Durham are at it again :(

[phaedra1106]

Just when they appear to have dropped the extra medical forms as a requirement they've now added another 2 pages to the official Form 201 :(

 

1st Page asks for the details of other residents at the address

 

2nd Page asks for details of shooting permissions and/or club membership with signatures being required from the land owner/s and/or the club secretary

 

https://www.durham.police.uk/Information-and-advice/firearms-and-firearms-licensing/Documents/Application%20Form%20-%20Combined%20Form%20201%20and%20201A%20rev%2012-2015.pdf

 

A fellow shooter and RFD has just submitted his renewal on the standard HO form and Durham say they have returned it insisting that he must use the Durham form instead, he's refused so just waiting to see what happens next.

 

It's seriously time that BASC, the NRA or SACS etc. had something done about this constant practice of adding extra hurdles to what should be a standard procedure whichever force you are under.

 

 

Lincs have now started insisting on shooters providing GPs medical reports with their application/renewal,

 

"ANNOUNCEMENT: Medical Declarations (updated 06/01/2016)

If you suffer from a relevant medical condition, you must obtain a medical report from your General Practitioner and submit this alongside your application form. This will assist the timely progress of your application, by preventing delays with the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Unit requesting a report after receiving the application.

If you have any queries and are unsure whether to obtain a medical report to submit with your application, please check with the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Unit. The original report signed by the doctor (not a copy) must be included with your renewal/grant application.

Lincolnshire Police will no longer request or pay the costs for medical reports. We are now seeking applicants to obtain medical reports only as described to determine your fitness to hold a licence. Therefore, any cost incurred must be agreed and settled between you and your General Practitioner."

 

http://www.lincs.police.uk/services/firearms-licensing/

Edited January 14, 2016 by phaedra1106

[Guest cookoff013]

That is bad news.

[VicW]

The last time I had any dealings with Lincs Firearms Licensing two years ago it was on this very subject.

At the time their point was that where they were asking GP's themselves for medical reports for whatever reason and they were being charged up to £100 a time for the letter.

Obviously the licence fee couldn't stand that expense so this is their answer.

Be warned, my GP hadn't replied in eight weeks despite repeated hastening attempts.

It could be an idea to take a pre-printed letter to an appointment so that the GP only has to approve and sign it.

 

Vic.

[Davyo]

Durham are also pressing for Ds1 ^ Ds2 as i was advised when i handed my FAC / SGC in a few weeks back after deciding to retire from shooting.I had a conversation with one of the officers who said loads of changers are in the horizion and in perticular what she refered to as assosiation checks.What she ment by that was they are paying very close attension to who you associate with.

[phaedra1106]

I would assume that her name started with an L ?

[robbiep]

Durham do, very carefully, point out that the 'additional pages' are not mandatory.

 

For example, where they ask for other residents, they say that : PLEASE NOTE: every effort is made to ensure each application is processed with the upmost efficiency and the provision of this information will speed up the process.

 

Again, for the land/club forms, they state that : PLEASE NOTE:- To support us in processing your application please complete Part A and Part B

 

So that's all fine. However, if they then refuse to process forms that do not have those sections completed, then they are going beyond what they are legally allowed to do.

 

I've forwarded a link to the Durham webpage to Mike at BASC. He acts as secretary for a target club, so I'd imagine he'll be bouncing at that part of the 'additional' form.

[FOXHUNTER1]

Cant see the problem with disclosing all residents at the property or providing details of shooting permission. Nothing more than you would expect I think.

 

My renewal is due in a year and would expect a prompt renewal.

[Konnie]

Just got my FAC/SGC from Lincs police a week before Christmas, had no problems, as regards extra info or payments, when did this all start.

[phaedra1106]

Robbie, while they do point out they are not mandatory they have already returned a renewal submitted on the proper HO Form 201 for not having the extra pages included with it and told the applicant they will only accept the "Durham version" of Form 201.

