poontang Posted April 9, 2017 Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 Still a great institution but in my view, too many managers, not enough front line troops. Simply not true. Less than 2.5% of NHS staff are managers or senior managers. Take into account the size and complexity of the organisation (it's not just healthcare involved) and it's understandable that there needs to be a robust system of management. The question really is whether that management is effective, and generally I would say it's pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted April 9, 2017 Report Share Posted April 9, 2017 Surely the percentage is irrelevant, it's the actual number that counts? Sis in law and several other friends work at different levels within the NHS and it's a big part of their issues that there seems to be too many managers. As i say just my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Haven't read it all yet but would have to say the treatment my wife and self have received over the years has been brilliant. My sad observation is that it is being run down and given to their mates to make profit from? All ambulances here now have a private logo, labelled of course as working with the NHS, amazing how it's possible or ethical to make a profit under those circumstances? Having been to New Cross Hospital lately I wonder why anyone sane would want to work there. The influx at A & E far exceeds what double the staff could cope with with double the facilities. Abuse is commonplace when some don't get the immediate treatment they expect, others wander in, book in then clear off when they get bored? Probably can't be bothered with a GP or can't get an appointment? My prediction, is that there will be a lot of p***** off plebs soon when we have to buy health insurance but as the saying goes we get what we deserve? It won't be here for long and for any who think private is best, from my personal experience what happens when the chips are really down is they they dial 999 and ship you out while they can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Surely the percentage is irrelevant, it's the actual number that counts? Sis in law and several other friends work at different levels within the NHS and it's a big part of their issues that there seems to be too many managers. As i say just my view. A lot of this problem is down to PC carp --- The person who organised the ward staff used to be called the ward Sister, pc/sexism cuts in and they now the ward manager -- on a unit with say 20 wards, with no change in personnel there are now 20 more"managers", and so it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) There's a serious problem on the NHS where they are almost untouchable. I've seen entire wards that are absolutely useless yet it goes on and on. Anyone who speaks out against them gets shot down. It's political suicide to take them on. The NHS needs serious reform or it won't last. But like the unions. They think they're too big. Hooray! sense at last! The NHS is totally out of control, wastes money on a truly eye watering scale, riddled with abuse and fraud, but you can't say anything because you will be shouted down and called every name under the sun. Edited April 10, 2017 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbob Posted April 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 My bosses wife is a blood nurse she goes round a hospital getting blood samples and making sure they get tested and the results get back to whoever requested them , there where originally 6 to cover the hospital now there's just her if she doesn't work seven days a week the sample requests just wait till shes back on shift . my mate who has cancer for the third time discharges himself after the operations so he doesnt have to stay in hospital over the weekend the last time he was on the third floor the windows couldnt be opened one tv in a six bedded ward and a old bed blocker thought the remote was his , my mate buys a £700 parker recliner chair and sleeps down stairs because he cant get up the stairs hes in pain and says its better than being there with the old goats LOL Something needs done maybe the biggest clear out in history first bed blocking then maybe insurance, Theres reports of folk flying in getting treatment and flying out leaving a huge bill unpaid has to be a thing of the past . The chart that says everybody will be seen in four hours of entering a hospital only puts more pressure on the system which needs more staff and it should should be patient care first , but then people will ask about firemen /women and the police ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 I popped a disc in 1987, it was continualy misdiagnosed by various gp's for the next 18 years by which time.3 of my discs have dried out and crumbled and two more discs have protrusions along with all the other associated problems that causes(muscle spasms, arthritis etc.). Finally I demanded an mri scan and got the correct diagnosis but due to the excessive amount of damaged caused over the years the surgeons run a mile and nobody will touch me with a bardge pole. I have as much reason as anybody to moan and bitch about the NHS as I'm now on industrial Strength painkillers for the rest of my life, unable to do 80% of the things I used to do or want to do and hoping I don't end up in a wheelchair anytime soon. Despite all these personal problems that I am reminded of by the daily agonising pain I suffer that could have been avoided I will still stand up and fight tooth and nail for our NHS as they do a near Impossible job on a shoestring budget under difficult circumstances 24/7. they aren't perfect but they are better than 99% of other countries have, of course you will get a better service if you pay privately as they have huge budgets to work with but the NHS on the whole do a brilliant job and we would be seriously stuffed without them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 I popped a disc in 1987, it was continualy misdiagnosed by various gp's for the next 18 years by which time.3 of my discs have dried out and crumbled and two more discs have protrusions along with all the other associated problems that causes(muscle spasms, arthritis etc.). Finally I demanded an mri scan and got the correct diagnosis but due to the excessive amount of damaged caused over the years the surgeons run a mile and nobody will touch me with a bardge pole. I have as much reason as anybody to moan and bitch about the NHS as I'm now on industrial Strength painkillers for the rest of my life, unable to do 80% of the things I used to do or want to do and hoping I don't end up