Fire

[Vince Green]

The unpalatable truth no 1, Fire regs did not require that building to be fitted with sprinklers so nobody can be blamed. No requirement, no budget

 

The unpalatable truth no 2 No specs for what is fitted to the outside of buildings but Celotex RS5000 PIR thermal insulation is an industry standard. so not a controversial choice.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Vince Green

[JimLondon]

Sounds like it shouldn't be used on buildings over 10metres tall..

Another thing that worries me is the building was taller than is reachable by the fire service. Soo what happens if tge fire started up the top? Okay evacuation would be easier but still it would take hold and spread with no means of extinguishing to start

As a youngster I was told that buildings were only made to a height that could be reached by the Snorkel type extended ladder/tower tenders.

What changed? (Apart from over-population, profiteering, several property booms, lack of public housing stock since right to buy/lack of re-investment in housing with the right to buy revenue, unchecked immigration, urban population manipulation by several Labour governments, etc.)

Buildings over a certain height have dry risers fitted so if a fire started say on the top floor, fire crews would make their way to 2 floors below with the equipment to fight the fire, plug into the dry riser, go up to the effected floor and fight the fire, under normal circumstances the fire is isolated to the compartment (flat).

[ShootingEgg]

 

Buildings over a certain height have dry risers fitted so if a fire started say on the top floor, fire crews would make their way to 2 floors below with the equipment to fight the fire, plug into the dry riser, go up to the effected floor and fight the fire, under normal circumstances the fire is isolated to the compartment (flat).

Would this building not of had that due to its age then?

[JohnfromUK]

Would this building not of had that due to its age then?

Not an expert, but I'm pretty sure some photos of the interior (post disaster) showed fire hoses (presumably in lower levels) coupled to a dry riser.

[Gordon R]

The truth? It was an accident waiting to happen, sad, but the real blame goes back 40 years.

 

 

On the money - again, Vince.

[ditchman]

Not an expert, but I'm pretty sure some photos of the interior (post disaster) showed fire hoses (presumably in lower levels) coupled to a dry riser.

 

 

there was a report that the dry risers were stuffed as yobs had been nicking the brass couplings for scrap..........

[JohnfromUK]

 

 

there was a report that the dry risers were stuffed as yobs had been nicking the brass couplings for scrap..........

That may well be correct;

 

As I understand the dry riser system, there is an inlet at the bottom of the building (the breeching inlet), typically in a car park. The fire engine pump couples to this and pumps from the hydrant into the dry riser (which is typically in the stairwell/lift shaft area). At each floor the ones I have seen have a 'landing valve' consisting of a big (3"?) brass 'tap' to which the fire hose carried up by the firemen is coupled. The ones I have seen use about a 8" wheel type valve made of brass.

Apparently another problem is that IF the valves have been tampered with and are open on another floor (esp one that is inaccessible due to fire) and are open, then pressure cannot be developed in the dry riser and the water all pours out in the wrong place ...........

[JimLondon]

Would this building not of had that due to its age then?

No it should have had either a dry or wet riser, I'd think probably dry. But as has been already posted it may have been vandalised or valves left open which totally knackers it if the open valve is below the intended valve. They are subjected to a periodic inspection and may have been one of the fire safety concerns raised by the tenants.

[ShootingEgg]

No it should have had either a dry or wet riser, I'd think probably dry. But as has been already posted it may have been vandalised or valves left open which totally knackers it if the open valve is below the intended valve. They are subjected to a periodic inspection and may have been one of the fire safety concerns raised by the tenants.

Cheers for clarifying, not in any shape or form my area of expertise..

[toxo]

There's already much regulation to prevent such things happening. Why these regulations aren't enforced is beyond me.

 

What I do know is that more people will die if an effiecient escape method is not installed in all high rise buildings. A costly fire escape all the way up would do. But a modified chute of some kind would be so cheap to install.

 

The mesh offshore rig mentioned by scollopax sounds very good. You could even just have the holding structure on the roof with an emergency chute standing by to be deployed anywhere it's need.

 

As for "Who would deploy it" and "What if people don't know how to use it" leave me speechless. Imagine yourself on the 6th floor with the air around you quite literally being sucked out of the room. The heat unbearable. Your clothes about to spontaneously combust.

