Anyone else still undecided?

[Good shot?]

I can`t decide if to go down first thing in the morning on voting day or later at night to vote to leave.

 

All OUT voters should go at the end of the voting session, to put the frighteners on LEAVE as they are being counted.

Personally I cannot wait to go first thing in the morning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Good shot?

[achosenman]

I agree. The good thing is, that out of all the people that I have personally spoken to, only around 10% are going to vote to remain.

I have a feeling that it might be a surprisingly big majority that ends up voting to leave.

 

Unfortunately at my work place the vast majority of 20-38yo are voting in. There are literally several thousand of them, I guess its all about the circles you move in.

[subsonicnat]

I for one only have to remember the LOOK on Camerons face when trying to get something out of the EU.

If he had got anything he would be Bragging about it now..

They talk of letting more in as it is good for the economy and it is for your future childrens sake.

I believe in 2 generations the vote by Muslims will be over whelming for women to wear Burkahs.

You may well laugh,, They have already tried it in the schools,Religion,etc.

I think I AM thinking of the next generation and beyond..

At the rate of people coming here,we will lose any identity that we have..

And useing the poor woman who was murdered in my opinion was a total disgrace,and shows how low these people will stoop.. I am OUT.

[wymberley]

And useing the poor woman who was murdered in my opinion was a total disgrace,and shows how low these people will stoop.. I am OUT.

This.

 

I bitterly regret having to say that this simply reinforces how brutal and underhand politics actually are. We shooters and the politicians said everyone would wait for the release of the Cullen Report post Dunblane. This out of respect for all affected by that tragedy. Well, whose respect simply melted away in the face of political expediency on that occasion too?

[Dave-G]

I for one only have to remember the LOOK on Camerons face when trying to get something out of the EU.

If he had got anything he would be Bragging about it now..

They talk of letting more in as it is good for the economy and it is for your future childrens sake.

I believe in 2 generations the vote by Muslims will be over whelming for women to wear Burkahs.

You may well laugh,, They have already tried it in the schools,Religion,etc.

I think I AM thinking of the next generation and beyond..

At the rate of people coming here,we will lose any identity that we have..

And useing the poor woman who was murdered in my opinion was a total disgrace,and shows how low these people will stoop.. I am OUT.

That's along the lines of my thinking..

[Les*1066]

No indecision for me either.

 

It's OUT !

[longspoon]

OUT ! Give me back my country

[Jaymo]

No indecision for me......

 

IN.

 

Sorry boys, but not just as I live in France, but for many social, economic reason and my pension ( suppose that's economic too)

 

Whilst I can see the ideology of the 'Great Britain' that you wish for, I also believe in the valued opinions ( plus my own) of what a Strong economy really means to the UK

You can have the whole Island to yourselves but if you can't afford to import electricity, food and commodities it's going to be pretty bleak.

And yes, I do fear mass redundancies too.

 

Comments about the rich not caring about the NHS is ********, I have Private Medical indeed- however in an Emergency we all turn to the NHS, for which I'm truly grateful as it saved the lives of both of my boys.

But a country in a predicted recession ( even Boris is now apologising in advance in cas it happens) will do NO ONE any favours.

 

But either way, I have enjoyed reading some of the post for the National Front,,,,,,oooops sorry, couldn't resist

Edited June 21, 2016 by Jaymo

[grrclark]

So much has been covered in the other threads in this topic that we are covering some very well trod ground, however in respect to the reaction of the market amidst speculation and polls, etc.

 

The people who play the money markets have one objective, to make as much money as they can. They are not interested in market stability as that lessens the likelihood to make large returns, uncertainty in the market increases risk, but it also increases reward for the bold and the brave.

 

There has been enough revelations over market manipulation over the last 20 years whether it be in commodities, currencies, interbank lending rates, short selling, insider trading, spread betting, etc that I am now always cynical and suspicious when we see a very sharp reaction in the market. Typically it will always reset after a few days when the shorters have changed their positions.

 

A better position to take is to consider the longer term trend relative to other factors. The FTSE has stayed relatively flat over the last year and there is no trending drop off in respect to the fear of Brexit. The pound against the dollar has dropped over the year, but that is relative to the growth of the US economy (that is very much a bubble) and the Fed increasing interest rates where the interest rates of the other reserve currencies remained the same or were reduced.

