got cartridges today then asked to taken a copy of my sgc

[Kes]

As far as ammo sales are concerned Section 1 stuff is entered as we all know - it is an obligation at law for a seller to check that a person who intends to buy shotgun ammo has a valid shotgun certificate. You can then give them to anyone you like but I always give carts to people I know who have SGC. Several cartridge sellers have had warnings from the police and one (I am aware of ) has had his licence withdrawn for not checking certs before sales. i.e. supplying cartridges to someone without seeing a valid and current cert.

I make ammo for my mate who has a .223. If he shoots with me I have to be sure he uses all the ammo in my presence, has approval if expanding ammo is used and ensure, if I give him any for later use it is actually entered on his certificate. As we all know you cant sell reloaded ammo, just give it away. He and I will share my press and powders and I will get him to buy his own heads - no problem then.

[HDAV]

what next?

 

keeping empty shells for ballistic testing "just in case"

 

 

 

crazy.

You know GMP already tried thus......

 

 

The law (iirc) is clear no restriction on section 2 ammo, the guidance is not.... Accepted practise in a shop is to see SGC but at a clay ground due to the 11(6) it often isn't as plenty of people buying carts dont have SGC's....

[J_Edwards]

It's a bit dodgy for anyone, except the police to have copys of people's licences. If someone were to get hold of these copies, they could easily find out where you live, and what guns you have. It must be some sort of scheme to find out who is buying their ammo where, or to make sure that the shop is actually asking to see your certificates.

[deershooter]

I run this by the lincs firearms licensing manager earlier to day and it's the first time he has come across it , he was going to have a word with Cecil

 

Deershooter

[Wiltsmark]

It would be good to get the precise law, so we can quote it in the event of being asked.....

 

It is however about time we had plastic cards instead of the large format licence we have today.

How would we enter bought/sold details on a plastic card ?

Agree it would be easier to carry around without be damaged.

[littlerob]

How would we enter bought/sold details on a plastic card ?

Agree it would be easier to carry around without be damaged.

as we have with our diving license two parts a paper part for current guns new and sold and a plastic one for our wallet

[littlerob]

I was at forest lodge guns middle of last week . And to be honest I paid no mind to it until now but there was a big hand written sign on the door saying " shotgun certificate must be shown before any cartridges purchased " I will ask next time I go in . See whats its all about .it could be something completely different . But worth an ask .

cecil also have up several hand written signs say certificates must be shown befor perchasing cartridge

[Wiltsmark]

as we have with our diving license two parts a paper part for current guns new and sold and a plastic one for our wallet

Now that would be a good idea

[littlerob]

Now that would be a good idea

 

 

as we have with our diving license two parts a paper part for current guns new and sold and a plastic one for our wallet

like i said little plastic card with police force logo/ badge our picture start date and run out date our date of birth address and saying holder of section 2 SGC or section 1 FAC or both if you have them and a paper part like we currently have and i wouldn't mind paying the extra this cost

[HDAV]

Well as all RFD's have to go computerised from 1/9/14 why not chipped like a credit card? Rfd has reader/writer linked to police computer 1 for 1 done on the spot, variations added automatically photo shared with dvla/passport agency ammo bought logged guns bought logged open slots shown job done.

[kent]

Well as all RFD's have to go computerised from 1/9/14 why not chipped like a credit card? Rfd has reader/writer linked to police computer 1 for 1 done on the spot, variations added automatically photo shared with dvla/passport agency ammo bought logged guns bought logged open slots shown job done.

Hey get real last I heard the national firearms data base wasn't even fully functional, your talking public sector here were it takes three people and a load of paperwork to purchase loo roll from a preferred supplier at twice the price of the supermarket up the road.

[Big Mat]

Well as all RFD's have to go computerised from 1/9/14 why not chipped like a credit card? Rfd has reader/writer linked to police computer 1 for 1 done on the spot, variations added automatically photo shared with dvla/passport agency ammo bought logged guns bought logged open slots shown job done.