 

If a helicopter dangled a rope in front of me I'd be grateful let alone a safety chute.

[JimLondon]

There's already much regulation to prevent such things happening. Why these regulations aren't enforced is beyond me.

 

What I do know is that more people will die if an effiecient escape method is not installed in all high rise buildings. A costly fire escape all the way up would do. But a modified chute of some kind would be so cheap to install.

 

The mesh offshore rig mentioned by scollopax sounds very good. You could even just have the holding structure on the roof with an emergency chute standing by to be deployed anywhere it's need.

 

As for "Who would deploy it" and "What if people don't know how to use it" leave me speechless. Imagine yourself on the 6th floor with the air around you quite literally being sucked out of the room. The heat unbearable. Your clothes about to spontaneously combust.

 

If a helicopter dangled a rope in front of me I'd be grateful let alone a safety chute.

Now imagine your a refugee mother who speaks no English has 2 or 3 petrified small children crying their eyes. Just because you would know what to do doesn't mean everyone else does. Speechless indeed Edited June 19, 2017 by JimLondon

[Mice!]

If its bad enough that people are jumping from buildings I'm pretty sure you would figure out and follow someone down a shute.

[toxo]

Now imagine your a refugee mother who speaks no English has 2 or 3 petrified small children crying their eyes. Just because you would know what to do doesn't mean everyone else does. Speechless indeed

 

Now imagine your a refugee mother who speaks no English has 2 or 3 petrified small children crying their eyes. Just because you would know what to do doesn't mean everyone else does. Speechless indeed

Now I'm even more speechless!!

 

Certain death behind you and you can't take the only way out cos you can't speak english???

[KB1]

Good ol' social media……. Where would we be without the Kangaroo Courts & Armchair Experts

[JimLondon]

Now I'm even more speechless!!

 

Certain death behind you and you can't take the only way out cos you can't speak english???

Ok let's assume language has no relevance whatsoever, the point is that you seem to think that anyone regardless of gender,age or ability would, in a state of sheer panic, know what to do, and where to go.

 

I can tell you I've searched smoke filled rooms in breathing apparatus and when I've gone back in after the fire couldn't believe how small the search area actually was, and that was with years of firefighting experience.

 

Now put young children separated from parents,elderly and disabled in a fire situation and you still think they would know what to do?

 

YouTube escape chute testing 200509. Trained professionals testing with no fear or panic, put that chute down the side of a tower block that's 96% alight.

Edited June 19, 2017 by JimLondon

[toxo]

Ok let's assume language has no relevance whatsoever, the point is that you seem to think that anyone regardless of gender,age or ability would, in a state of sheer panic, know what to do, and where to go.

 

I can tell you I've searched smoke filled rooms in breathing apparatus and when I've gone back in after the fire couldn't believe how small the search area actually was, and that was with years of firefighting experience.

 

Now put young children separated from parents,elderly and disabled in a fire situation and you still think they would know what to do?

 

YouTube escape chute testing 200509. Trained professionals testing with no fear or panic, put that chute down the side of a tower block that's 96% alight.

 

First of all, don't put words into my mouth. I don't assume anything. You're doing enough assuming for all of us.

 

What ticks me off is that I was trying to come up with a solution to a problem and people like you have to put your oar in with absolutely nothing constructive to say.

 

We can all come up with impossible situations but how will that help get people out of burning buildings?

 

I'm guessing those outlined in red above only arrived yesterday, and one of em is in a wheelchair, one on crutches with only one leg and two of em are blind right?

.

[JohnfromUK]

In the videos I have seen on TV and on line, the burning external cladding might have made external escape (chutes, ladders etc) highly risky/impossible.

[Yellow Bear]

Genuine Question - this morning the report is that £xxx has been handed out to 180 families from the block - I thought there were only 120 flats - where have the other 60 come from even allowing for a few of the surrounding buildings were effected?

[Twistedsanity]

If you fancy getting your tinfoil hat on and do a building control search an application was made 3 years ago for"demolition" of that tower, make of that what you will

[Vince Green]

Genuine Question - this morning the report is that £xxx has been handed out to 180 families from the block - I thought there were only 120 flats - where have the other 60 come from even allowing for a few of the surrounding buildings were effected?