 

The saying is ask 100 economists a simple yes or no question and you will get 100 different answers in return and all of them complex and none of them answering the actual question.

 

Economics is part science and part philosophy, there is as much sociology involved as there is financial theory.

 

What has been proven with the turmoil in the global economy of the last 8 years is that no economic model or theory is particularly accurate. It is a bit like forecasting the weather, the more that is understood the more complex the prediction becomes as you introduce a previously unconsidered set of variables.

 

Look back at every single forecast from the BoE, the OBR, the IFS, the big 4 accounting firms, etc. Every single one is wrong in some way shape or form, even over a period as short as 1 month.

 

8 months ago the BoE were at the point of increasing interest rates at the turn of the year, there was a 60/40 split in votes of the MPC, within a month at the next meeting the vote was 90/10 because of unexpected market factors and external influence. Now there is speculation that any increase in rates could be well into 2017.

 

Within a scant 4 weeks the best financial minds at the BoE went from giving forward guidance to the market of a very likely increase in rates within 2 months to a change in position that means no increase in rates within 18 months, potentially there may even be a further round of quantitative easing. The polar opposite of what was thought.

 

If Trump was to become president that would significantly change any current global forecast that exists right now. If there was a change in policy from Saudi Arabia in respect to oil output that would significantly change any current global forecast. If China actually provided accurate and meaningful growth data the would change any global forecast. The widening of Zika virus in Brazil to a larger global footprint could change any current global forecast.

 

Forecast are exactly that, a best efforts guess based on the evidence of the past and a range case set of assumptions of what might happen. We can absolutely influence what happens next by the actions that we take today. By having full control of all the fiscal levers available to us we can absolutely and positively influence what happens next and as a result every single forecast of every single economist becomes inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

I once respected DC and GO, however I now cannot wait to see them both removed from their positions of influence. I believe that they have talked up uncertainty where none really existed and I think they are guilty of shameful irresponsibility.

Edited June 21, 2016 by grrclark

[Walker570]

I just want to be able to vote out a government at the end of five years if they do not come up to my expectations and object to a) not being able to do this and b) paying enormous, crazy salaries and pensions to the likes of Barroso, Kinnock, Juncker etc etc., and wipe the smug look off their faces. The only way to do that is to get out and start to run our own country again.

 

I am also tired of people coming on forums etc., and saying isn't it marvellous that the EU spent this on this road or that scientific experiment ....

 

WAKE UP !!! IT IS OUR MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING on this projects, when we should be deciding where our government spends OUR MONEY.

 

THE WASTE IN THE EU IS MIND BLOWING starting with that pathetic change of location every month, just because the French have their fingers up their back sides.

 

I am 76 in September so the future for me is not such a problem, but I do feel concerned about those young innocent kids who have been conned into supporting the United Soviet State of Europe. Their future in the system is bleak; ask any kid in Greece, Spain, Italy, Slovenia, Portugal, Croatia even France.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Walker570

[Deker]

No indecision for me......

 

IN.

 

Sorry boys, but not just as I live in France, but for many social, economic reason and my pension ( suppose that's economic too)

 

Whilst I can see the ideology of the 'Great Britain' that you wish for, I also believe in the valued opinions ( plus my own) of what a Strong economy really means to the UK

You can have the whole Island to yourselves but if you can't afford to import electricity, food and commodities it's going to be pretty bleak.

And yes, I do fear mass redundancies too.

 

Comments about the rich not caring about the NHS is ********, I have Private Medical indeed- however in an Emergency we all turn to the NHS, for which I'm truly grateful as it saved the lives of both of my boys.

But a country in a predicted recession ( even Boris is now apologising in advance in cas it happens) will do NO ONE any favours.

 

But either way, I have enjoyed reading some of the post for the National Front,,,,,,oooops sorry, couldn't resist

 

I wouldn't be too quick to assume your pension is safe even if the vote is in, there's only so much they can tax people and when the next countries come into the EU and again take out more than they put in you can guarantee they'll be looking at what they can tax or claim.