 

the RFD that this thread has not even moved up to accepting card payments so i think a system like that is a little far for them

[bluesj]

Well as all RFD's have to go computerised from 1/9/14 why not chipped like a credit card? Rfd has reader/writer linked to police computer 1 for 1 done on the spot, variations added automatically photo shared with dvla/passport agency ammo bought logged guns bought logged open slots shown job done.

That is a very good and sensible idea!

So one thing you can be sure of is it won't happen!

[motty]

It's a bit dodgy for anyone, except the police to have copys of people's licences. If someone were to get hold of these copies, they could easily find out where you live, and what guns you have. It must be some sort of scheme to find out who is buying their ammo where, or to make sure that the shop is actually asking to see your certificates.

It's not really that dodgy. Two farmers have photocopies of my certificate - it is necessary for me to have permission to shoot on the two farms. There are no gun details on the front of the certificate, only my name and address. No big deal.

My wildfowling club also asks for copies of certificates. What's the problem?

[HDAV]

It's not really that dodgy. Two farmers have photocopies of my certificate - it is necessary for me to have permission to shoot on the two farms. There are no gun details on the front of the certificate, only my name and address. No big deal.

My wildfowling club also asks for copies of certificates. What's the problem?

Why do the farmers need a copy of your cert

[Dave-G]

Why do the farmers need a copy of your cert

Risk assessment and insurance.

[barney 66]

I usually offer copies of my licence and insurance to farmers where I shoot if they want them with my mobile number on the front, but beforehand in capital letters I write COPY on the front

[Guest stevo]

The point is being Totally missed here by some .

 

giving a copy your ticket to a famer ....no problem , I do it just like many of us do .

 

giving a copy to an internet company like just cartridges ( other outlet's are available ) ... no problem , how else are there to know who is buying them , and before anyone says " yeah but you could be anyone sending in a dodgy copy " err not really , the copy of your ticket still has to match the address supplied with your banking details the goods still and HAS to go to the card holders address .

and you don't need a shotgun licence to buy cartridges , you can walk onto any clay ground , buy 1000 cartridges , with NO license , use 250 on the day , and quite legally put the other 750 in the boot of your car , go home and store them in your spare room without problem , no law has been broken .

gun shops only ask , as they seem to think its going to cover the backside , lots of people I know , myself included have sent there miss into to pick up a slab without question .

 

the REAL point here is ......Once again the police and FEO's are making up the rules as they go along , and it needs to be stopped , The rules are there for everyone, not just US !

RFD's and shooters need to grow a pair and complain to the powers that be , and if you are to find yourself in this situation , buy your goods from an on line supplier or whatever , there RFD's will soon start kicking off to the FEO's ect ect when it starts to hit there pocket ,

 

if I get asked for a copy later this week , I will simply explain my stance and buy else ware . job done !! ( ie on line )

 

I will always surport my local gun shop , but not if there going to go along with stupid and unjust rules made up by someone as they go along .

 

 

 

stevo

Edited August 27, 2014 by stevo

[seeker]

From the HO guide 2014

iii) Shotgun cartridges

2.51 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun cartridges.

 

..... Been awhile since I saw a copy of The Firearms Act '68 etc but IIRC there is an onus on the Dealer to ensure sales are only to those entitled to purchase - hence sight of SGC.

As to copies there is no mention, but as GordonR says, there's bound to be a personal data issue somewhere?

A quick look at Just Cartridges site and they have details of their Data Protection Policy and requirement for a copy of the SGC.

Last time I photocopied my FAC &SGCs the copies had the word "Forgery" on it ?

Edited August 27, 2014 by seeker

[HDAV]

Risk assessment and insurance.

Now I am even more confused SGC has most to do with insurance, who is doing the risk assessment? The farmer? Your being paid?

[Scully]

I've given farmers and landowners a 'look see' of my shooting organisation membership card to prove insurance, but have never heard of anyone photocopying a SGC/FAC to give to a farmer or landowner. Why would anyone do this? Why would a farmer need it? That's a new one on me. Anyone got a good reason for this?

