South Africa - professional hunting

[jayDT10]

Indeed so sir, I'm happy the thread is open as it gives us a chance to engage with the debate. It's been pretty polite so far, personal insults haven't come up, so leave it open, I say

not exactly a debate is it. It's hunting in another country the way they legally do it. What's to debate .

[chrisjpainter]

not exactly a debate is it. It's hunting in another country the way they legally do it. What's to debate .

whether it's ethical. The question of legality isn't the problem for detractors of the original post. It's more about whether it is ethically responsible to have to take four arrows to kill a hippo. Detractors - myself included - are saying this is pretty appalling, although we're only judging on the information given and more would be appreciated to see if it is less malicious than it first appears. there's also a debate as to whether a bow is the right tool for hippo hunting - even in the hands of an expert and a bit about the merits of big game hunting.

 

It might be legal, but we can still disagree on plenty!

[birdsallpl]

not exactly a debate is it. It's hunting in another country the way they legally do it. What's to debate .

I'm not sure where you're coming from but the dictionary definition may help.

'A discussion, involving opposing viewpoints'

[demonwolf444]

This thread really has me thinking about bow hunting and other kinds of hunting so in that way its healthy debate.

 

The reasons i respect bow hunting..

 

I own a bow and arrow and every now and then waste half an hour trying to hit milk jugs with it, its a half baked effort its not a skill I'll likely ever have any desire to become proficient at but it is not something that is straight forward, it requires skill, practice and the build up of a unique muscle memory that is used only for the purpose of bow shooting. Not unlike rifle and shotgun shooting, any idiot can loose a arrow or pull a trigger, but it takes that deeper understanding, skill and passion to know how to really use a piece of kit. So i respect bow hunters for pursuing a different skill set to the same ends.

 

The reason i don't respect bow hunting,

 

The people who are lacking skill and practice give it a bad name or reputation. Though with that in mind i have seen plenty of people with shotguns and rifles who's skills are questionable on a similar level.

 

While i respect the bow hunters, and have no quarrel ( pun not intended ) with big game hunting; like anything else we have to draw a line in the sand. Just as its been proven time and time again that you can drop a deer with a .22lr it is not the best tool for the job. As such when it gets to the point where you have to put more than three shots into an animal its perhaps not the best, most humane, or effective tool for the job.

 

Bow hunting, cross bow hunting, rifle shooting, shotguns, airguns, spears, catapults whatever you have i don't care and so long as you choose your quarry responsibly and use your chosen implement with skill.

 

I think it is easy to take offense to killing a lion or a buffalo in an ecosystem and culture i personally understand little of, and one that i suspect has been largely glorified by countless documentaries. The amount of pressure and emphasis placed on countries on issues of conservation and biodiversity means that hunting in these area's is closely monitored as we know hunting plays into conservation as much there as it does here and there for i feel that while you might not get up on a Saturday and want to go leopard hunting, i don't see how foxing or rabbiting is all that different. Though just as i wouldn't take my air rifle on a driven pheasant shoot; perhaps a bow is not suitable for a safari, at least on the really big game.

 

...

[Rim Fire]

totally agree, why the mods ain't closed this already is beyond me. There have been a few pics in so called sporting pictures that have not been tasteful to which no one batts an eyelid, eg setting a dead fox up behind a rifle ,

( what's that all about

With alot of people not all if you havent got the pics they dont belive you have shot what you said or you just get a thread saying something like . I went out last night and shot a Fox with a pic it makes more intresting

[Rim Fire]

This thread really has me thinking about bow hunting and other kinds of hunting so in that way its healthy debate.

 

The reasons i respect bow hunting..

 

I own a bow and arrow and every now and then waste half an hour trying to hit milk jugs with it, its a half baked effort its not a skill I'll likely ever have any desire to become proficient at but it is not something that is straight forward, it requires skill, practice and the build up of a unique muscle memory that is used only for the purpose of bow shooting. Not unlike rifle and shotgun shooting, any idiot can loose a arrow or pull a trigger, but it takes that deeper understanding, skill and passion to know how to really use a piece of kit. So i respect bow hunters for pursuing a different skill set to the same ends.

 

The reason i don't respect bow hunting,

 

The people who are lacking skill and practice give it a bad name or reputation. Though with that in mind i have seen plenty of people with shotguns and rifles who's skills are questionable on a similar level.

