Chris Packham/Grouse Shooting - Merged Threads

[andrewluke]

have a listen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p044fnlg

[dodeer]

Problem is look at what they would turn into if they weren't managed...

 

I see that when I walk round my local bird reserves- low financed projects full of winged and four legged vermin, and in most cases moors would turn into sheep grazing

[robbiep]

The thing is, what else do you use the land for ?

There has been, over the last 20-30 years, an encroachment of grazing land onto what was moorland, purely to get some sort of return. Sheep or calves on the land, some being cut for silage/haylage, a little bit being left for hay in some cases. So all the other ground-nesting birds lose out then too.

When all that heather and moor gets turned into grass, a lot more than grouse lose their habitat.

[scolopax]

I am not saying no shooting, I am not saying no keepering. I am asking whether big bag driven grouse (and some bags if they were reared birds would raise eyebrows) is whiter than white in the ways and means it uses to achieve them?

[robbiep]

No, I don't think it is. There will always be a temptation for a keeper to maximise their return (and increase their job security) if suffering losses by BoPs to 'lessen' the problem by breaking the law.

 

Personally, I'd be very happy if Police, RSPB, etc. used trail cams more, and took out more prosecutions, and when people were caught, BASC et al were a lot more condemnatory in their statements and actions.

But the landscape lends itself to the law-breaker's advantage, the footage is often not of prosecutable quality, and the (probable) guilty parties seem to get away with it.

In cases where prosecutions have been brought (one Scottish case in particular) we've even seen the footage ruled inadmissable because the landowner's consent had not been sought for placing a camera which caught a keeper trapping and killing BoPs !

[Scully]

Beefy may be on our side and full marks for the effort, but he isn't fluid or articulate enough, it grieves me to say, when being interviewed.

Saying that, I thought his point that no prosecutions had taken place despite Packhams insistence that 'keepers were responsible for Harrier losses was a point worth making. Those who have their agenda will take the side which suits their bias, despite facts, but those who are indifferent may learn something.

As for the alleged carbon footprint of heather burning, I wonder what it is compared to the one which is currently taking place in Rio.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Scully

[Scully]

There will always be those who will break the law for personal gain, no matter in what field or industry they're involved, and I have no doubt there have been those who have done it for the sake of 'job security', but when you have a look at the figures I think they stand up to criticism and scrutiny very well.

As the GWCT have pointed out, on moors neglected for 20 years every bird species fell into severe decline, including Hen Harriers.

I can't claim it's a 'purely good thing' either, but is it a purely evil one? Don't the benefits for most of those involved outweigh the drawbacks?

It isn't just the grouse moors which are managed for the benefit of someone; the entire countryside is managed for the benefit of someone. Man has and is very very quick to capitalise on any and all opportunities to make money and something or someone will lose out or object as a result. That doesn't of course make it good, but does it make it bad?

[scotslad]

I see in that 1st piece linked had the classic about land owners 'rearing and releasing grouse' do the jornolisits never check any of there sources esp when the 2 sides are so openly disputing them, they can't both be right. And its not like the truth (well scientific peer reviewed evidence) is not that hard to find

 

Funny that once grouse moor and now barren wasteland owned by a certain birdy charity didn't take long to persecute 1 pair of eagle owls when they chose to nest there, but off course thats all ok as they occassionally eat HH's

[dodeer]

They don't rear and release Grouse..

I am not saying no shooting, I am not saying no keepering. I am asking whether big bag driven grouse (and some bags if they were reared birds would raise eyebrows) is whiter than white in the ways and means it uses to achieve them?

Edited August 12, 2016 by dodeer

[scolopax]

They don't rear and release Grouse..

Yep I know that, maybe I should have written, "and some bags if reared partridge or pheasants would raise eyebrows"

[scolopax]

Not even the alleged illegal activity.

 

I have read that red deer on some Scottish moors have been shot out as vermin, for passing on ticks to grouse, not managed, but eliminated.

 

One thing which looked bad to me a year or two back was a large area of grouse moor that was criss crossed with very new stone tracks, the plant was still there doing the road building, they were literally scars across the previously pristine landscape. All I presume to enable guns to drive to the butts etc, even I , very pro shooting, thought it looked terrible.