[KFC]

So much has been covered in the other threads in this topic that we are covering some very well trod ground, however in respect to the reaction of the market amidst speculation and polls, etc.

 

The people who play the money markets have one objective, to make as much money as they can. They are not interested in market stability as that lessens the likelihood to make large returns, uncertainty in the market increases risk, but it also increases reward for the bold and the brave.

 

There has been enough revelations over market manipulation over the last 20 years whether it be in commodities, currencies, interbank lending rates, short selling, insider trading, spread betting, etc that I am now always cynical and suspicious when we see a very sharp reaction in the market. Typically it will always reset after a few days when the shorters have changed their positions.

 

A better position to take is to consider the longer term trend relative to other factors. The FTSE has stayed relatively flat over the last year and there is no trending drop off in respect to the fear of Brexit. The pound against the dollar has dropped over the year, but that is relative to the growth of the US economy (that is very much a bubble) and the Fed increasing interest rates where the interest rates of the other reserve currencies remained the same or were reduced.

 

The saying is ask 100 economists a simple yes or no question and you will get 100 different answers in return and all of them complex and none of them answering the actual question.

 

Economics is part science and part philosophy, there is as much sociology involved as there is financial theory.

 

What has been proven with the turmoil in the global economy of the last 8 years is that no economic model or theory is particularly accurate. It is a bit like forecasting the weather, the more that is understood the more complex the prediction becomes as you introduce a previously unconsidered set of variables.

 

Look back at every single forecast from the BoE, the OBR, the IFS, the big 4 accounting firms, etc. Every single one is wrong in some way shape or form, even over a period as short as 1 month.

 

8 months ago the BoE were at the point of increasing interest rates at the turn of the year, there was a 60/40 split in votes of the MPC, within a month at the next meeting the vote was 90/10 because of unexpected market factors and external influence. Now there is speculation that any increase in rates could be well into 2017.

 

Within a scant 4 weeks the best financial minds at the BoE went from giving forward guidance to the market of a very likely increase in rates within 2 months to a change in position that means no increase in rates within 18 months, potentially there may even be a further round of quantitative easing. The polar opposite of what was thought.

 

If Trump was to become president that would significantly change any current global forecast that exists right now. If there was a change in policy from Saudi Arabia in respect to oil output that would significantly change any current global forecast. If China actually provided accurate and meaningful growth data the would change any global forecast. The widening of Zika virus in Brazil to a larger global footprint could change any current global forecast.

 

Forecast are exactly that, a best efforts guess based on the evidence of the past and a range case set of assumptions of what might happen. We can absolutely influence what happens next by the actions that we take today. By having full control of all the fiscal levers available to us we can absolutely and positively influence what happens next and as a result every single forecast of every single economist becomes inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

I once respected DC and GO, however I now cannot wait to see them both removed from their positions of influence. I believe that they have talked up uncertainty where none really existed and I think they are guilty of shameful irresponsibility.

It's the men that profit from moving the money who will have the biggest influence, not the EU

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1715277/soros-brexit-intervention-a-warning-or-a-bet

 

France owns our electricity, Germany owns our railways and Russia controls the gas markets.

 

I'll be voting out but, as I've said before, our government doesn't run our country anymore. Big business does so I don't think it will make much difference whichever way it goes.

 

Our only purpose is to be used circulate money to keep the rich in profit so 'they' won't let that stop and we'll be ok.

[rodp]

 

I wouldn't be too quick to assume your pension is safe even if the vote is in, there's only so much they can tax people and when the next countries come into the EU and again take out more than they put in you can guarantee they'll be looking at what they can tax or claim.

It will more than likely be worse if we stay in, the countries wanting to enter now are poverty stricken, they want in to be subsidised. Guess who's going to pay ? Still, if folk can't see that well they'll have to lie in the bed they make

[wymberley]

It will more than likely be worse if we stay in, the countries wanting to enter now are poverty stricken, they want in to be subsidised. Guess who's going to pay ? Still, if folk can't see that well they'll have to lie in the bed they make

So will everyone else but that's democracy for you!

[rodp]

So will everyone else but that's democracy for you!

True. Some folk can't see the wood for the trees though. All these poverty ridden countries with mass unemployment and hordes of muggers, rapists and convicts all waiting to come in.

