger weight" then YES you will have more shot in the air! As for a better chance of hitting your target, I guess there is some merit in that, But a good fitting gun and the correct handeling should see you manage with 28g of shot on clays AND game!

 

there are a lot of variations in the humble cartridge to cover a wide range of scenarios.

 

Just remember the only SILLY question is the one you don't ask!

 

LG

Edited October 3, 2013 by Lord Geordie

[FalconFN]

Wouldn't more mass (of the shot) have an effect on the energy of the shot? The higher the mass the more pressure builds before it is ejected, so the higher the total energy transferred - or is the nitro amount altered?

[Lord Geordie]

Wouldn't more mass (of the shot) have an effect on the energy of the shot? The higher the mass the more pressure builds before it is ejected, so the higher the total energy transferred - or is the nitro amount altered?

In short, Yes the powder charge is adjusted for the weight of shot!

[JDog]

I use very light cartridges (26grammes) in my 12 guage on the basis that less weight of shot is propelled quicker than a heavier load given the same amount of powder. I suspect from what I am reading that this is not the case.

[Dangerous Brian]

Wouldn't more mass (of the shot) have an effect on the energy of the shot? The higher the mass the more pressure builds before it is ejected, so the higher the total energy transferred - or is the nitro amount altered?

Lord Geordie has your question pretty well covered. I will add my bit and hope it helps.

 

If you increase the mass of shot without changing anything else the pressure will go up. If you take this to the extreme, the pressure of the shell will be out of proof (ie not a good idea to use it). When loading (me at least) the aim is to get the required mass of shot moving at the required speed without going over the maximum proof pressure. One way of doing this is to select a slower burning powder so that pressure builds slowly rather than giving a massive spike. Generally big heavy loads will run slower powders. Alternatively, if you stick with one powder you may have to run heavier loads at slower speeds to avoid excess pressure. These are just general basics and one other thought before I go is a 28gram load in a 12 gauge and a 28gram load in 20 (or 28 gauge etc)are very likely to have different powders as the pressure characteristics of each load vary widely.

[Dangerous Brian]

I use very light cartridges (26grammes) in my 12 guage on the basis that less weight of shot is propelled quicker than a heavier load given the same amount of powder. I suspect from what I am reading that this is not the case.

Just saw this after I posted above. Without knowing your load recipe it is difficult to know what is happening (even then there are better people than me on here to interpret it). Generalising a bit: If you simply reduce the mass of shot and keep everything else the same there is a possibility that the speed is actually lower than the original. By reducing the shot mass you reduce the inertia so the pressure does not build in the same way. Without enough pressure the powder will not burn properly so you end up adding more to get the thing moving again. A word of warning; too much pressure may be a hospital job. You cannot simply keep heaping in the powder to get it to work.

[Underdog]

Good points. Also it (the powder) is not an explosive...it is a propellent. It has it's origins as an explosive but is controlled/ slowed down with additives and many variations are avaoilable.

The only explosive type of fuel available is black powder, it is a know explosive, not a propellent however we can use it to propel safely.

 

Lighter loads can be shot faster but not really dramaticaly, all sorts of other issues appear besides high pressures.

 

U.

[Underdog]

This may help;

 

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/how_ammo_works/shotshell_ammo/default.aspx

 

U.

[NicholasSabuldihin]

Thankyou everyone ,, i was baffeld to thing i have been wrong all these years but it seam to make sense .. this shoting isent as simple as expected there is a huge amount of physics and science behind it .,. good to here with everyone help now that i do understand cartridges and loads thanks everyone

[simonix]

This is all news to me too! Never realised the quoted "weight" on cartridges was the shot! Seems obvious now I know! Haha!

[Guest cookoff013]

Good points. Also it (the powder) is not an explosive...it is a propellent. It has it's origins as an explosive but is controlled/ slowed down with additives and many variations are avaoilable.

The only explosive type of fuel available is black powder, it is a know explosive, not a propellent however we can use it to propel safely.

 

Lighter loads can be shot faster but not really dramaticaly, all sorts of other issues appear besides high pressures.

 

U.