[Scully]

I can't comment on the red deer issue as I have no knowledge of it, but can vouch for roads being built on some moors as I know some of the people involved. However, the roads I know of are only on the periphery of the moors as they still use those ex Norwegian military articulated argo cat type vehicles to transport guns and beaters around here.

[Yellow Bear]

It is also time the "species culling" they do was publicized, it goes on but none of those involved says anything publically.

[scotslad]

If those new stone tracks lead to windmills would u be equally outraged?

Thats wot there doing all over the place up here. In a few yeas the tracks won't look as bad.

Are those tracks any worse than some of the paths caused by hill walkers in some popular places? Plus pretty sure u need planning now for new tracks

 

Not really sure wot ur wanting anyone to say. U've done some reading but not convinced but i doubt anything said on the thread is going to convince u either.

Best to have a look throu the GWCT website esp the upland stuff and research they've done or moorland assoc or heather trust.

 

Some of the bigger english moors are killing large numbers in a day but if they didn't kill those large numbers the grouse would likely starve to death anyway.

There thriving to such a degree because the habitat is so good and predation is minimal, wot do u suggest they don't do as much habitat work so they have less grouse?

When u drive throu these grouse areas wild birds are thriving, plenty of wild pheasants, grey partridges all ur waders, rng ouzels, black game all thriving because of thelack of predators.

I'm involved with a local nature reserve that (like most will) actually does more harm to local wildlife, it does some habitat work and puts out feed yet refuses to control vermin and wonders why birds produce very few yung and tend to get eaten?

Also while they might be managing it for grouse any other bird/mammal that was evolved in the same ecosystem as grouse will also flourish as well as any ground nesting birds including the HH.

I'm sure there is stats from last year where all the succesful HH nest last year in eng where on keepered grouse moors

 

I've beat and picked up on 1 scottish moor that has fenced and shot all the deer off it, the problem in scotland is ticks carry louping ill which kills the grouse, so on some moors they do have to shoot the deer hard. But i don't think louping ill is a problem on all moors, so some don't bother the deer to much

But most that do also fence aswell unlike SNH, JMT and most forestry companies now, these 'conservation' charities and forestry companies create perfect wintering habitat for deer then hammer them when they go anywhere near the trees, it's an absolute disgrace.

The JMT shot 86 stags last year and left then to rot on the hill with no effort to exracrt them

 

The red deer in scotland have far bigger problems than from grouse moor owners the way they are treated by government bodies and 'conservation charities' is far worse and not even creating any work/revinue for the areas.

 

 

Grouse shooting may not be perfect but the few negatives (are mostly hakf truths anyway) are far outweghed by the positives, if they banned grouse shooting these moors would be in a far worse position, something like 75% of worlds heatherland in UK.

Its not just about the shooting either, i know quite a few moors/landowners that employ grouse keepers that have never shot for 10yrs and likely never will, but its enough to keep the grouse and black grouse, waders still there in decent numbers. Owners are obviously rich but must cost thema fortune to keeper them when really have no hope of shooting them but they do s its the right thing to do for environment

 

If grouse shooting was banned wot alternative have u for the land? Sheep grazing would destroy the heather if ur trying to make it commercially vaible or forestry, some ground may be to acidic/wet/high for trees anyway but would destry the peat, affect the carbon storage and increase run off speed=flooding downstrean

And even just leaving it to grow ank is not really a real option, as shown on ilkely moor (let for shooting as no management wasn't working and a big wild fire risk) or up at the Langholm study, since they've started keepering up there boidiversity has jumped massively (althou stil no grouse)

 

So probably a neccessary evil even if u don't believe/like shooting, anyone who actually shoots its the only form of sustainable shooting in UK now in my mind far more morally defendable than partridge or pheasant shooting

Edited August 12, 2016 by scotslad

[JDog]

Scolopax the premise of your argument is wrong. The management of upland areas for grouse benefits other species greatly, as does the pest control on those areas.

 

Rank heather is good for nothing. When the grouse have gone so too will the hen harriers, foxes, golden eagles (admittedly in Scotland only) and many other species which depend on the varied habitat that grouse management provides.

[felly100]

A tweet from M&S

I hope they haven't buckled.

[old man]

Come on chaps, just how could Beefy out talk a professional motor mouth like Packham?