BASC's Bill Harriman claims it is infringement of Crown copyright to copy either your SGC or FAC.

[big bad lindz]

If the FEO is making this demand on the shop, have him (FEO) send the shop a letter stating why he requires a copy of a customers ticket and then the shop can present this to the customer in case there is any hasle. Although there may be no legal requirment for this it may help keep the peace.

 

Correct me if I am wrong as I only have a shotgun certificate and not a FAC. do you have to record rounds bought on both the shops records and on your FAC when buying.

[Whitebridges]

The point is being Totally missed here by some .

 

giving a copy your ticket to a famer ....no problem , I do it just like many of us do .

 

giving a copy to an internet company like just cartridges ( other outlet's are available ) ... no problem , how else are there to know who is buying them , and before anyone says " yeah but you could be anyone sending in a dodgy copy " err not really , the copy of your ticket still has to match the address supplied with your banking details the goods still and HAS to go to the card holders address .

and you don't need a shotgun licence to buy cartridges , you can walk onto any clay ground , buy 1000 cartridges , with NO license , use 250 on the day , and quite legally put the other 750 in the boot of your car , go home and store them in your spare room without problem , no law has been broken .

gun shops only ask , as they seem to think its going to cover the backside , lots of people I know , myself included have sent there miss into to pick up a slab without question .

 

the REAL point here is ......Once again the police and FEO's are making up the rules as they go along , and it needs to be stopped , The rules are there for everyone, not just US !

RFD's and shooters need to grow a pair and complain to the powers that be , and if you are to find yourself in this situation , buy your goods from an on line supplier or whatever , there RFD's will soon start kicking off to the FEO's ect ect when it starts to hit there pocket ,

 

if I get asked for a copy later this week , I will simply explain my stance and buy else ware . job done !! ( ie on line )

 

I will always surport my local gun shop , but not if there going to go along with stupid and unjust rules made up by someone as they go along .

 

 

 

stevo

 

 

Well said and brilliantly put that man.

[Guest stevo]

also in case anyone is unsure , you may also give anyone ( as long as there are over 18 yrs of age ) your SGC and a letter of authorisation from you . and they can legally go into a gun shop and buy shotgun cartridge's on your behalf .

 

like I said you don't have to be a cert holder to buy / store / sell shotgun shells as long as they fall into the section 2 category

 

see below .. section 4

 

a) persons to whom firearms and ammunition may be sold or transferred (section 3(2) of the 1968 Act and section 5(2) of the 1988 Act) namely;

 

 

 

1) a person producing a firearm certificate authorising them to acquire that firearm or section 1 ammunition;

 

2) a registered firearms dealer;

 

3) in the case of a shotgun, a person with a current shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate holder who possesses a section 1 shotgun;

 

4) in the case of section 2 (shotgun) ammunition, someone who produces another person’s valid shotgun certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to allow them to purchase or acquire the ammunition;

 

5) someone who shows that by virtue of the Act they are entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without a certificate

Edited August 27, 2014 by stevo

[rogcal]

One aspect of the requirement to allow a copy of your SGC being made is how safely is that copy kept.

 

If the copies are kept in a locked safe then OK but if not then there is always the chance that an unauthorised person could get hold of them and have knowledge of your address and by virtue of that where you store your firearms.

 

I go to great lengths to ensure that no one knows that I keep guns at home particularly as we live very remotely and could make an ideal target for a late night visit by a gang intent of relieving me of my guns by any means possible.

 

It may be an overreaction on my part but I take I and my family's security and safety very seriously and anything that could increase the risk to that needs to be proportional and I can see no sound reason why a copy should be made and potentially kept in an insecure environment.

 

I would have no problem with a copy being made if my photo, name and address were redacted, leaving only the cert number which should keep the FEO happy as he would be able to cross reference it to my details back at the office.