 

yup.

the issues i`ve had with several ultrafast lead loads are,

having high enough pressure.

keeping the pressure variations high and still within either saami or cip.

having everything fit in a shell.

speed regulation (shot-shot variation)

 

this to name but a few issues.

 

then after all that the shells can still be ****.

[Hesketh]

I am new to this game just had my first shot the other night with some 21g, 24g & 28g gameboar loads and I too was wondering why these 3 carts all had the same speed listed, as I too was thinking the gram was the explosive load.

 

So dose a 28g steel load have more actual shots in it over a 28g lead load?

[sitsinhedges]

I am new to this game just had my first shot the other night with some 21g, 24g & 28g gameboar loads and I too was wondering why these 3 carts all had the same speed listed, as I too was thinking the gram was the explosive load.

 

So dose a 28g steel load have more actual shots in it over a 28g lead load?

Steel is lighter so an equivalent load of lead shot of the same size would contain less pellets gram for gram.

[silver pigeon69]

i was told to give less of a lead on 21gram as opposed to a 26gram due to it being faster?? so is this rubbish then?

[sitsinhedges]

i was told to give less of a lead on 21gram as opposed to a 26gram due to it being faster?? so is this rubbish then?

 

Yes weight doesn't necessarily have any relation to speed. You learn what lead to give by gaining personal experience of what is needed but by and large the lead will generally be about the same because any variation in speed isn't that significant compared to other factors such as your ability to judge a target and swing and shoot at it consistently.

[silver pigeon69]

 

Yes weight doesn't necessarily have any relation to speed. You learn what lead to give by gaining personal experience of what is needed but by and large the lead will generally be about the same because any variation in speed isn't that significant compared to other factors such as your ability to judge a target and swing and shoot at it consistently.

so thats why i keep missing!! lol Thanks Sitsinhedges

[Floating Chamber]

Basic: 'shoot where it (the target) is going, not where it has been'.

[remmyman]

For many of many year i have always though that shotgun cartirdges were set out 32g no5 shot means 32g of explosive (gunpowder) and just as many no 5 balls they can fit in that lengh of cartridge .. but folowing a conversation at a club ground today i was told that 32g no5 shot means that there is 32g of no5 shot inside the cartridge .. so this got me thinking do all cartridges has the same amount of explosive (gunpowder) in them ? and the number in g just means how many grams of the shot is inside ? so in theory if that is correct you have more chance on hitting a target with the more amount of g shot inside, on the theory that the no of shot is the same size ? ..

Hi, and well done for asking the question. As LG said too many people are afraid to 'go public' in case they are ridiculed, we all had to start somewhere and asking is how we learn.

Now, without going too deep, the ideal scenario when we pull the trigger on a cartridge is that the firing pin hits the primer with minimal 'locktime', then the said primer is of the right type in terms of it's suitability to reliably/consistently ignite the 'propellant' in a variety of temperature/climatic extremes. The 'propellant' must be of a suitable type in terms of its 'burn rate, stability and suitability' for the cartridges' intended purpose, ie. target/hunting applications. Though it is in a steel tube the 'propellant' burns by creating its own oxygen. As it burns, it produces large amounts of hot gas which then, due to its containment begins to produce extremely high pressure. This pressure then begins to 'act' on the wad, which in the case of a modern 'plaswad' begins to compress. As this compression continues to take place, the pressure builds to such an extent that it overcomes the resistance of the wad/shotload and crimp, and these two components have no choice but to embark on their journey down the barrel at anything up to and incl 1500ft/sec in the fastest 'clay' loads.So far so good, but of course this happy chain of events must take place WITHOUT EXCEEDING THE MEAN SERVICE PRESSURE of said firearm.

 

Now, as the shot (contained within the plaswad) exits the barrel, it is immediately affected by atmospheric conditions, along with the bugbear of all projectilesAIR -RESISTANCE which begins to act by slowing and forcing apart the 300 odd pellets in a typical 30g game load. As the wad is considerably lighter, less aerodynamic than the shot it contains, it gets left behind, leaving the shot to speed on its way to the target. Hopefully the cartridge manufacturer has done his job by blending the right powder with the right primer, the right shot (hardness, quality and amount) in the right wad, reaching the right velocity, whilst achieving/maintaining the right pattern density when put through the right choke in order to kill the intended target, be it game or clay!