 

Packham has had months to prepare his diatribe whereas Beefy was put there last minute because no one else had the spine?

 

The longer the BBC allow this bias to continue will just mean hopefully it gets broken up all of the sooner?

[ben0850]

Have to agree with Scotslad and Jdog, our farm is on a shooting estate, we border the grouse moor and have sheep gates on it.

We have more wildlife, bird species like lapwings, curlews, plovers, owls, BOP, song birds etc than you can shake a stick at.

Grouse shooting isn't perfect and at times is its own worst enemy (indeed a stupid idiot on this very estate was prosecuted for a pole trap and sacked on the spot)...BUT...for me the positives far outweighs the negatives.

[scotslad]

Felly. Is that tweet saying M&S aren't stocking grouse because there numbers are not sustainable?

 

If numbers where not sustainable the shoot/estate would not be shooting full stop, the fact there shooting means there must be a shootable surplus so any birds shot are 100% sustainable.

The estate will stop shooting when they get down to the winter carrying capacity for their moor, wether thats 1, 20 or 50 days depends on the moor and the weather among other things.

 

Sadly seems a bit of a cop out by m&S to me if thats the case.

 

Probably never been so many grouse going throu game dealers as the last 10 years, about 8ish years ago moors were getting 16quid a brace for august grouse from dealers, now down to a fraction of that as so many moors have been consistanly producing lots off grouse for last 10 years

[Scully]

No reports on numbers around here as yet, with the exception of the Shap 'island' moor as mentioned on the radio, which will only have one shoot day.

[felly100]

M&S keep their suppliers identity out of the public domain so I don know.

Apparently Mark Avery was waiting to buy the first grouse and have its lead levels checked.

The antis just seem so much more media savvy to me.

[scotslad]

That man is a complete ******, definately media savvy but u can only tell the same lies so many times. The problem is until now he's been getting away with his lies, likes of Beefy and i thnk some orgs are seeing this and beginning to go on the attack more.

I do think the public are beginning to see throu them more and more

 

I have no idea the numbers of grouse m&s would expect to sell, but there is plenty of moors shooting 5000 brace plus a season, even in a bad season u would still have large numbers of grouse going to game dealers.

All depends if they want to pay the going rate, if they really wanted them they could sell them

 

Dunno wot his idea of buying it to check lead levels are?

Not illegal to shoot grouse with lead. Been plenty of previous scietific studies never found any problem with it no doubt wot ever he buys wil be full of it. Wouldn't put it past him to take the oven ready bird out and get someone to shoot it again just to get extra lead pellets in it

[JDog]

Don't you see that Avery is trying to move the lead shot ban over wetlands to the moors? A lot of the RSPB ninnies will not know the difference. 'How terrible' they will say, 'I thought it had been banned'. Grouse shooting has got to be stopped they will say.

 

All of the confusion will just aid the antis cause.

[felly100]

And that's why our spokespersons need the same or higher level of media training.

Portraying anti shooters as extremists is the wrong tack.

They're in the majority.

We need some kind of charm offensive.

[kevin55]

The Glorious Twelfth No Fishing Now Allowed

A reminder that the grouse shooting season has now started and that most hill lakes and tarns are now out of bounds for fishing and must be avoided. The grouse season got off to a wet and windy start today, but that did not stop the dedicated and hardy. My own bag was not at all bad under such conditions and the higher water produced some lovely fresh salmon for our fishing guests. The opening evening Ball and Banquet is much anticipated. We have a chef up from London to prepare the grouse.

There is still some confusion regarding access. Remember that the right to roam DOES NOT include a right to fish and that disturbance or disruption of legal activities such as shooting can be criminally prosecuted under the UK wide Aggravated Trespass laws.

It can be confusing but things are set to become much clearer and simpler as the Edinburgh Government has promised Sporting Estates new laws to protect our fishing rights under the criminal law. This is very fair, common sense, welcome and clear. There will be no fishing on most hill lakes and tarns and the few where fishing may be allowed will require full written permission to be obtained PRIOR to commencing to fish. The Edinburgh Government should be credited for this excellent new legislation.

This was posted yesterday on flyfishing.co.uk, the tone doesn't seem to have been appreciated

Edited August 13, 2016 by kevin55