d foxxer Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 If anyone believes the governments statistics regarding unemployment they probably still believe in the tooth fairy! We don't "need" cheap foreign workers, they are "wanted" by employers simply because they undercut our own workforce and drive wages down, they work for half (a kings ransom in the former eastern block) the wage a British worker could afford to work for......all cheap foreign labour is there for is to give employers bigger profits! The less wages the employer pays the bigger their profits for them! Why do you think many businesses supports the EU "remain" side?...............An unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour! There is no shortage of low skilled British workers to fill jobs.........the only thing that is in short supply is decent wages for our own people to live a decent life relative to the cost of living in the this country. Why, in this country are the rich getting richer whilst the poor are unemployed, que at food banks or are on benefits? And no I don't include those for which claiming benefits are a lifestyle choice!........it is because of the covert government policy to redistribute wealth to the rich, achieved by forcing the cost of labour (the poor) down by bringing in cheap foreign labour.......to satisfy demands from employers (the rich) for more and bigger profits! well said mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Do these "faceless unelected EU bureaucrats" that apparently control our lives actually exist or are they just a strawman argument to add to the long list of logical fallacies being bandied about? Can anyone provide any evidence? European Commission , The Five Presidents Report, “Completing Europe’s Economic and Monetary Union”, 22 June 2015. A report by Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, in close cooperation with Donald Tusk (European Council President), Jeroen Dijsselbloem(Eurogroup President), Mario Draghi (ECB President) and Martin Schulz (European Parliament President). Did you vote for any of these "presidents"? I know I didn`t. Truth be told I`ve only ever heard of two of the five. http://forbritain.org/economists/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/12/Perspective-81.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 European Commission , The Five Presidents Report, “Completing Europe’s Economic and Monetary Union”, 22 June 2015. A report by Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, in close cooperation with Donald Tusk (European Council President), Jeroen Dijsselbloem(Eurogroup President), Mario Draghi (ECB President) and Martin Schulz (European Parliament President). Did you vote for any of these "presidents"? I know I didn`t. Truth be told I`ve only ever heard of two of the five. http://forbritain.org/economists/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/12/Perspective-81.pdf You also did not vote for Sir Jeremy Heywood, John Manzoni, Melanie Dawes or John Kingman etc and they run your life and mine on a much more direct daily basis as heads of our own Civil Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 You also did not vote for Sir Jeremy Heywood, John Manzoni, Melanie Dawes or John Kingman etc and they run your life and mine on a much more direct daily basis as heads of our own Civil Service.Maybe so but if what you say is correct (I have little knowledge of civil service) do 2 wrongs make a right? Of its causing damage to the country and hard working families etc I'd get rid of them to given the chance, I know the EU is which is why given the chance I'm deffinatley voting out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Do the civil service create laws? Last time I looked they were subject to ministerial/ government direction. I seem to remember we plebs have a say in who gets to play king of the castle. Not so with the deliberately anti democratic EU. I have already voted out, I'm sick of the rampant greed by those at the top, be they in the boardroom, banking sector or Westminster. Atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Off on a slightly different line, has anyone seen in the news about four Syrian refugees in this country r****g two 14yr old girls... Turns out the bbc failed to report on it.. And did Nigel say it would happen. And the bishop say ot wouldn't... happened in Newcastle near st james park stadium... This happened in May! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Do these "faceless unelected EU bureaucrats" that apparently control our lives actually exist or are they just a strawman argument to add to the long list of logical fallacies being bandied about? Can anyone provide any evidence? Can you provide sources to substantiate that statement or is this another one of your strawman arguments,can you provide evidence they dont exist ? I know you are much cleverer than me,because half the time I cant even understand what you are on about. But the problem is I dont think many other people on here do either,and thats because you dont make a rational argument. If you dont like what is said,you either ,stick your fingers in your ears and say " LA LA LA LA LA " or ask people to provide 'evidence' or 'proof' of what they say. Anyone can disagree with anyone on here,but you disagree with everyone! Which in my book makes you sir ,a troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Off on a slightly different line, has anyone seen in the news about four Syrian refugees in this country r****g two 14yr old girls... Turns out the bbc failed to report on it.. And did Nigel say it would happen. And the bishop say ot wouldn't... happened in Newcastle near st james park stadium... This happened in May!It was in the daily mail,makes my blood boil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 It was in the daily mail,makes my blood boil. 'm sure it'd make anyone's blood boil, but it has nothing to do with the EU or shooting so not sure why it was brought up on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 'm sure it'd make anyone's blood boil, but it has nothing to do with the EU or shooting so not sure why it was brought up on this thread. Errrr its syrian refugees we accepted to take in as part of the EU lets save the world *****! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Rewulf, the fallacious part of your post (and what I was trying to show you) is that you cannot prove a negative. To try and demonstrate that to you, one of the most most well-known and light-hearted reductio-ad-absurdium counter arguments is Pastafarianism and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can you prove that a Monster made of spaghetti and capable of flight doesn't exist? Then I take it we can sign you up for Pastafarianism? Bertrand Russell's "celestial teapot" is another example. From the Wikipedia entry (if you feel I'm just trolling) : "An argument that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon those who make unfalsifiable claims, not on those who reject them." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Rewulf, the fallacious part of your post (and what I was trying to show you) is that you cannot prove a negative. To try and demonstrate that to you, one of the most most well-known and light-hearted reductio-ad-absurdium counter arguments is Pastafarianism and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Can you prove that a Monster made of spaghetti and capable of flight doesn't exist? Then I take it we can sign you up for Pastafarianism? I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Any one see that the EU has spent £600,000 commissioning a report on firearm control and gun crime ? Apparently the money went to an anti gin lobby who if fact concluded that there was no coronation between private legally held guns and criminal activity . Still Those nice EU people have never let facts or in fact there own rules stand in the way of making decisions on" our behalf" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Errrr its syrian refugees we accepted to take in as part of the EU lets save the world *****! Errrr, I think you'll find that it is the UN, not the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I think Granett is a lawyer or public servant or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Do the civil service create laws? Last time I looked they were subject to ministerial/ government direction. I seem to remember we plebs have a say in who gets to play king of the castle. Not so with the deliberately anti democratic EU. I have already voted out, I'm sick of the rampant greed by those at the top, be they in the boardroom, banking sector or Westminster. Atb Have you never watched "yes minister" on the telly? Create no......influence certainly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) I have watched that program, and enjoyed it immensely. I also have a friend who was a real "Bernard" around the same era as the program portrayed. I understand full well the reality of the Whitehall machine. Conversely, how much influence do you think anyone has over the unelected, unaccountable and secretive commissioners in Brussels? When push comes to shove and a minister's constituency voters say jump, then jump it is. Self preservation is a powerful incentive to political animals, and one which even the Whitehall mandarin's can't stand against. Atb Edited June 13, 2016 by achosenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I have watched that program, and enjoyed it immensely. I also have a friend who was a real "Bernard" around the same era as the program portrayed. I understand full well the reality of the Whitehall machine. Conversely, how much influence do you think anyone has over the unelected, unaccountable and secretive commissioners in Brussels? When push comes to shove and a minister's constituency voters say jump, then jump it is. Self preservation is a powerful incentive to political animals, and one which even the Whitehall mandarin's can't stand against. Atb As you say self preservation is a powerful incentive in politics, so is power, personal advancement, money and influence.......influence is a commodity, it can be and is bought, sold and bartered! Cash for questions! MP sponsorship! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parapilot Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I can't understand why 50% want in. This should be a no brainier. Just hope the right thing happenes and we vote out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I can't understand why 50% want in. This should be a no brainier. Just hope the right thing happenes and we vote out. I imagine it's a lower percentage that actively want in, but many more that fear leaving. I also think many people would never vote out because the associate that with Farage, UKIP, EDL and generally the far right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) I imagine it's a lower percentage that actively want in, but many more that fear leaving. I also think many people would never vote out because the associate that with Farage, UKIP, EDL and generally the far right.I think you are right a high percentage who will vote to remain will have been scared into it....but I also think you may be surprised (or maybe not?) how many ordinary people have far right thoughts! The law in the UK prohibits discriminatory behaviour.........but the law cannot yet legislate against an individual's discriminatory thoughts and feelings! Then again is a "remain"..........or an "out" vote discriminatory? I think not! Edited June 13, 2016 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I imagine it's a lower percentage that actively want in, but many more that fear leaving. I also think many people would never vote out because the associate that with Farage, UKIP, EDL and generally the far right. Exactly. A thought that is actively used to counter many leave arguments. Seriously though,do they think voting to leave means ushering in a full nazi style government on the 24th June? And I am sick to the back teeth of hearing the word 'xenophobia' bandied about by the Bremainers,its an insult to the many ethnic groups who want to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 My main objection to the EU is the number of immigrants, but we get more from outside the EU. If any government was serious about reducing the number of immigrants they could do so with no comeback from the EU. Just stop immigrants from Asia or Africa. Personally I have no problem with European immigrants its immigrants from other parts of the world I dislike such as Pakistan or West Africa when they do not integrate with UK society. I am know a lot of Polish immigrants and they are great people. And none of them have brought their elderly relatives here. They make very low demands on the NHS because they are not of an age when health problems start to affect us , buy pay a full wack of taxes into it that most will never see any benefit from as they intend to go back to Poland when they have made some money , in the same way when we had a sick economic country back in the 1970s and many English lads went out to Germany to work in construction , but when they made their money and the benefits of the EU to our economies filtered into this country they came home. Read any economic text book and they all say that the major reason the UK economies has improved is because of the EU its increased trading rights and direct grants. My town got a huge grant to refurbish the town centre from the EU and it revived a dead town into a thriving shopping area. Shooting is likely to suffer badly if we pull out of the EU. Most of the grants farmers come from the EU for projects such as HLS. Almost every farm in my area has grass strips, newly planted hedges and shelter belts all funded by the EU. If we leave the EU farmers will be competing on world markets and will need to be even more efficient and will not be able to afford the luxury of such conservation measures that are so vital for our game birds. Will the UK government step in and replace the funds, I very much doubt it as at the moment they are doing everything possible to get out of conservation grants. As one government minister say a few years ago “ if some people want to see butterflies and birds in the fields then they should pay extra for farm products to cover the conservation needs. I care about my grandchildren and do not want them to go back to the sort of England I lived in back in the 1970s. This country has done very well out of the EU. Yes it has its faults , but to leave would be like cutting off my nose to spite my face. A few east European immigrants extra is a price worth paying for the standard of living we enjoy today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) One of the big problems of this debate is our politicians , Boris Johnson, Cameron, Duncan Smith , Gould and others make a statement which they know to be a down right lie and every one believes it without checking. For example it’s stated by a previous post that the unemployment rate in Spain is 47%. It’s not its 21% and declining fast http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/unemployment-rate. One of the biggest lies is coming from the mouth of Boris Johnson when he claims the EU is undemocratic. The EU commissioners do not make new laws , they can only propose them It has to go to the EU parliament made up of EMPs which many in this country have voted for and the council of ministers which include UK cabinet ministers that were voted in as British MPs . The council of ministers and EMPs can then amend, approve or reject the new law. The commissioners are similar to our Civil Service. http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm Do not believe a word the politicians say research it yourself and I suspect many will be surprised what the real truth is. Edited June 17, 2016 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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