Edited January 14, 2016 by phaedra1106

[Bazooka Joe]

1st Page asks for the details of other residents at the address

2nd Page asks for details of shooting permissions and/or club membership with signatures being required from the land owner/s and/or the club secretary

 

 

They wanted to know that a year & a half back at my renewal for my S/C, along with who visited/lived in my house/boyfriends names/DOB's etc, needless to say they never got it.

As for the FAC, just renewed, the FEO said the medical would be mandatory by the next renewal.

[Guest stevo]

Well best BASC gets off there backsides then .

Edited January 14, 2016 by stevo

[kaunda]

Ref Lincs - mine renewed end of December without problem or question,new procedure would appear to have been introduced 1.1.2016,

As regards the Forms 201 etc,if these are officially approved Home Office Forms,then local constabularies cannot alter or change them,any such must come from the Home Office ? If anything needs sorting then it is our licensing laws and procedures.The Law applies to the whole of England ( and Wales ),I do not see why there cannot be a common application across the country and not at the local whim of individual Chief Constables or lesser beings.

[Bobby199]

Can David BASC's comment on this?

(OR is there any way of bringing it to his attention?)

[robbiep]

Can David BASC's comment on this?

(OR is there any way of bringing it to his attention?)

You are aware that this thread was started at 7pm ?

 

And that I have (as already mentioned in this thread) emailed BASC's firearms dept about it ?

 

This is a hobby for us. For David it is work, and I'm sure he doesn't work 24/7

[mossy835]

there just trying to bring in there own rules,and should not get away with it.basc should not let them get away with it.

[oowee]

I had to submit a 646 form with my application signed by the farmer. I was told that subsequent land could be called in or send more forms. I sent half a dozen 646 forms to be called and told they could not process them without a signature. I asked for them to be returned and I would call in. I was told that as they had now seen the forms they could not take a call to check the land as they had seen the forms. I submitted a formal complaint. I then received a call to say that all of the land was cleared with the exception of one piece and the signature requirement was to make it easier to check the land.

The response I have received does not directly address the issues that i raised and my next course of action (if i wanted to take it forward) would be the police complaints authority. My new Chief Constable is Andy Marsh so that may help.

[David BASC]

On it - if you need to get in touch with me or bring something to my attention then the best way is by email. I don't get on forums 24/7 but do keep an eye on emails from around 7am to 10pm

David

[panoma1]

I'm sick of hearing of these examples of various police forces acting beyond their authority, it's about time individual police officers were held to account and disciplined instead of when caught out they withdraw but are currently given no sanction to prevent them trying again in the future on the basis of "never mind, better luck next time"

The police keep pushing and every time some certificate holders comply........then through what can be described as "custom and practise" it becomes compulsory! Outrageous!

[David BASC]

I understand fully your point, which is why its so important the shooters alert us to any examples of bad practice so we can address it.

[robbiep]

I'm sick of hearing of these examples of various police forces acting beyond their authority, it's about time individual police officers were held to account and disciplined instead of when caught out they withdraw but are currently given no sanction to prevent them trying again in the future on the basis of "never mind, better luck next time"

The police keep pushing and every time some certificate holders comply........then through what can be described as "custom and practise" it becomes compulsory! Outrageous!

I must admit, I am too.

If it was possible under any legislation, I'd like to see BASC (or one of the other organisations) take a police force to court or a judicial review when they overstep the mark

[Bobby199]

Hi David, thank you for getting onto this, but i fear that the problem is that many new shooters or those who are not confident with the system do not want to kick up a fuss (scared of impact upon aplication) and so do not.

 

I understand fully your point, which is why its so important the shooters alert us to any examples of bad practice so we can address it.

 

Sorry David I did not mean for you to see this last night, but was asking if there was any way of 'tagging' you in the post to bring it to your attention.

Thanks again for all of your help.

On it - if you need to get in touch with me or bring something to my attention then the best way is by email. I don't get on forums 24/7 but do keep an eye on emails from around 7am to 10pm

David

 

Thanks Again,

James

[old'un]

It looks like from reading the home office guide for firearms licensing law, the chief of police of any force area can at his discretion add other forms.