 

While i respect the bow hunters, and have no quarrel ( pun not intended ) with big game hunting; like anything else we have to draw a line in the sand. Just as its been proven time and time again that you can drop a deer with a .22lr it is not the best tool for the job. As such when it gets to the point where you have to put more than three shots into an animal its perhaps not the best, most humane, or effective tool for the job.

 

Bow hunting, cross bow hunting, rifle shooting, shotguns, airguns, spears, catapults whatever you have i don't care and so long as you choose your quarry responsibly and use your chosen implement with skill.

 

I think it is easy to take offense to killing a lion or a buffalo in an ecosystem and culture i personally understand little of, and one that i suspect has been largely glorified by countless documentaries. The amount of pressure and emphasis placed on countries on issues of conservation and biodiversity means that hunting in these area's is closely monitored as we know hunting plays into conservation as much there as it does here and there for i feel that while you might not get up on a Saturday and want to go leopard hunting, i don't see how foxing or rabbiting is all that different. Though just as i wouldn't take my air rifle on a driven pheasant shoot; perhaps a bow is not suitable for a safari, at least on the really big game.

 

...

Well said that man

[Kes]

I appreciate its legal, my perspective is ethical too. If a few well paid for hunts with whatever weapon go to preserve the essential habitat and a greater number of the species then, at least to me it looks better. There was the story an american on here who paid was it $300,000 to kill a rhino, fine if the rhino was going to die anyway/couldnt reproduce etc which, if I recall was the case. I still couldnt shoot big game with a bow because of the suffering (perceived or actual).

I couldnt shoot any animal with a bow, unless my life depended on it, I very much admire the skill and history of toxophily.

I have watched videos on u tube showing "60 kills in 20 minutes" where a compilation of wildboar (pigs), deer, turkeys are shot with a bow. Almost none of the pig/deer sized 'quarry' die instantly, or even within camera shot. In a country where you can get a .5" barratt for hunting; spears, swords, bows are just too cruel.

[norfolk dumpling]

I've family in USA and recent Facebook stuff included son-in-laws brother with a mountain lion (cougar) he had bowhunted. It was attacking stock on his ranch. Bit of a shock when eating my shreddies!

 

He also gets a annual tag for black bear - forget which state but there's one where numbers are controlled because of pressure on townships. Live and let live.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

This thread really has me thinking about bow hunting and other kinds of hunting so in that way its healthy debate.

 

The reasons i respect bow hunting..

 

I own a bow and arrow and every now and then waste half an hour trying to hit milk jugs with it, its a half baked effort its not a skill I'll likely ever have any desire to become proficient at but it is not something that is straight forward, it requires skill, practice and the build up of a unique muscle memory that is used only for the purpose of bow shooting. Not unlike rifle and shotgun shooting, any idiot can loose a arrow or pull a trigger, but it takes that deeper understanding, skill and passion to know how to really use a piece of kit. So i respect bow hunters for pursuing a different skill set to the same ends.

 

The reason i don't respect bow hunting,

 

The people who are lacking skill and practice give it a bad name or reputation. Though with that in mind i have seen plenty of people with shotguns and rifles who's skills are questionable on a similar level.

 

While i respect the bow hunters, and have no quarrel ( pun not intended ) with big game hunting; like anything else we have to draw a line in the sand. Just as its been proven time and time again that you can drop a deer with a .22lr it is not the best tool for the job. As such when it gets to the point where you have to put more than three shots into an animal its perhaps not the best, most humane, or effective tool for the job.

 

Bow hunting, cross bow hunting, rifle shooting, shotguns, airguns, spears, catapults whatever you have i don't care and so long as you choose your quarry responsibly and use your chosen implement with skill.

 

I think it is easy to take offense to killing a lion or a buffalo in an ecosystem and culture i personally understand little of, and one that i suspect has been largely glorified by countless documentaries. The amount of pressure and emphasis placed on countries on issues of conservation and biodiversity means that hunting in these area's is closely monitored as we know hunting plays into conservation as much there as it does here and there for i feel that while you might not get up on a Saturday and want to go leopard hunting, i don't see how foxing or rabbiting is all that different. Though just as i wouldn't take my air rifle on a driven pheasant shoot; perhaps a bow is not suitable for a safari, at least on the really big game.