Just why would you join a club that wants to support these out of members funds ? Do folk not realise we'll be keeping these down and outs for all eternity

[Deker]

It will more than likely be worse if we stay in, the countries wanting to enter now are poverty stricken, they want in to be subsidised. Guess who's going to pay ? Still, if folk can't see that well they'll have to lie in the bed they make

 

That's what I was trying to say

[Walker570]

punch in Guy verhotstadt on youtube ... yes his name is in low case and so is he in my opinion. He wants to rule the world. Frightening, but exactly why we should get OUT now whilst we have the chance.

[KFC]

I like this one

 

[simonb]

Having been firmly of the 'remain' inclination before all of the campaign BS purely due to economic concerns I found myself edging towards 'leave' due to the complete lack of an salient information from remain other than Camerons's 'the bogeyman will get you'.. However having closely watched the markets Friday and today as 'remain' is viewed as the likely outcome and the significant recovery I al now completely undecided. Is anyone else still yet to be convinced one way or another?

Why oh why does it all come down to economics? Do tradition, history, way of life,and standards count for nothing? Who cares about exports to which ever European state. In our own sport European firearms manufacturers will still sell to the UK and do we care what some Belgium/ German/ French commissioner thinks? And migrants? No I do not want migrants forcing their way into my country yes I do want them stopped by any means and returned. Do I care where they have come from or what they have gone thru? Not a jot. No I do not want areas of my country adopting sharia law we have now already have an Islamic Mayor of London's reaction to and decreeing on public advertising featuring women that HE thinks is not acceptable. I will vote leave not for me but for the younger generation who will still have England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland and not become an Islamic influenced state in Europe. Am I racist regarding migrants and Islam? Don't care.

[Jaymo]

Who is actually going to pay for Brexit?

 

New laws- thousands of them need to be ratified, someone has to pay the legal eagles

How many Passports are there in circulation that will need replacing due to the simple fact that they won't be valid as they say 'European' on them? Costs- runs into the hundreds of millions.

 

These are just two of the numerous costs involved.

 

For manufacturing and exports- currently we have 'CE' standards which means if it's made to this standard the item is acceptable under all EU countries laws and can be sold there.

Without this facility, each country will need separate approval which forces the cost to manufacture up and so making us much less competitive.

 

 

Back to the title of this post- the wife was voting 'out', however she saw a top legal expert giving a talk and it's opened her eyes as to what control we currently have over laws I,posed writhing the EU- seems we have far greater input that most think and 'nothing' happens in Brussles without the approval of the big '3', of which we are one.

 

There is sooooo much information that has not been clarified..........

Edited June 21, 2016 by Jaymo

[Savhmr]

Truth is we don't have any power in Europe. I've listened whilst folk have kept on about us having a voice and making our laws, but it's not that clear cut. The European Commission and committee have the power to make law, the Parliament to add their voice and vote but, crucially, not to make any decisions. The decisions and EU directives and laws are made behind closed doors by the unelected members of the commission in spite of what MEPs may vote, even if a majority. It's just how it works, ergo, our laws are dictated by unelected eurocrats, or at least 55 to 60% of them are. Whitehall civil servants just gold plate them and make sure we all tow the line.

 

As for the markets, being the world's 5th largest economy and with higher growth and lower unemployment than just about anywhere else in Europe makes us better placed to go it alone than just about any other country except perhaps Germany which has a healthier industrial base. It's seen to that, and at our expense, just as our farmers have been screwed by the CAP and the French.

 

There's not a lot we don't know about the EU as it's mostly a matter of public record if you care to look. Apathy rules though and the ever creeping closer of federalisation and arrogance of the EU and the Commission seemingly is boundless judging by the Millions of your money they've recently spend on white elephant including the new EU history building, a gilt edged abomination to the glory of the EU experiment, a pointless self gratification and expression of power.