Interesting part 10.51 about retaining your original certificate and sending a photocopy copy back for renewal

 

 

10.28

Section 27 of the 1968 Act sets out the criteria for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate. This, however, does allow chief officers of police discretion to make further

enquiries into applications should they wish to do so. To do this, forces can use their own forms in addition to those which are specified in the legislation. Such forms, though, are

non-statutory and there is no obligation for applicants to complete them in addition to

those which are legally required. Where non-statutory forms are used for this purpose, they

should be clearly marked to indicate their status. Non-statutory forms should be avoided,

but if they are required for obtaining further specific information, they should be clearly

marked to indicate their status – “whilst it is not a legal requirement to complete this form,

completion may expedite the application. Any person making any statement on this form

which they know or believe to be untrue commits and offence”.

 

10.51

If a certificate expir

es before a renewed certificate has been issued and the certificate

holder has behaved in a reasonable manner returning the forms in good time, a temporary

permit (section 7 Permit) should be issued by default. With regard to renewal, the applicant

may submit a photocopy of their certificate and retain the expiring certificate in order to be

able to buy ammunition.

[Katzenjammer]

I understand fully your point, which is why its so important the shooters alert us to any examples of bad practice so we can address it.

Funny how they will rant and rave on any forum and not just this one but won't send an email to the relevant body who can or may be able to do something about it.

 

Another route members may like to bear in mind is this but I would advise that your case and background etc needs to be cast iron for obvious reasons albeit that the final outcome may be reached more speedily or not if the application is in its proper place in the queue. But it may help resolve situations where hoops are seemingly being put in the way.

 

These are Prime Ministers Cases, Ministers Cases, MP'S Cases and suchlike. When civil or public servants got these in my days in the Civil Service fingers were pulled out etc. These are cases where individuals have written direct to Ministers etc demanding action or suchlike. It's a few years since I worked in the theatre of operations where we got them but I imagine it still goes on! Running round like blue based flies!!!!

 

All Ministers, civil or public servants have to act without fear or favour of course but they have to act within the law they are enacting. The problem arises in areas of printed guidance and interpretation of those laws. Any changes normally have to be examined by a policy section and solicitors to ensure it is within the law/act. But be warned - that is where delays can occur!

 

The problem here is too many cooks etc - it's time for a national licensing authority all singing from the same hymnbook.

[David BASC]

If members of the forum send me a PM, then this comes up on my work email, which I have access to via my mobile phone

 

I appreciate that new and indeed older shooters may have issues about contacting their FEO, but that's what we are here for, to try and help individuals, or indeed when something like additional forms start cropping up, we can then target the FLD in question.

 

Additional forms are not required under the Act - and there is no obligation under the Act for them to be filled it.

 

Frankly with delays all over the place for applications and renewals, it beggars belief then some licencing teams then add to the administrative burden!

[old'un]

If members of the forum send me a PM, then this comes up on my work email, which I have access to via my mobile phone

 

I appreciate that new and indeed older shooters may have issues about contacting their FEO, but that's what we are here for, to try and help individuals, or indeed when something like additional forms start cropping up, we can then target the FLD in question.

 

Additional forms are not required under the Act - and there is no obligation under the Act for them to be filled it.

 

Frankly with delays all over the place for applications and renewals, it beggars belief then some licencing teams then add to the administrative burden!

If a chief constable in your area decides that in the interest of public safety he/she requires this additional information it seems he/she is perfectly within the law, although it is not a legal requirement,

I think that if you challenged your area chief constable you might just find a brick wall and a dogmatic attitude towards you, and dare I say it deliberate delaying of your renewal/grant of certificate or even refusal, now as to whether a court challenge to these additional forms (requirements) would work is another question and something BASC legal department could possibly look at, I think there now needs to be some sort of move by our representatives (legal) that brings ALL police forces into line and not just targeting the FLD in question.