 

...

 

I totally agree. Shooting with a bow usually means that the 'target' dies through loss of blood, rather than an instant kill.......

 

I met a guy many moons ago from the good old USA. His chum went out in the bow hunting season to bag a bear.

 

He came across a huge bear and whacked it with an arrow. Bear looked round at him, whereupon he whacked it with another arrow.

 

Bear made a run at him so he drops his bow and started to scale a tree. Bear started to climb the tree after him, so he drew his trusty Beretta pistol and at point blank he emptied the clip at the bear (he was somewhat worried at the ferocity of the bear, so he gave it all he had). Bear then realised that it was dead, and dropped out of the tree.

 

Shortly afterwards the local rag ran a headline 'Local hunter shoots record bear with bow!'.

[jayDT10]

With alot of people not all if you havent got the pics they dont belive you have shot what you said or you just get a thread saying something like . I went out last night and shot a Fox with a pic it makes more intresting

yeah that's fine, but why set a fox up behind a rifle looking through a scope . To me that's not funny nor showing respect to something that has just died for the pursuit of pleasure ,

[Dr_Scholl]

 

I totally agree. Shooting with a bow usually means that the 'target' dies through loss of blood, rather than an instant kill.......

 

I met a guy many moons ago from the good old USA. His chum went out in the bow hunting season to bag a bear.

 

He came across a huge bear and whacked it with an arrow. Bear looked round at him, whereupon he whacked it with another arrow.

 

Bear made a run at him so he drops his bow and started to scale a tree. Bear started to climb the tree after him, so he drew his trusty Beretta pistol and at point blank he emptied the clip at the bear (he was somewhat worried at the ferocity of the bear, so he gave it all he had). Bear then realised that it was dead, and dropped out of the tree.

 

Shortly afterwards the local rag ran a headline 'Local hunter shoots record bear with bow!'.

 

It depends on shot placement more than anything.

 

I've taken 2 deer with my bow and both died just as quickly and humanely as any I've taken with my .308. You also have to remember that in many US states you can't hunt with firearms at all for the first part of the season. I live in Virginia. Our deer season starts October 4th, but it's archery only for the first 3 weeks.

[E.w.]

It depends on shot placement more than anything.

 

I've taken 2 deer with my bow and both died just as quickly and humanely as any I've taken with my .308. You also have to remember that in many US states you can't hunt with firearms at all for the first part of the season. I live in Virginia. Our deer season starts October 4th, but it's archery only for the first 3 weeks.

Very well put, I think it's great hunting at its purest form people forget that man is top of the food chain and he hunts because he can end of.

[SEshooter]

 

It depends on shot placement more than anything.

 

I've taken 2 deer with my bow and both died just as quickly and humanely as any I've taken with my .308. You also have to remember that in many US states you can't hunt with firearms at all for the first part of the season. I live in Virginia. Our deer season starts October 4th, but it's archery only for the first 3 weeks.

That is fair enough and requires great skill. I think it is more the hippo and 4 shots that people have a problem with. Like you say, one bow and quick humane kill is good going. The deer is a more suited quary to bow hunting than a hippo.

[E.w.]

That is fair enough and requires great skill. I think it is more the hippo and 4 shots that people have a problem with. Like you say, one bow and quick humane kill is good going. The deer is a more suited quary to bow hunting than a hippo.

That's a very fair comment but how many times have you heard someone say whilst pigeon shooting I hit that hard, the pigeon then goes off to die a painful death, which is the worst the animal that gets finished off or the one that fly and have along painful deaths, I know which I'd rather.

Edited September 24, 2014 by E.w.

[SEshooter]

That's a very fair comment but how many times have you heard someone say whilst pigeon shooting I hit that hard, the pigeon then goes off to die a painful death, which is the worst the animal that gets finished off or the one that fly and have along painful deaths, I know which I'd rather.

I see where your coming from with the pigeons but if it took 4 shots to finish the job I would seriously question myself if I am using the right shells or if I have the skill to shoot pigeons.

9 times out of 10 if a pigeon is hit and not killed it will be brought down in which case it will get a follow up shot or the dog will retrieve and it will be bispatched immediately

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

 

It depends on shot placement more than anything.

