wymberley Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 If this is correct,then it would would seem that cockpit access modifications designed to enhance aircraft and passenger safety by preventing 'external' (for the want of a better word) hijacking, unfortunately was instrumental in permitting this awful 'internal' event to occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) If this is correct,then it would would seem that cockpit access modifications designed to enhance aircraft and passenger safety by preventing 'external' (for the want of a better word) hijacking, unfortunately was instrumental in permitting this awful 'internal' event to occur. Yes they were saying that American procedure is different, when a pilot leaves the cockpit another crew member has to go and be locked in with the other pilot. Would a female flight attendant, most of whom seem to be chosen for being quite small, have the strength or the know how to overcome a determined nutcase? Edited March 26, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sian Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 No more probably than a male one to be honest. I doubt they would be able to realise if a nutter were messing with the buttons quick enough. Maybe its time that pilots are locked in for the duration of the flight and have potties to pee in and refreshments put through a hatch - far fetched maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes they were saying that American procedure is different, when a pilot leaves the cockpit another crew member has to go and be locked in with the other pilot. Would a female flight attendant, most of whom seem to be chosen for being quite small, have the strength or the know how to overcome a determined nutcase? She only has to be determined enough to open the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 No more probably than a male one to be honest. I doubt they would be able to realise if a nutter were messing with the buttons quick enough. Maybe its time that pilots are locked in for the duration of the flight and have potties to pee in and refreshments put through a hatch - far fetched maybe. In 'the good old days' there were two pilots a flight engineer and maybe a navigator. The Nav and Eng have ben replaced by computers. The pilots are not really needed any more - The technology is there for pilotless flight. In this instance the pilotless flight would have been safer. Cheapest option is probably to have three pilots but the airlines wont like it. The third guy doesn't have to be fully trained - Just know enough to know what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 She only has to be determined enough to open the door. Good point and since you are/were a pilot how could one, in extremis disable the pilot in such circumstances - gas acitvated by the door bypass mechanism ? I just cant get over how the excluded pilot must have felt, or the other passengers as they knew they were headed for the ground with no chance to escape. The relatives must be hoping against hope that they didnt know. 30 seconds of hell is enough, never mind 8 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Good point and since you are/were a pilot how could one, in extremis disable the pilot in such circumstances - gas acitvated by the door bypass mechanism ? I just cant get over how the excluded pilot must have felt, or the other passengers as they knew they were headed for the ground with no chance to escape. The relatives must be hoping against hope that they didnt know. 30 seconds of hell is enough, never mind 8 minutes. You really have to stop and think long on this. Any train driver is on his own in the cab - always. The same applies to anyone driving any vehicle. The results would not be as spectacular and tragic as this but would be to the dependants of those in the other vehicles or trains. Job to know where to stop. Edited March 26, 2015 by Grandalf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 You really have to stop and think long on this. Any train driver is on his own in the cab - always. The same applies to anyone driving any vehicle. The results would not be as spectacular and tragic as this but would be to the dependants of those in the other vehicles or trains. Job to know where to stop. True. Staggering that anyone could think of sacrificing 149 lives though simply to end his own. Certainly some checks and balances may be needed, You may know but, apart from the Malaysian flight and one other I heard about, these three are the only flights (we know of) ending with a pilot suicide - how many million flight hours later? Terrible waste of life - I dont want to see the co-pilots name just to deny him linkage to so many brave and innocent people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 They should install lavatories on every flight deck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 All modern jets have an additional means of access to the cockpit to prevent this kind of thing-the procedure is not advertised for obvious reasons but senior crew members could gain entry in a couple of minutes asaik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) True. Staggering that anyone could think of sacrificing 149 lives though simply to end his own. Certainly some checks and balances may be needed, You may know but, apart from the Malaysian flight and one other I heard about, these three are the only flights (we know of) ending with a pilot suicide - how many million flight hours later? Terrible waste of life - I dont want to see the co-pilots name just to deny him linkage to so many brave and innocent people. 