in a wheelchair anytime soon. Despite all these personal problems that I am reminded of by the daily agonising pain I suffer that could have been avoided I will still stand up and fight tooth and nail for our NHS as they do a near Impossible job on a shoestring budget under difficult circumstances 24/7. they aren't perfect but they are better than 99% of other countries have, of course you will get a better service if you pay privately as they have huge budgets to work with but the NHS on the whole do a brilliant job and we would be seriously stuffed without them No offence mate but this is part of the problem. I'd say you've had a terrible service, my father had the exact same except after 3 years of wrong diagnosis and being fobbed off he paid to go private and was in surgery within a week, otherwise he'd have been in a wheelchair! It's not wrong to say 'We can't continue as is' and think of reform. People who want to fight 'tooth and nail' just keep us in limbo. A service trying to provide too much with too little. We need to have a critical look and decide, do we want to all pay more, or do we want to provide less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 My wife (an NHS nurse of varying types for 30+ years) has just read out part of a leaked report stating that there is expected to be a nursing shortfall of between 26-42 thousand nurses within 5 years due to EU nurses not being allowed following brexit. There is a shortage of nurses but why did they shut all the nurse's schools? Years ago every hospital had a nurses school attached to it and they trained their own nurses. Today its very hard to get a place at a UNIVERSITY to study nursing. Thousands of girls who would love to be a nurse can't get a place. The answer to that appears very simple to me. I don't see why Brexit will affect the number of nurses because it won't stop them coming from Europe. Having had a relative in hospital for the past few weeks I would say most of the nurses came from non EU countries anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 do we want to all pay more, or do we want to provide less? Third option? provide the same level of service per £ as a commercial health care provider would have to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysinaweek Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 There is a shortage of nurses but why did they shut all the nurse's schools? Years ago every hospital had a nurses school attached to it and they trained their own nurses. Today its very hard to get a place at a UNIVERSITY to study nursing. Thousands of girls who would love to be a nurse can't get a place. The answer to that appears very simple to me. I don't see why Brexit will affect the number of nurses because it won't stop them coming from Europe. Having had a relative in hospital for the past few weeks I would say most of the nurses came from non EU countries anyway nurse numbers have continued to fall for the last 15 years or so, the successive goverment have been well aware of the shortfall of staff, from the mid 90s and onward many thousands of nurses reached retirement age more than any previous period. The royal college of nursing lobbied parliment with its concerns re the growing shortfall of staff versus increasing demand patient numbers and promises to increase nurse numbers trained within this country have fallen well short of what is needed. Number of nurses of trained nurses and midwifes peaked around 2007 at approx 675,000 with little increase despite patient demand increasing sigificantly. From the 1st of April 2017 (this month) a non bursary system comes into force for all student nurses, so from last week if you wish to train as a nurse you will have to take out a personal student loan for £27,000 over the 3 years. Previously student nurses received a funded bursary to train. The goverment says the new system will allow for many more self funded applicants into nursing as the training bursary was capped at 10,000 places a year so limited the amount nurses to be trained each year though the numbers of 10,000 a year have never been reached year on year. Only the future will tell if the new system will draw in more student nurses? My daughter started the nhs nurse Cadetship last year, she is seventeen, two year course the hopefully into university for the three years to complete her nurse training. The Cadetship is ran by nhs northwest and is the only one in the northwest, out of the 300-400 applicants per year there are only twenty places. She went to help out last month at this years open day for the course and 9 people turned up, usually a couple of hundred. I took her to the same day last year and the hall was rammed with applicants all for the same course. The tutors are worried to death i am told. re shutting the schools vince, nursing has moved on massively in the last twenty years, nurses now undertake many of the roles that doctors did traditionally, better tech and evidence based medicine and research has increased our diagnosis, understanding and management of a lot more things. Hospitals grew bigger and some went for teaching status so they could offer training in more evidence based and specialist areas for nurses. works like a business the money follows the patient, if you can train your nurses to a higher standard, patient care benefits at point of need, you can charge for specialist services and make efficiency savings, lots of nurse led clinics now. Some of the smaller hospitals could ot compete or survive, some got absorbed and some died. There will always be pros and cons. atb 7diaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) I can agree with that up to a point but to make up the shortfall we recruit nurses (and doctors) desperately from all over the world with very variable levels of qualification and competence without asking anywhere like enough questions. My OH works in the NHS and the range of abilities among these foreign doctors and nurses is worrying, to put it politely Edited April 10, 2017 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysinaweek Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) I can agree with that up to a point but to make up the shortfall we recruit nurses (and doctors) desperately from all over the world with very variable levels of qualification and competence without asking anywhere like enough questions. My OH works in the NHS and the range of abilities among these foreign doctors and nurses is worrying, to put it politely i can also agree to a point agree vince, i myself have worked with nurses from overseas, in fact i worked with some of the very first to be mainstreamed into the