Because of the pressure on housing a lot of the social housing in London has overcrowding with extra unauthorised people staying in the flats, extended family, lodgers, sofa surfers and sub letting rooms. That could be an explanation to your question. My bet is the council didn't have a clue who was living there.

 

Another problem that has been reported is sorting out the number of false claimants just trying to get in on the act. Now they are handing out money you can see why.

 

Mind you, if that's the case, I don't see why they are paying money to people who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Vince Green

[toxo]

In the videos I have seen on TV and on line, the burning external cladding might have made external escape (chutes, ladders etc) highly risky/impossible.

 

A very valid point and I don't know the answer.

 

I started this train of thought with the scenario where the fire has started quite low down. If it started high then many can get out. I was just imagining how many could be saved by a helicopter with a chute on a high wire (ie. not static) versus the time taken by fire engines getting through traffic and getting ladders into position which may not be long enough anyway.

[JohnfromUK]

 

I was just imagining how many could be saved by a helicopter with a chute on a high wire (ie. not static) versus the time taken by fire engines getting through traffic and getting ladders into position which may not be long enough anyway.

I am (once again!) no expert in helicopters, but suspect round tall buildings in a fire situation the updraughts/air currents would be too dangerous for any close approach, plus of course the huge downdraught from the helicopter would blow burning panel bits about and possibly make things worse. Happy to be shown to be wrong, but I suspect a helicopter would have too many risks.

 

My fire training did teach me that the fire services (UK and worldwide) have done a lot of research and modelling - and benefited from real life lessons learned ....... the result being the 'stay in place unless in immediate danger' policy. In the vast majority of cases, this is the right thing and has probably saved lives over many years (and indeed we hear now that in this case the original fridge fire was quickly and easily extinguished internally) - but disastrously not before it had spread to the outside. Sadly, it seems this case, with the flammable outside and plastic windows was an unforeseen exception - where 'get out fast' would have been the right thing.

 

But hindsight is a wonderful thing

Edited June 20, 2017 by JohnfromUK

[toxo]

I am (once again!) no expert in helicopters, but suspect round tall buildings in a fire situation the updraughts/air currents would be too dangerous for any close approach, plus of course the huge downdraught from the helicopter would blow burning panel bits about and possibly make things worse. Happy to be shown to be wrong, but I suspect a helicopter would have too many risks.

 

My fire training did teach me that the fire services (UK and worldwide) have done a lot of research and modelling - and benefited from real life lessons learned ....... the result being the 'stay in place unless in immediate danger' policy. In the vast majority of cases, this is the right thing and has probably saved lives over many years (and indeed we hear now that in this case the original fridge fire was quickly and easily extinguished internally) - but disastrously not before it had spread to the outside. Sadly, it seems this case, with the flammable outside and plastic windows was an unforeseen exception - where 'get out fast' would have been the right thing.

 

But hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

Can't disagree with any of that. I did think about up/downdraft but I was thinking early stages, long enough cable etc.

 

I do know that a solution will be found eventually. Probably not in my lifetime but it won't be found if we don't start looking for it.

 

The blame game is not the way. The legislation is there and it's easy to find someone to blame but there will always be excuses or even mitigating circumstances and if there isn't the lawyers will stretch things out til it get buried in bureaucracy and mired in faded memories or the culprit is too old/ill to testify.

[pinfireman]

I know! I heard it on the radio at lunch time. How low can you get?

Oh, he will get a lot lower before he,s done! He,s a nasty piece of work............

[pinfireman]

I heard on the radio that the building inspection that used to be done by the local councils has to a large degree been farmed out to privet companies and a lot of it is now self regulated by the big building companies.

 

what the hell is going on with this country they cut the armed police they cut the police they cut the customs and immigration staff they shut down all of the council old peoples homes everything gets privatized so that profit can be made by a well off few while the country goes down the plug hole.

It,s what happens when the country is left virtually bankrupt............remember 2008? The money has to come from somewhere, or the alternative is a large hike in Income Tax, and no government will do that, it,s political suicide!