3? sadly more than that which we actually know of, if troubled why not just sort yourself out rather than take out families and kids? http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/ Edited March 26, 2015 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 3? sadly more than that which we actually know of, if troubled why not just sort yourself out rather than take out families and kids? http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/ Sadly seems to be more popular recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Talking to my son about this today, he is a psychologist working in Bristol, he reckons it could be about control. People with very controlling personalities do unfathomable things because they get the ultimate sense of control from doing them. In which case he wouldn't have appeared in any way abnormal and probably didn't plan it, just saw a chance and took it. Still comes down to fruitcake in my terminology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 All modern jets have an additional means of access to the cockpit to prevent this kind of thing-the procedure is not advertised for obvious reasons but senior crew members could gain entry in a couple of minutes asaik. Wrong..... Its a system in place to prevent access, in a Hijack situation any Cabin Crew member taken would most likely give up this information and hence, your statement is incorrect as this defeats the object of the exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Wrong..... Its a system in place to prevent access, in a Hijack situation any Cabin Crew member taken would most likely give up this information and hence, your statement is incorrect as this defeats the object of the exercise. Maybe there's an entrance round the back. It matter not, the fact is, if the pilot was intent on committing suicide he could have done it without taking other lives, for that reason he gets no pity from me, only disgust for his selfish attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 They should install lavatories on every flight deck. I once forgot to empty the wee bag on a Camberra. After the next flight the pilot came looking for me. Appropriately, I hid in the bogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 All modern jets have an additional means of access to the cockpit to prevent this kind of thing-the procedure is not advertised for obvious reasons but senior crew members could gain entry in a couple of minutes asaik. experts say not KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Wrong..... Its a system in place to prevent access, in a Hijack situation any Cabin Crew member taken would most likely give up this information and hence, your statement is incorrect as this defeats the object of the exercise. +1 The baddies could have overpowered the cabin staff (or the other pilot as he returns from the loo). So it can be firmly locked (usually electronically but sometimes mechanically) from inside. The electronic control switch has three positions - Off, Norm and Lock. That says it all. The door is bullet proof and that says a lot too. The door is designed to keep people OUT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 You really have to stop and think long on this. Any train driver is on his own in the cab - always. The same applies to anyone driving any vehicle. The results would not be as spectacular and tragic as this but would be to the dependants of those in the other vehicles or trains. Job to know where to stop. True enough, t least the American system covers the possibility of the flying pilot becoming suddenly incapacitated. I would imagine though, some shrink could offer an opinion that as opposed to this incident where the pilot was completely isolated, having the company of someone you know might just persuade someone so minded not to do so. The only alternative to most UK passengers is a fortnight in Skeggy. RIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Maybe there's an entrance round the back. It matter not, the fact is, if the pilot was intent on committing suicide he could have done it without taking other lives, for that reason he gets no pity from me, only disgust for his selfish attitude. surely its not beyond airlines to ensure this thing cannot happen, yet still keep wrongdoers out, as for the #### who murdered 150 people including 3 babies and 16 children there are no words to describe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 All modern jets have an additional means of access to the cockpit to prevent this kind of thing-the procedure is not advertised for obvious reasons but senior crew members could gain entry in a couple of minutes asaik. The system for re entry depends on the remaining crew member at the controls being incapacitated / of no malicious intent. The timed deadlock which might have allowed this to happen is installed for reasons of preventing flight crew entering under duress from hostile passengers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Some procedural changes made to some Uk airlines already as a result. One wonders why the possibility had not occurred before ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Access to the cockpit can be made via a keypad code-however this can be over ridden by crew members inside the cockpit for various lengths of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) Well we found out about our airlines new procedure through the bbc news although a document has been printed on the subject. I can't wait to try it out: "hello Donna" "Hello Captain Lugton, I'm just here to make sure you don't go loco and murder us all. Anyway how are the wife and kids......" Another useless knee jerk reaction that is so common in today's society. Edited March 26, 2015 by Laird Lugton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longbower Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 We may never know why. Maybe that information died with him. Its all very very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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