 

The CE standards are largely meaningless as they are self certified. You could stick one on anything you make and sell it in the EU (where the CE mark is needed) and would only come unstuck if the product was audited. Why can't people get it through their skulls that the CE mark is proof of NOTHING! All those self igniting Chinese valve amps are testament to that

 

We will pay more by remaining in the EU longer term. Our kids will grow up in a country that we don't recognise ruled by people we don't know and will continue to fund the great EU gravy train until the bubble bursts and massive EU wide recession follows once the Eurozone collapses, as it will. On that day, al the "undecideds" will wish to hell they'd voted "out" when they had the chance.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Savhmr

[vole]

Cameron's referendum was a ploy too far to get him back into power . Stupid to hold an eu vote at the end of a recession. Why should we trust the governments now ? Mistakes all along . Iraq,Libya etc . They do not know best ,they are as clueless as the rest of us . He is a chancer . Out for me , his stupid policies and campaign decided me .

[KFC]

Boris just got a standing ovation in the debate.

 

May be wishful thinking but I thought the leave members of the audience seemed to be in the majority judging by the cheers.

 

out out out I say

[ElvisThePelvis]

So much has been covered in the other threads in this topic that we are covering some very well trod ground, however in respect to the reaction of the market amidst speculation and polls, etc.

 

The people who play the money markets have one objective, to make as much money as they can. They are not interested in market stability as that lessens the likelihood to make large returns, uncertainty in the market increases risk, but it also increases reward for the bold and the brave.

 

There has been enough revelations over market manipulation over the last 20 years whether it be in commodities, currencies, interbank lending rates, short selling, insider trading, spread betting, etc that I am now always cynical and suspicious when we see a very sharp reaction in the market. Typically it will always reset after a few days when the shorters have changed their positions.

 

A better position to take is to consider the longer term trend relative to other factors. The FTSE has stayed relatively flat over the last year and there is no trending drop off in respect to the fear of Brexit. The pound against the dollar has dropped over the year, but that is relative to the growth of the US economy (that is very much a bubble) and the Fed increasing interest rates where the interest rates of the other reserve currencies remained the same or were reduced.

 

The saying is ask 100 economists a simple yes or no question and you will get 100 different answers in return and all of them complex and none of them answering the actual question.

 

Economics is part science and part philosophy, there is as much sociology involved as there is financial theory.

 

What has been proven with the turmoil in the global economy of the last 8 years is that no economic model or theory is particularly accurate. It is a bit like forecasting the weather, the more that is understood the more complex the prediction becomes as you introduce a previously unconsidered set of variables.

 

Look back at every single forecast from the BoE, the OBR, the IFS, the big 4 accounting firms, etc. Every single one is wrong in some way shape or form, even over a period as short as 1 month.

 

8 months ago the BoE were at the point of increasing interest rates at the turn of the year, there was a 60/40 split in votes of the MPC, within a month at the next meeting the vote was 90/10 because of unexpected market factors and external influence. Now there is speculation that any increase in rates could be well into 2017.

 

Within a scant 4 weeks the best financial minds at the BoE went from giving forward guidance to the market of a very likely increase in rates within 2 months to a change in position that means no increase in rates within 18 months, potentially there may even be a further round of quantitative easing. The polar opposite of what was thought.

 

If Trump was to become president that would significantly change any current global forecast that exists right now. If there was a change in policy from Saudi Arabia in respect to oil output that would significantly change any current global forecast. If China actually provided accurate and meaningful growth data the would change any global forecast. The widening of Zika virus in Brazil to a larger global footprint could change any current global forecast.

 

Forecast are exactly that, a best efforts guess based on the evidence of the past and a range case set of assumptions of what might happen. We can absolutely influence what happens next by the actions that we take today. By having full control of all the fiscal levers available to us we can absolutely and positively influence what happens next and as a result every single forecast of every single economist becomes inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

I once respected DC and GO, however I now cannot wait to see them both removed from their positions of influence. I believe that they have talked up uncertainty where none really existed and I think they are guilty of shameful irresponsibility.

Brilliant thank you!

[bluesj]

With just a few hours to go I'm still undecided!

On the shooting side of things I'm on the remain side as Europe has done less to stop legal gun ownership and field sports in general than our own governments.

because of the fact I don't trust any politicians as far as I could through them I'm for leave, and leaving would get rid of a few layers of them!

But I may vote what ever way my son does as he is going to have to put up with the result longer that I will.