 

AS A GENERAL RULE OF THUMB, bigger pellets need to be of a bigger payload to achieve adequate pattern density. To use an analogy, visualise a kilo of apples against a kilo of cherries. Sorry if I got a bit carried away, hope this helps.

 

Regards Remmyman

 

PS If memory serves me right a propellant burns at less than the speed of sound, and an explosive burns at more so thus resulting in a detonation.

[Splashy]

I have been reloading rifle cartridges for many years and it is amazing how much difference a minute difference in grains of powder makes to the speed of the bullet. You have to be very careful that the energy produced does not exceed the safe limit. Also, the choice of powder makes a great difference. Different powders burn at different speeds and thus create different energies.

 

The greatest indicator of more energy is the hit on your shoulder. The more kick, the greater the energy of the cartridge. If you have a 28g cartridge that kicks like a mule and a 28g cartridge that is relatively light on the shoulder then the hardest kicking cartridge is sending out the shot at a higher speed. This translates to more energy on the target.

 

Shot size introduces a whole new set of variables. If you shoot 28g of number 9 and 28g of number 5 then they have the same energy if the powder is the same. BUT with number 9 shot you have many more pellets and so you have a greater chance of hitting something. Each number 9 shot will have less energy though so hitting a live target with number 9 will result in greater penetration but less energy transferred. It is the same as with the battle between .177 and .22.

 

When I had a fox problem I bought some AA cartridges. I fired at a fox from about 20 metres. At that distance if a single shot had hit its head then the fox would have dropped. I missed totally and the fox trotted off. The reduced number of shot results in a pattern that has holes in it (big enough for a fox to get through). I then shot at a fox with number 5 and it dropped instantly. Each number 5 shot has enough energy to easily kill a fox and the number of pellets sent out meant that I was able to get more on target.

 

I believe that when choosing a cartridge the most important consideration is choosing one that you feel comfortable with. If it kicks too hard then it will affect your shooting. Hitting the target with the center of the pattern is the most important thing. If you can hit a pigeon with the center of the pattern, even with a subsonic load, then it will drop.

[NicholasSabuldihin]

Thankyou everyone with the great response has really opend my eyes into fact of choosing the right cartridge, next time i will pay more attention to what i buy

[Underdog]

Splashy....where you say a number nine will penertrate better but have little energy (or something like that) I am not to sure you have that quite right matey!

 

That aside, shot from shotguns is very dependant on the effects of multiple strikes.

I favour small shot. Notto increase my chance at hitting something but because I want multiple strikes. Multi strikes give more wound channels. More chances of breakingbone. Wings or necks and heads. Large shot can often be selected due to a fascination for the chasing of high energy figures which in my HUMBLE opinion is folly.

 

U.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think he needs to have said that with No 9 you would get more hits on the target but LESS penetration due to the small size of the pellets and the low amount of energy each individual pellet carries!

[scotslad]

It could be probably argued that u possibly could get more penetration in thoery as smaller surface area of pellet so will require less energy to penetrate (ie small needle compared to a knitting needle ) but wether that transfers to practical shooting i would doubt ti

 

Must admit i far prefer smaller shot in a cartridge to get a denser shot pattern. Possibly i'm a poor shot but i find birds fold far better for me with smaller shot and are less likely to wound at longer ranges.

 

Slightly off topic but i remeber an article in the shooting times (think blue zulu wrote it) a while ago, basically in 1 of those old books about the golden years of victorian driven shooting. One of the famous lords/landed gentry done a survey off all his shooting mates if they ever shot a really really high bird mark it and send it to him, he plucked and Post Mortemed the birds and in all the cases the birds had little if any shot damage to body and only 1 or 2 pellets to head neck area.

He came up with the theory more important to have a denser pattern and try to get some pellets in the head area, if going to a high bird shoot they would take some 8's with them for the high ones, oppisate off wot folk do now.