 

I've taken 2 deer with my bow and both died just as quickly and humanely as any I've taken with my .308. You also have to remember that in many US states you can't hunt with firearms at all for the first part of the season. I live in Virginia. Our deer season starts October 4th, but it's archery only for the first 3 weeks.

 

I can see where you are coming from, and I have to admire your skill, but....

 

The 'average' rifle shot using a .308 would rapidly acquire the skill to kill a deer in a humane manner, whereas the weeks/months/years practice to do the same with a bow would not be done by an 'average' bow shooter. It's one helluva learning curve with a live animal as part of the learning curve.

 

Joe public over here would quite rightly get upset by the sight of a deer running round with arrows sticking out of it (there are pics of this as a result of 'expert' poachers!).

[Harnser]

I have seen bow hunting first hand in the states . My cousins are all avid hunters and use the bow ,handgun and shotgun for deer . I have seen several deer taken by the bow in up state New York . The modern compound bow with broad head arrows in the right hands are as deadly to deer as a centre fire rifle or slug gun .

Bow hunting is more skill full than hunting with a rifle ,because you have to get in closer . Must bow hunting is done from a tree stand and you have to be a practiced archer to be successful ,more so than with a rifle or slug gun .

All the deer except one that I saw taken with the bow were bled out and dead within two hundred yards from the place that they were shot . The odd one was never found . The broad head arrows cause enormous wound canals and a deer will bleed out very ,very quickly .

What I saw of bow hunting deer ,was that it was humane and the deer were dead very quickly . I was never tempted to have ago myself because I didn't have the skills to effect a clean kill with the bow ,nor did I have the confidence to use a bow .

Having seen bow hunting first hand I am convinced that the bow is a very serious tool for deer . As for using a bow on hippos I am still of the opinion that to use this tool on an animal that big is nothing short of cruelty . Incidently one of the most potent tools that I have shot deer with in the states is the .44 mag am pistol , instant kill at 50 yards with no shoot through , devastating tool for deer .

 

Harnser

[Imperfection]

I dont see anything wrong. Provided its legal and the animals were being culled for a genuine reason with the fee's being pumped back into the economy-where's the harm. I shoot a lot of rabbits which is a cull and these are just simply bigger!

 

I'd do it if i could afford it.

[holloway]

Very well put, I think it's great hunting at its purest form people forget that man is top of the food chain and he hunts because he can end of.

Good point............., next thing on his agenda is to stone one to death.!!

[Traztaz]

Guys, I would like to Point out one Thing here that no one has seemed to think about as far as I can see. Four shots might well Sound like alot, but go and look up footage of rhino, Hippo , Lion and Buffalo Shooting, this almost allways takes two or three shots from a very large caliber rifle...................the bow used 4 shots, who is to say the animal was not dead on ist feet and running on pure Adrenalin? It is very easy to critisize what you do not understand. I was very sceptical about bow hunting untill I experienced it, I did not have a go myself as I do not posses the skill set, but when I saw how it deals with deer...............well then I understood. The Argument about bleeding out is also a non starter, as what do you think a deer does when you pump a bullet through ist heart and lung, same old same.

[sitsinhedges]

Good point............., next thing on his agenda is to stone one to death.!!

 

Or my wifes farts. They would stop an elephant in its tracks

[Scully]

That's a very fair comment but how many times have you heard someone say whilst pigeon shooting I hit that hard, the pigeon then goes off to die a painful death, which is the worst the animal that gets finished off or the one that fly and have along painful deaths, I know which I'd rather.

I think the point is though, that even though we all know there is a chance of wounding, the shot is taken with the most suitable tool for the job. This wasn't the case with the hippo.

[E.w.]

I think the point is though, that even though we all know there is a chance of wounding, the shot is taken with the most suitable tool for the job. This wasn't the case with the hippo.

At the end of the day it's a kill, we can all go on about cruelty in some people's eyes but the majority of the people in the uk would consider us hunters all Cruel people that killed anything.

[Harnser]

At the end of the day it's a kill, we can all go on about cruelty in some people's eyes but the majority of the people in the uk would consider us hunters all Cruel people that killed anything.

Yes . But us shooting men do (or should) know the difference between cruelty and killing game cleanly .

 

Harnser

[E.w.]

Yes . But us shooting men do (or should) know the difference between cruelty and killing game cleanly .

Harnser

We do in the uk lets not judge what people do in there own country.