nhs as adaption nurses approx 25 years ago and saw some truly worrying practice and poor knowledge and skills which i highlighted as huge patient safety was put at risk as the system at the time was not robust to ensure safety. Quantity over quality was the order of the day. Nurses trained in the uk benchmark for the rest of the world as we are leaders in nursing skills. Nowhere in any place in the world do nurses carry out such an array of differing competencies, skills and knowledge at such a level of autonomy and that is why they are in such demand outside the uk. Nurses from overseas prior to arriving in 2014 were exempt from many the professional checks for safe practise from the nmc (nursing and midwifery council) which our trained nurses have to fulfil . Concerns raised over the next few years and now applicants have to now meet a more rigorous application both clinical and knowledge based. The test hopes to demonstrate that the nurse has the basic nurses skills which any staff nurse would have achieved at the time of qualifying. In an ideal world we would have no need to look outside our own isle, however we are were are in a bit of a pickle and patient demand is increasing day on day. As you are probably aware the nhs is being privatised at an alarming rate which is unprecedented, i myself have just dodged getting privatised however a load of my colleagues have not. The nhs simply cannot continue to deliver in its current state and the wheels are coming off. Edited April 10, 2017 by 7daysinaweek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wb123 Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Third option? provide the same level of service per £ as a commercial health care provider would have to? The trouble with this argument is that the nhs is already significantly more efficient per pound than any private system one can compare to. Why would we expect a commercial provider to provide a higher level of service per pound if it has not yet been managed elsewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbob Posted April 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 So Insurance like America might be the way to go ? you get what you pay for ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmaxphil Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 In answer to bed blocking two reasons, social services cut backs and closures of local community hospitals so it's care in the community or a stay in an acute hospital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 So Insurance like America might be the way to go ? you get what you pay for ?. Well, insurance like Holland might be nearer the ideal example. Yes though you get what you pay for is not such a bad idea IMO. Even in Ireland you have to pay to see GP or visit A&E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 In answer to bed blocking two reasons, social services cut backs and closures of local community hospitals so it's care in the community or a stay in an acute hospital If they charged per night for hospital stays the relatives would soon make arrangements to get them home. A lot of bed blocking is granny dumping. When my mother was in hospital last year the time from being told she could go home to actually getting her papers signed was about 36 hours. Man I know of aged 40 broke his leg in a dirt bike accident but his discharge was delayed for days until Occupational Health visited his house to 'check it over' total waste of time and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 When my wife was in hospital, a 'lady' in the next bed to her was there for 4 weeks. She was evicted from a women's refuge, then became 'ill'. She demanded everything from the nurses/doctors, and was even told that there was nothing wrong with her. She then became even more 'ill'. I'm not sure how much longer she stayed at the hospital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Regarding the new nurse funding system, despite being controversial many students will be better off whilst at university. My friends currently get the bursary which is approx £450 a month a think. Their rent is about £500. So they're £50 short before they've even had food, book, travel, bills etc. They've said on student finance they'll have more debt but they'll also be able to live better and not have to work bank shifts as care assistants as much. Controversial really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Foreign doctors 'more likely to be probed for incompetence than British-trained medics' https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/790269/foreign-doctors-more-likely-investigated-incompetence-than-british-trained-medics/amp Sent via @updayUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footu Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Because he or she is allowed to do whatever they like in their spare time. Nurses and doctors are not owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footu Posted April 10, 2017 Report Share Posted April 10, 2017 Spot on. Same for any profession. My wife has been in hospital for the last month, they have saved her life on around 5 occasions in that time and its not cost a penny. The staff are overworked and cuts coming all the time, so expect non urgent lists to get longer. Don't think of your ni payments as a right to immediate care in all cases. Just in urgent cases, want better service pay a premium and go private,then you can have whatever you want at the market price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 11, 2017 Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 Foreign doctors 'more likely to be probed for incompetence than British-trained medics' https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/790269/foreign-doctors-more-likely-investigated-incompetence-than-british-trained-medics/amp Sent via @updayUK I think that is very revealing. They imply its language difficulties but its clear what they really mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbob Posted April 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2017 Im all for insurance saw the consultant this morning he reckons i need a mri scan as its not the ligaments i was being treated for over the last three months . need to go to Glasgow as Falkirk who can also do the scan wont get back in time for him to see me and operate next week as after that hes on call for two weeks to the NHS . So the next point if you want to opt out the system and go private you still get your National Insurance payments deducted Why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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